Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Maybe a shotgun is better for home defense...

I really want to get a VR80.

30 carbine W/ 1911 backup

I’m of the heavy birdshot backed by #3 buck philosophy. Cylinder bore is good. Fella that has experience in the field has little problem shooting airborne quail in the noggin when they’re in close. People in the nightlights aren’t a tough target. Anyone thinking a load of turkey shot at 15-20’ isn’t lethal needs to smoke something else.

Where space to maneuver is available, long guns with proper ammo selection are virtually always a better choice than hand guns.

However, I’ll point out a lot of the issues with scoring hits on home invaders at close range are simply due to lack of training, skills and practice on the part of the homeowners.

Anyone who wants to be even moderately competent with a handgun needs to be training all the time. Frequent dry fire and presentation practice couple with not-infrequent live fire training are needed, live fire training should include drills beyond simply bullseye shooting.

People who cannot (or will not) devote significant training time to handguns should really consider them range toys IMHO.

I have an 870 12 gauge, 20 inch barrel, loaded with 3 inch Double B's. I figure it this way, if there is a burglar in the house; considering the sound the 870 makes when I pump a round in the chamber, and they stay in the house or start moving toward me, they will go out of the house tits up. Not my fooking problem.

Has nothing to do with skill or accuracy, most people have it imbedded to not kill or take a life unless necessary... and will even go so far as to try and talk the person out of doing what he or she is doing.


Phil

Better? For home defiance?
Better than a hand gun? YES!
Better than a AR, AK, FAL, H&K 91 or 93 and so may other military type rifles...........................it's no worse. Guns are not all that important when you compare them to shooters and tactics. a good old 30-30 lever action is not something you'd want a cool, determined, trained enemy to have in his hands.
Neither is a shotgun inside 50 yards or so, thats for sure.

The idea that mine holds 30 and your gun hold "only" 6 or 10 is not realistic for fighting a home invader. Those considerations come into play when facing a large groups of organized enemies who have a mission and are answerable to someone of higher authority. (like military forces) Self-serving criminals are not looking for a fight. They are looking for easy to dominate victims. Criminals have some personal gain in mind, not an ideal. Political or religious enemies are not usually going to be interested in simple home invasions.

Every round you fire will hit. Something! So "firepower" should never mean missing more. You are endangering everyone except your enemy when you miss. As a veteran and then a combat tactics instructor with military and law-enforcement personal for over 40 years, the most important lesson I could every hammer home to security personal was to stay clam, to think, to AIM, and not Miss!


A handgun is for carry! If you are not carrying it, it's not EVER as good as a long arm. Handguns are for those times when you can't have a long gun.

Sure they are valuable assets and I have one on my side right now. BUT if I saw a potential danger coming up my hill I would take the 5 seconds I needed to grab my AK or FAL. If however I had a choose of going hot with my 1911 or my Sig 250, or grabbing my old Marlin 30-30, or bolt action 270, I'll going to take the rifle EVERY time without the slightest hesitation.

If you need 5 seconds to get your gun why would you EVER grab a handgun when you can grab a shotgun or rifle instead?

That is the reason EVERY army on EARTH issues rifles instead of handgun as regular infantry weapons. Rifles are BETTER then handgun for fighting.

So are shotgun inside their effective range ( inside a house is well inside the range of a shotgun)

So you should buy it if you like it. Free men buy what they want. Slaves are allowed what they need.

But the fight is not about the gun.
It's about YOU!

Nice trunk. How old is it, do you know?

Jerry, I've seen a lot of good ballistics testing that endorses plated or hardened #1 buck. I don't have much street data for that load, however, nor does anyone else I know who keeps track of such things.

However: there is a LOT of good data showing 00 buck is highly effective, and since the "laboratory" ballistics of #1 and 00 are very close at home-defense distances, I think you're on a good track. I still use 00 buck as my primary load in my 11-87. It's not because 00 is a tad more effective once you get past home defense distances, but because I haven't been able to procure a decent supply of plate #1 buckshot I have to stick with the 00 loads I have already patterned and trust.

