I fell down the rabbit hole watching YouTube videos where armed homeowners were shooting up their home interiors trying to hit intruders.

From what I saw, it was evident that a handgun wasn’t getting the job done, unless scaring the living shît out of the burglar was the only intention.

1-5 bad guys ranging in color from black to black (not stereotyping) just what was on the cameras...The variety of invaders all had one thing in common, besides skin color...They all could move like a panther lit on fire with incredible agility and quickness as rounds from homeowners handguns were tearing holes in sheetrock, doors, paneling, and furnishings.

It’s apparent a lot of people have a difficult time hitting a burglar within their home, even at close range...

Why? Besides coming apart mentally that someone is in their home, the spaces are small, and there is a lot of obstacles in the way of a clear shot.

Door jambs, walls, staircase, kitchen counters, furniture, etc, make for a very brief shoot window on a quick and nimble bad guy.

Getting off anything more than a snap shot before the burglar disappears behind a wall, or through a doorway, or down a hall juking and sliding trying to get out of the house was the norm from what I watched.

Made me think the average homeowner might do better with a gauge as their choice for home protection.

Caveat. Some may consider scaring the bad guys away with missed shots is a win. YMMV.


😎

This guy has a lot of Youtube videos about the subject. He's one of the few I can watch for an extended period of time.

Threat gone due to missed shots is always better then threat laying bleeding all over the carpet, crying for his lawyer!
Or his surviving family crying for their lawyers

That's why I use rounds that provide a level of penetration john holmes would approve of, that said, an 11 shot 870 is in the back loaded to the gills with 9 copper plated 20 pellets each of #1 Buck, with two Brenekke KO slugs bringing up the rear.

Why not a reliable, proven system, maneuverable, highly ergonomic, easy to maintain and upgrade, with a 30 round box magazine, very bright light, and a red dot that doesn't over penetrate in a house?

Sounds like a sex toy that kills....Cool!

🤣😎

Man,I would not want to be anywhere near the receiving end of that load.

Confronting a home invader, even in familiar territory like your own home, is a losing bet. Unless you have to move to protect children, etc., the best bet is to stay put and cover the one access point to your safe area, then drop anybody who gets funneled into that spot in his tracks after you light him up and confirm your target. His buddies will have to climb over his bloody corpse to get to you, which will slow them down if they press on with the attack. It's also a good idea to have 911 on speaker phone while you're defending your "safe space".
Jerry

There ain’t a person alive who would ever say “Yep, breaking into that big redneck mofo’s house to steal sum of his shît was a good idea”.....😜😎

I've always got a handgun (normally a 1911 .45 Auto) nearby, but I have aways maintained that a shotgun is the way to go for anything resembling self defense.

It's a dirty sombitch BamBam, some sort of entry load Winchester made a few years ago, 2-3/4ths inch hulls too, old traveling Bud gave me a case of those things.

Bro, you did kill a pussy with a handgun - and it was a very angry pussy, too.

You passed the test for holding your shît in and doing the work with a handgun.

😬😎

Yessir! cause he know some good carpenters and where the appliance sto is, he jus wouldn't stop chootin!

Ya.....that was one pissed off pussy.
About shït my britches I did, but I got the needed penetration to prevail....

This guy is pretty good, pragmatic and offers excellent practical advice.

There are lot of excellent HD slug, buckshot shotgun loads to be found in "reduced recoil", "tactical" offerings. This is where having pump action helps because weaker but very effective loads may not cycle through self-loading shotguns. If you have "Joe Biden" shotgun you can even use mini-shells offered by Italians, Americans (Federal Cartridge) and Mexicans (Aguila).

I agree. Depending on the load, your buckshot might not spread enough at 15-30ft to make a difference compared to a rifle or pistol. I personally will take an AR and pistol over a shotgun.

While I am completely comfortable investigating bumps in the night and unknown sounds with a handgun, if it is a definite break in they are going to meet the Gentleman from Belgium or an AR :

NICE!!!!^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Exactly....

LIKE 🔵

😎

Yessir, I have one of those in the back too, it wears it's 24 inch slug barrel, full of three #1 Bucks and two KO slugs, a sweet swinger that has never hinted at a jamb.

I almost bought military version of that (long one piece factory magazine tube) that was originally used in Rhodesia or South Africa. I passed because one has to adjust recoil spring when using between heavy vs light loads. Modern semi-auto can cycle 70mm, 76mm and even 89mm shells w/o any adjustments.

Easier to hit with a l9nf gun and if the user is a wingshooter, a moving target is no nig whoop with a shotgun.

Thinking that just looking at him might make them chitt, the 870 is just for show

I have the same package except it doesn't hold 11 rounds and mine is stoked with 000 and #4 buck. I would not want to be on the receiving end of it.

LOL, they wont see me, I be in the dark, the flash BOOM now................................ and your setup will work too, I cant imagine catching a chest or gut full of blue whistlers! it's going to suck, hard!

Hard to hit 'em with a pistol. Also hard to hit 'em with a shotgun.
We are not talking about 40 yards, where your buckshot might spread out over 4 feet.
We are talking about inside-the-house range. Ten feet, maybe fifteen. Before you change your defense arms over to shotguns, take your shotgun out and see what kind of pattern you get at 15 feet. I have tried it with a 20 gauge shotgun and the pattern was 1.5 inches. Hardly different from a pistol.

Most likely will need to get the sheetrock guy in to hang a few sheets .

Mackey, That’s a nice set up you have, Looks like it’s been there and done that.

Yessir, and a 55 gal drum of wall putty. it's fun to joke around, but hope like hell it never happens.

I ranged the furthest distances in the house, 18 and 22 yards, I split the difference and set a box at 20 yards, then had at it with my 870 and #1 Buck load, iirc it has the mod choke installed, the pattern was centered and evenly disbursed, measured around 12 inches, so yes, even in a house a shotgun HAS to be aimed.

I like the 20 better. Cerekote 870, Wilson combat sights, youth stock with the soft super cell pad. Accurate with slugs (4 of which reside in the Mesa side saddle).
Hope I never need it but I’m sure it will work.
Remember what Clint Smith says: “Inside your house a shotgun is a rifle”.

Very few people practice enough with a handgun to be effective in a high stress environment. For that reason a pump or semi-auto 12 ga is a better choice for home defense. A 3 inch magnum shell loaded with 2 shells of #4 or #2 shot followed by 3 shells loaded with buckshot is more effective. And before anyone decries the use of #4 or #2 shot, get some and shoot them into a sheet of plywood at about 20 feet and look at the damage they do. No man can survive a chest hit at that distance with those shells and you could easily knock the legs out from under someone if you don't want a kill shot.

I base the above on more than 25 years on active duty. Even for military people that shoot a fair amount, few of them are really good. They use a pistol to fight their way to a long gun. When the lives of your family are on the line go straight to the long gun in the first place. As always, feel free to disagree.

I have an 1100 with a magazine extension. It had a 20” barrel. Lots of pellets can come out quick. Isn’t a double ought about the size of a .22 bullet?

No, 00 is 60 grains, so 9 sixty grain bullets coming at you at once.

The interesting part about Browning Auto-5s is that when they came into play, the United States was at the tail end of fighting the Indian Wars. They have been in use in one degree or another all the through the Vietnam war, where some SF guys used them. They have been in use all over the globe. Most Americans don't realize the extent of their martial use. Lots of use in Africa and various jungle locations.

00 buck is roughly 33 cal iirc Hanco.

00 is roughly .33 caliber

you think missed handgun shots are blowing hell out of your sheetrock , wait till you have a bunch of 12 gauge holes in the walls

a shotgun blast in close confines can also miss


that said use whatever gun you feel will do the job

Mossberg 930 SPX loaded with Winchester Defender Elite 12 gauge 2 3/4 1oz rifled slug 3 - 00 buck pellets. In the event of a home invasion hopefully I'll have a back stop. Shoot him in the mid torso and the slug will stop about his back.