Unimpeded close range birdshot GSW's are indeed lethal. The problem we run into here is knowing what the limit of "close" range is.

"Close" range varies with the shooter, the load, and the shotgun. Change any of these and what you think is a lethal load may be only a minor annoyance to your attacker.

First Thing: the shooter. When we include a shotgun session in one of my Tactical Anatomy classes, I find most people bring a pump shotgun (usually an 870 or Mossberg), and they bring at least 25 rounds of their preferred ammunition. Then we test pattern some of the shotguns at 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards. I learned a long time ago it's best if I don't let them shoot their own guns, because most of them can't hit the pattern paper. (And these are people who claim to have a lot of shotgun experience!) We have seen a bunch of folks on this thread deplore the ability of ordinary folks to shoot their handguns effectively in a high-stress home defense situation... what makes you think that someone who can't hit the perp at 5 yards with his 9mm will be able to do it with a shotgun at the same distance? In my instructor experience, crappy handgun shooters who haven't trained enough are also crappy shotgun shooters who haven't trained enough.

Also First Thing: pump shotguns suck when you're under stress. Every 870 fan I know says he would never short-stroke the pump. When I put these guys on a range with even a fraction of stress (I put them 10 yards from a silhouette target, in front of the whole class, and tell them "hit the target five times in five seconds") and short-stroking happens to several people in every class. A good and reliable autoloader is a much better shotgun for real gunfighting. And if you dare to say "autoloaders jam", you'd better be prepared to sell all your AR's.

Second thing: the load. I'm not gonna argue with the birdshot advocates. You're wrong, but I don't care. Do what you want. My shotgun is loaded with buckshot. 00 buck is arguably the best load all around, and plated #1 buck is a close second. But here's the deal: it doesn't matter what load you pick if you don't know where your shotgun throws the pellets. In those shotgun classes I mentioned in the first paragraph, I have found shotguns that will completely miss the silhouette target at 15 to 20 yards with Load A of 00 buckshot but will center the pattern on the chest with Load B. So you HAVE TO PATTERN your shotgun with your chosen load. It may not hit where you are pointing the muzzle. You don't want to find this out when a maniac is attacking you in your home.

Also Second thing: while birdshot is deadly effective inside its lethal range, that lethal range can vary significantly depending on shotgun and load. You can't know the limit of the lethal range of your birdshot loads unless you pattern your shotgun. When you do so, take note of the range at which your pattern opens up to 3-4" or more. At that point, your pellets have lost 30-40% of their velocity and energy, and that may be only 4-5 yards from your muzzle.

Third thing: Continuing with what I've seen in my classes, the quality of most home defense shotguns is dismal. Many home defense shotguns lack a rear sight, and many don't even have a front bead. Good sights are critical to hitting the Bad Guy where he lives and breathes. You need to aim your shotgun if you're defending your life with it; you only point it when you're wingshooting birds. Many defensive shotguns are dry (unlubed), and gas-operated autos often haven't been cleaned in living memory. I'm not talking about the bores... a shiny bore doesn't matter in a shotgun. Shiny, clean, well-oiled actions are what count.

Where I live it's doubtful I'll ever have a home invader. Doubly so since my house dogs go ballistic if a possum farts in the yard at night and my German Shepherd is just itching to eat somebody at any opportunity. Even so, there is a 12 gauge pump loaded with 00 buck next to the night stand just in case.

That's what Fidel Castro said in an interview when he was in the mountains fighting Batista. Castro said he liked the Browning shotgun.

Everyone should choose the weapon w/ which they are most competent. Few can shoot a handgun well and a shotgun is a viable choice. Practicing w/ dryfire in your home allows learning all the angles, corners and sightlines that you will need to encounter. In my home the longest distance is 66'. If my wife is being used as a shield by some booger eater at that distance she would probably prefer I use my pistol rather than a shotgun. I can make that shot 100% of the time. I always wear my pistol when I am out of bed and don't depend on attackers providing me time to fetch my shotgun or rifle.