He was a good boy ,he loved his moma , he didn't do nuffin.

MAC: "A 3 inch magnum shell loaded with 2 shells of #4 or #2 shot followed by 3 shells loaded with buckshot is more effective. And before anyone decries the use of #4 or #2 shot, get some and shoot them into a sheet of plywood at about 20 feet and look at the damage they do. No man can survive a chest hit at that distance with those shells and you could easily knock the legs out from under someone if you don't want a kill shot."

You are correct, sir. I worked many years as a paramedic in a small Georgia county. Our EMS was hospital based, our barracks were out in the ER parking lot. Many injuries are brought in by car, so, besides the hundreds of GSW I worked in the field, I worked many dozens more in the ER.
I was fascinated to see what kind of damage the different guns did to people. I loved to see the xrays of the GSW, a bullet really shows up on an xray.
Down South most people keep a loaded shotgun, in the closet or behind the door. Loaded with bird shot, maybe number 8 or number 6. Might have to shoot a rabbit in the garden, might have to shoot a bad guy. Or, might get drunk one night and get in to an argument with your daddy, and shoot him.

I saw 14 patients hit at close range torso shots with bird shot, I am talking a range of 10 to 15 feet, and every one of them died. A 1 1/2 inch "rat hole" entrance wound, no exit.
I never saw anyone hit with buck shot but, I would imagine, whatever bird shot would do, buck shot would do even better.

Close range shotgun hit is the most lethal load a person can be hit with.

That looks like it might have a story behind it.

I really want to get a VR80.

30 carbine W/ 1911 backup

I’m of the heavy birdshot backed by #3 buck philosophy. Cylinder bore is good. Fella that has experience in the field has little problem shooting airborne quail in the noggin when they’re in close. People in the nightlights aren’t a tough target. Anyone thinking a load of turkey shot at 15-20’ isn’t lethal needs to smoke something else.

Where space to maneuver is available, long guns with proper ammo selection are virtually always a better choice than hand guns.

However, I’ll point out a lot of the issues with scoring hits on home invaders at close range are simply due to lack of training, skills and practice on the part of the homeowners.

Anyone who wants to be even moderately competent with a handgun needs to be training all the time. Frequent dry fire and presentation practice couple with not-infrequent live fire training are needed, live fire training should include drills beyond simply bullseye shooting.

People who cannot (or will not) devote significant training time to handguns should really consider them range toys IMHO.

I have an 870 12 gauge, 20 inch barrel, loaded with 3 inch Double B's. I figure it this way, if there is a burglar in the house; considering the sound the 870 makes when I pump a round in the chamber, and they stay in the house or start moving toward me, they will go out of the house tits up. Not my fooking problem.

Has nothing to do with skill or accuracy, most people have it imbedded to not kill or take a life unless necessary... and will even go so far as to try and talk the person out of doing what he or she is doing.


Phil

Better? For home defiance?
Better than a hand gun? YES!
Better than a AR, AK, FAL, H&K 91 or 93 and so may other military type rifles...........................it's no worse. Guns are not all that important when you compare them to shooters and tactics. a good old 30-30 lever action is not something you'd want a cool, determined, trained enemy to have in his hands.
Neither is a shotgun inside 50 yards or so, thats for sure.

The idea that mine holds 30 and your gun hold "only" 6 or 10 is not realistic for fighting a home invader. Those considerations come into play when facing a large groups of organized enemies who have a mission and are answerable to someone of higher authority. (like military forces) Self-serving criminals are not looking for a fight. They are looking for easy to dominate victims. Criminals have some personal gain in mind, not an ideal. Political or religious enemies are not usually going to be interested in simple home invasions.

Every round you fire will hit. Something! So "firepower" should never mean missing more. You are endangering everyone except your enemy when you miss. As a veteran and then a combat tactics instructor with military and law-enforcement personal for over 40 years, the most important lesson I could every hammer home to security personal was to stay clam, to think, to AIM, and not Miss!


A handgun is for carry! If you are not carrying it, it's not EVER as good as a long arm. Handguns are for those times when you can't have a long gun.

Sure they are valuable assets and I have one on my side right now. BUT if I saw a potential danger coming up my hill I would take the 5 seconds I needed to grab my AK or FAL. If however I had a choose of going hot with my 1911 or my Sig 250, or grabbing my old Marlin 30-30, or bolt action 270, I'll going to take the rifle EVERY time without the slightest hesitation.

If you need 5 seconds to get your gun why would you EVER grab a handgun when you can grab a shotgun or rifle instead?

That is the reason EVERY army on EARTH issues rifles instead of handgun as regular infantry weapons. Rifles are BETTER then handgun for fighting.

So are shotgun inside their effective range ( inside a house is well inside the range of a shotgun)

So you should buy it if you like it. Free men buy what they want. Slaves are allowed what they need.

But the fight is not about the gun.
It's about YOU!

Nice trunk. How old is it, do you know?

Jerry, I've seen a lot of good ballistics testing that endorses plated or hardened #1 buck. I don't have much street data for that load, however, nor does anyone else I know who keeps track of such things.

However: there is a LOT of good data showing 00 buck is highly effective, and since the "laboratory" ballistics of #1 and 00 are very close at home-defense distances, I think you're on a good track. I still use 00 buck as my primary load in my 11-87. It's not because 00 is a tad more effective once you get past home defense distances, but because I haven't been able to procure a decent supply of plate #1 buckshot I have to stick with the 00 loads I have already patterned and trust.

Unimpeded close range birdshot GSW's are indeed lethal. The problem we run into here is knowing what the limit of "close" range is.

"Close" range varies with the shooter, the load, and the shotgun. Change any of these and what you think is a lethal load may be only a minor annoyance to your attacker.

First Thing: the shooter. When we include a shotgun session in one of my Tactical Anatomy classes, I find most people bring a pump shotgun (usually an 870 or Mossberg), and they bring at least 25 rounds of their preferred ammunition. Then we test pattern some of the shotguns at 5, 10, 15, 20, and 25 yards. I learned a long time ago it's best if I don't let them shoot their own guns, because most of them can't hit the pattern paper. (And these are people who claim to have a lot of shotgun experience!) We have seen a bunch of folks on this thread deplore the ability of ordinary folks to shoot their handguns effectively in a high-stress home defense situation... what makes you think that someone who can't hit the perp at 5 yards with his 9mm will be able to do it with a shotgun at the same distance? In my instructor experience, crappy handgun shooters who haven't trained enough are also crappy shotgun shooters who haven't trained enough.

Also First Thing: pump shotguns suck when you're under stress. Every 870 fan I know says he would never short-stroke the pump. When I put these guys on a range with even a fraction of stress (I put them 10 yards from a silhouette target, in front of the whole class, and tell them "hit the target five times in five seconds") and short-stroking happens to several people in every class. A good and reliable autoloader is a much better shotgun for real gunfighting. And if you dare to say "autoloaders jam", you'd better be prepared to sell all your AR's.

Second thing: the load. I'm not gonna argue with the birdshot advocates. You're wrong, but I don't care. Do what you want. My shotgun is loaded with buckshot. 00 buck is arguably the best load all around, and plated #1 buck is a close second. But here's the deal: it doesn't matter what load you pick if you don't know where your shotgun throws the pellets. In those shotgun classes I mentioned in the first paragraph, I have found shotguns that will completely miss the silhouette target at 15 to 20 yards with Load A of 00 buckshot but will center the pattern on the chest with Load B. So you HAVE TO PATTERN your shotgun with your chosen load. It may not hit where you are pointing the muzzle. You don't want to find this out when a maniac is attacking you in your home.

Also Second thing: while birdshot is deadly effective inside its lethal range, that lethal range can vary significantly depending on shotgun and load. You can't know the limit of the lethal range of your birdshot loads unless you pattern your shotgun. When you do so, take note of the range at which your pattern opens up to 3-4" or more. At that point, your pellets have lost 30-40% of their velocity and energy, and that may be only 4-5 yards from your muzzle.