Add the complication of low light and the need to ID your target and the need for good training and regular deliberate practice becomes even more apparent.

YMMV



mike r

Because I'm not as competent with a handgun as I'd like to be, my go-to home defense weapon is a Benelli M4 with #4 buck. A couple of comments I think are called for at this point. First, I've heard it said that an advantage of the shotgun for home defense is you don't have to aim. That is complete BS. Only a very inexperienced shooter would say something that wrong. Second is the notion that when the intruder hears you rack the slide on the old 870 he flees in fear. Maybe not. In that case, giving away your position and that you are armed is complete nonsense that could be fatal. Third, after I've identified my "target" as an immediate threat and absolutely not something else, there will be no warnings. I will shoot to stop the threat and will continue shooting until there is no longer a threat.

My main home defense gun is a 20 ga. SxS with #4 buck in the holes (the biggest shot I've been able to find for a 20). Besides being more than a little bit lethal, there's something about looking down 2 big black holes that will make a crook's knees shake.

#2 buck is available in a 3" 20 pellet load from Federal. #3 buck in a 20 pellet load is the standard in 2 3/4" 20 gauge.

Doc, you make some strong points but I disagree with the assumption that pump action shotguns are bad because of the possibility of short stroking the action. That same argument has been used in dangerous game hunting for decades with regards to bolt actions vs double guns and yet somehow people have been knocking down big ugly critters using bolt action repeaters for over a century without issue . People can a find a way to screw up/jam/disable just about any type of firearm if they put their mind to it. Both semi autos and pump actions have their advantages but ultimately, the user needs to train properly to use each to their full capacity, just like any other proper firearm for personal defense.

Shoot my shotguns at handgun range, the ONLY advantage is its a long gun. Pattern size doesn't give any leeway. They don't spread until they get out further. At least our house is small. Any shot in our house the pattern MIGHT hit 3 inches MAYBE in size...

Recoil is a lot on shotguns unless you use reduced loads. That said I think maybe a short 20 ga with buckshot...

OTOH we are SO used to the AR platform that the wife and I could run them in our sleep, thats generally whats around, though there is a 590 next to the bed, the AR will get the nod easily.

When folks keep comparing the ability to hit with a handgun vs. a long gun at close range I'm not seeing a comparison of terminal effects.

A buckshot load that doesn't expand much at 7 yards will still produce a wound like a 2.00 caliber rifle vs a .356 or .451 hole. And don't lecture me about expansion, you're still talking about maybe a .60 or .70 caliber hole vs that same 2.00 caliber entry wound with more effects of individual pellets veering off course to chart even more permanent cavities in the thorax. Or even if the pellets all stay together in a clump you still have basically a 2" hole all the way through.

I did pattern several loads of buckshot through an 18" cylinder bore and a 28" modified choke bore at 7, 15 and 25 yards, and posted those results here some 5 years ago. Pics were lost to photobucket but I can reload some if anyone really wants to see them. Unless you live in a very big house with straight line distances of more than 80 feet, almost any buckshot will work. Even with the crappiest buckshot loads, within about 45 feet and given a decent shot you're still getting nine simultaneous .33 caliber hits. If you're really good with a handgun you might be able to shoot a 9mm fast but as fast as you can put another .356 pellet in the target a good man with a shotgun can put another 9 pellets on target. 1, 2, 3, vs 9, 18, 27...

Fwiw, if you can find any Federal Personal Defense loads with their Flite-Control wad, you have that 2.00 caliber long gun even from a cylinder bore at 7 yards and you'll still put 9 pellets in a close pattern out to 25. If you use some other load and want tight patterns then use a barrel with some choke in it. Choke works whether you're shooting 00 buck or #9 birdshot.

I don't think it is the pellets from a shotgun shell that makes the difference. It is "accuracy" which is drastically improved by the longer sight radius of the barrel of a shotgun or rifle that makes the difference. It is easier for a novice to control the accurate pointing of the muzzle of a long arm than a relative short handgun muzzle. In my experience, shotgun patterns, at relative close range, are small in diameter.