Third thing: Continuing with what I've seen in my classes, the quality of most home defense shotguns is dismal. Many home defense shotguns lack a rear sight, and many don't even have a front bead. Good sights are critical to hitting the Bad Guy where he lives and breathes. You need to aim your shotgun if you're defending your life with it; you only point it when you're wingshooting birds. Many defensive shotguns are dry (unlubed), and gas-operated autos often haven't been cleaned in living memory. I'm not talking about the bores... a shiny bore doesn't matter in a shotgun. Shiny, clean, well-oiled actions are what count.

Where I live it's doubtful I'll ever have a home invader. Doubly so since my house dogs go ballistic if a possum farts in the yard at night and my German Shepherd is just itching to eat somebody at any opportunity. Even so, there is a 12 gauge pump loaded with 00 buck next to the night stand just in case.

That's what Fidel Castro said in an interview when he was in the mountains fighting Batista. Castro said he liked the Browning shotgun.

Everyone should choose the weapon w/ which they are most competent. Few can shoot a handgun well and a shotgun is a viable choice. Practicing w/ dryfire in your home allows learning all the angles, corners and sightlines that you will need to encounter. In my home the longest distance is 66'. If my wife is being used as a shield by some booger eater at that distance she would probably prefer I use my pistol rather than a shotgun. I can make that shot 100% of the time. I always wear my pistol when I am out of bed and don't depend on attackers providing me time to fetch my shotgun or rifle.

Add the complication of low light and the need to ID your target and the need for good training and regular deliberate practice becomes even more apparent.

YMMV



mike r

Because I'm not as competent with a handgun as I'd like to be, my go-to home defense weapon is a Benelli M4 with #4 buck. A couple of comments I think are called for at this point. First, I've heard it said that an advantage of the shotgun for home defense is you don't have to aim. That is complete BS. Only a very inexperienced shooter would say something that wrong. Second is the notion that when the intruder hears you rack the slide on the old 870 he flees in fear. Maybe not. In that case, giving away your position and that you are armed is complete nonsense that could be fatal. Third, after I've identified my "target" as an immediate threat and absolutely not something else, there will be no warnings. I will shoot to stop the threat and will continue shooting until there is no longer a threat.

My main home defense gun is a 20 ga. SxS with #4 buck in the holes (the biggest shot I've been able to find for a 20). Besides being more than a little bit lethal, there's something about looking down 2 big black holes that will make a crook's knees shake.

#2 buck is available in a 3" 20 pellet load from Federal. #3 buck in a 20 pellet load is the standard in 2 3/4" 20 gauge.

Doc, you make some strong points but I disagree with the assumption that pump action shotguns are bad because of the possibility of short stroking the action. That same argument has been used in dangerous game hunting for decades with regards to bolt actions vs double guns and yet somehow people have been knocking down big ugly critters using bolt action repeaters for over a century without issue . People can a find a way to screw up/jam/disable just about any type of firearm if they put their mind to it. Both semi autos and pump actions have their advantages but ultimately, the user needs to train properly to use each to their full capacity, just like any other proper firearm for personal defense.

Shoot my shotguns at handgun range, the ONLY advantage is its a long gun. Pattern size doesn't give any leeway. They don't spread until they get out further. At least our house is small. Any shot in our house the pattern MIGHT hit 3 inches MAYBE in size...

Recoil is a lot on shotguns unless you use reduced loads. That said I think maybe a short 20 ga with buckshot...

OTOH we are SO used to the AR platform that the wife and I could run them in our sleep, thats generally whats around, though there is a 590 next to the bed, the AR will get the nod easily.

When folks keep comparing the ability to hit with a handgun vs. a long gun at close range I'm not seeing a comparison of terminal effects.

A buckshot load that doesn't expand much at 7 yards will still produce a wound like a 2.00 caliber rifle vs a .356 or .451 hole. And don't lecture me about expansion, you're still talking about maybe a .60 or .70 caliber hole vs that same 2.00 caliber entry wound with more effects of individual pellets veering off course to chart even more permanent cavities in the thorax. Or even if the pellets all stay together in a clump you still have basically a 2" hole all the way through.

I did pattern several loads of buckshot through an 18" cylinder bore and a 28" modified choke bore at 7, 15 and 25 yards, and posted those results here some 5 years ago. Pics were lost to photobucket but I can reload some if anyone really wants to see them. Unless you live in a very big house with straight line distances of more than 80 feet, almost any buckshot will work. Even with the crappiest buckshot loads, within about 45 feet and given a decent shot you're still getting nine simultaneous .33 caliber hits. If you're really good with a handgun you might be able to shoot a 9mm fast but as fast as you can put another .356 pellet in the target a good man with a shotgun can put another 9 pellets on target. 1, 2, 3, vs 9, 18, 27...

Fwiw, if you can find any Federal Personal Defense loads with their Flite-Control wad, you have that 2.00 caliber long gun even from a cylinder bore at 7 yards and you'll still put 9 pellets in a close pattern out to 25. If you use some other load and want tight patterns then use a barrel with some choke in it. Choke works whether you're shooting 00 buck or #9 birdshot.

I don't think it is the pellets from a shotgun shell that makes the difference. It is "accuracy" which is drastically improved by the longer sight radius of the barrel of a shotgun or rifle that makes the difference. It is easier for a novice to control the accurate pointing of the muzzle of a long arm than a relative short handgun muzzle. In my experience, shotgun patterns, at relative close range, are small in diameter.

Just how often do you guys have a running gun fight inside your house??

This, and as a reminder, #1 Buck is .30 cal. This Rio stuff is inexpensive making patterning and practice quite practical.

" Even with the crappiest buckshot loads, within about 45 feet and given a decent shot you're still getting nine simultaneous .33 caliber hits. If you're really good with a handgun you might be able to shoot a 9mm fast but as fast as you can put another .356 pellet in the target a good man with a shotgun can put another 9 pellets on target. 1, 2, 3, vs 9, 18, 27..."

That is an interesting analysis, Jim. A bunch of .33 round balls. I have killed a lot of deer with a .490 round ball in a black powder rifle. Somehow, the round ball is a very lethal load. Of course .490 is a lot bigger than a .33 However, Wild Bill Hickok was slaying 'em with a Colt with a .36 round ball. Pretty similar.

As I said I never saw anybody hit with buckshot but a good torso hit anywhere under 40 yards has got to be fatal and he would die quickly.
If you made a bad shot inside the house, at 20 feet, and hit the guy in the upper arm, it would blow his arm off.

Neat video. I think any shotgun is just fine for home defense. Within the confines of the average house, BB shot is probably more than adequate. In fact, if someone gets shot in the face with a .410 and no. 4's, his day is probably done. The only drawback to the shotgun at all is whether or not it is ready, at hand, when you need it. GD

Does anyone actually spend their days w/ a shotgun or rifle in hand and able to present it and make a shot in<under 3 seconds? Or predict the circumstances of the fight?



mike r

That Gentleman from Belgium don't look like no gentleman. He look like a meanie. lol.

You bet Doc, if we compare 2-3/4ths inch shells, 9 pellets at 33 cal gives one number, 20 pellets of 30 cal give a whole different number, it's a hell of a payload in that case length, hope you can find some good copper plated Buck, and thanks for the knowledge.

The one constant in Law Enforcement for the last 300 years has been the shotgun. Yes, a handgun is good and so is a rifle but if you want it dead and you want it dead from across the bed room or the living room it's a shotgun. I'd give my petite little wife an Mossberg youth 20 gauge or my brute of a wife a full blown 12 gauge if you think she can handle it. Either way, it's 300 years of history on their side. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to learn how to use a pump shotgun which means most wives can learn to use it. If they can handle a frying pan they can use a pump shotgun.

kwg

I'm no SD expert or a world class shotgunner, but always find the shotguns for self defense discussions entertaining to say the least, or, down right frustrating.

Usually, abut 50% of the crowd should be out in a dump or an improvised range with scrap sheetrock, plywood, a tape measure, their scattergun & a big box of assorted shells. You tube helps, but ain't nothin like the real thing baby. Especially those 3" magnums. They're likely to have the untrained dropping the gun at the first shot. Chuck Norris is the only person that likes those, but only in an auto.

So many misconceptions about shotguns & various loads, & it shows each & every time.

Not to answer a question with questions, but how many times do you head butt a bridge in your vehicle?

Do you have/rely on:

airbags in your vehicle
insurance
a spare tire
fire extinguishers
home security system
carry a weapon
911 on speed dial?

Not a gotdamn thing wrong with preparedness!

Doc, SimonKenton,
How do results from the 60gr Hornady Vmax/NBT out of an AR compare with the shotgun?

1911, S&W 586 or 870 I am just itching to catch someone in my house that I need to run a test on.

Per Jeff Cooper as channeled by Clint Smith and others, the object of shooting is hitting.

If those folks are shooting holes in walls vs. holes in people, their training sucks.

Not all holes through sheet rock are misses.....just saying.

I don't plan on killing any burglars anyway.

They're either getting cuffed up or ran out.

Shoot’em in the foot, they’re easier to cuff afterwards. I heard.

Winner!

I shot an armed home invasion intruder with a 12 gauge and Federal #4 buckshot. It is the same shotgun and load that I keep in the house today, along with a .40 S&W loaded with Federal Hydro-Shoks.

Did he live?

A little sheetrock repair, some paint and life was back to normal for you, I hope. 😎

A shotgun is a great self-defense weapon. Personally I use two #4 in front of three 000 buck for home defense. I've shot thousands of sharks with everything from a 458 to a 22, and a shotgun loaded with bird shot at 6' was as good or better than everything we tried. Believe it or not bird shot seemed to have more stopping power than buckshot at 6' or less. Buckshot would completely penetrate through the shark where as birdshot wouldn't.

If you hear somebody in your house holler hey listen then rack a round in your pump shotgun. If they aren’t totally stupid they will then be seen running out the door. Lol. Ed k

My wife complains about her off hand accuracy at 10 yards with a pistol. Hand her her 20ga youth model or 10" braced AR and her complaints go away. That third point of contact make a real difference for a lot of shooters, especially those who don't practice enough.

And, it means you either didn't have one in the chamber to begin with, or, you just ejected a live round onto the floor.

Both, really bad tactical mistakes.

LOL

Get outta dodge.

Of all the firearms I have, I am 10 times more comfortable with a Remington 870 in my hand than any other firearm I own. I have some other firearms throughout the house, but I have an 870 12 inches away from our bed.

I have shot tens of thousands of rounds from 870's, so that's what I'd trust.

Only tactical disadvantage I can see is in close quarters, the bad guy might be able to control the barrel. So my home defense 870 is 1/4" longer than the federally allowed minimum length, and it is a full open (non-choked) barrel. The slightly shorter sight radius was worth the trade-off of barrel length disadvantage for me personally, since I am a skilled shotgunner (in my own mind).

With the open choke, it opens up quickly. And it's loaded with HEVI-Shot Dead Coyote (https://www.hevishot.com/catalog/dead-coyote/) 00 buck, which is heavier than lead and less malleable. I also know will go through 2 sheets of drywall if it doesn't hit a stud, because I've tried it.

Interesting take. I've shot a lot of deer with 45 and 50 cal and even 62 cal round balls. Performance was never at all impressive. But dead. Change any of those to a conical and the results were much quicker, better blood trails etc....

I'm not convinced that a load of buckshot has much more over a good handgun round. Sure more holes but I just shot a group of pigs with 20 ga buckshot a week ago. 50ish pounders. 5 of the 6 fell at the first 2 shots at about 25 yards. One lay there, others got up and left and the one laying eventually got up and had to be shot again. From my camera results I killed 2 of the 6. That might even be wrong because now there are 5 back in the area and I'm not saying they didn't pick up a stray but.... One round from the 9mm or 10mms of ours and they are done after a short run.

Bottom line, use what works best for you. And that you have total confidence in. Us, we can put more rounds on target quicker with an AR223. Might even be better if we had one in handgun caliber, but 223 doesn't over penetrate unless using heavy rounds like 69 SMK or such.... and its quick and easy to shoot.

I've seen one deer killed with 00 buck. One shot from about 20 yards dropped it right there. As I remember all pellets hit in ribs and exited the far side. I don't think any human is going to walk away from it. When I took my hunters safety course the instructor showed us pictures of people who were killed in hunting accidents. One that sticks in my head showed a guy who took a load of buckshot to the face from close range. His head looked like a pumpkin that had been smashed on the road. Obviously his skull was completely shattered and the back of his head was gone.

...and they sewed him back up and we still have Blackheart to this day!

I think the longer sighting radius is a big deal. I have a Winchester Defender shotgun — 12 gauge, 18” barrel, cylinder bore, with a magazine that holds eight 2-3/4” shells. Years ago I saw advice from a source that is now long forgotten that #4 buckshot was quite lethal in home defense but reduced potential over-penetration in home walls. Made sense to me so that’s what I have. In a 2-3/4” shell there are 27 #4 buckshot, each having a diameter of .130”.

Shotgun patterns at close range are indeed tight. Folks sometimes wonder how they missed a turkey’s head with a shotgun. If the turkey gets too close, that tight turkey choke is not your friend. Might as well be shooting a rifle.

Wasn't it the late famous shootist, Bill Jordan, who wrote in No Second Place Winner, "You can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight."

Just sayin'.

L.W.

Grow up you pathetic little attention whore. You're only cute and witty to you.

From here on your Delta Tau Chi name is:

Humpty-Dumpty.

This is why the butt stroke was invented. The bad guy's face is the preferred target.

Yes, but without a functional right arm and a large portion of his liver and lower intestines.

He right hand and the stolen Glock that he was holding in it were damaged beyond repair.

OR just ejecting the birdshot to get to buck.

Ithaca 37, 20 ga. #3 buck at about 20 yards.


One shot and done. That particular gun and load accounted for over 70 hogs in the '95-'97 time frame and none had to be shot twice.

Nice shootin'!

THis ^^^^^

As far as the intruder hearing you rack the slide on an 870 , drop the bolt on a semiautomatic and tell me the intruder won't hear that either.

Is that guy's name "Franky Four Fingers?"

It must suck to be stuck at 9 years old.

I carried an Ithaca 37 with 000 loads in the Navy.
Never shot anybody with it but I knew it would make one hell of a mess if I did.

Doctor says I'm operating at a 12 year level since she changed my prescription.

Suck on that, dick breath.

#unarmedburglars


mike r

Most of these guys are just after some free Ball Park Burgers.

No harm, no foul

Hey buckfart, you're out of your punching weight mess'n day Clark.

Doesn't make much sense to scare someone off that's inside your house. Maybe they'll come back better prepared to kill your azz and take your guns next time.

That’s an OG’s version of the Shocker!

😂😎

Bro...

Didn't you read his post?

Humpty-Dumpty got no brain. Let's be nice.

Come on Blackheart, lighten up a bit, gotta admit that was kinda funny.

Who is trying to scare someone inside of my house, my intent is to kill them?

Other then a breakopen shotgun which can be closed with little noise , they are going to make noise loading them.

A handgun is the weak sister to rifle or a shotgun. The 72 caliber hole a shotgun makes, with out expansion of the load is a game changer for sure. Expansion of the load is even better. Having seen first hand what a load of 12 ga. low brass number 6 shot does to a bad person meaning to do harm at 11 feet is sage, real world stuff. Read that as, across a living room. It was definitive and calming of all hostilities ongoing at that moment. The bad guy was quieted down instantly, dropped his knife and elected to move to another world. Two votes for the scatter gun! Yo!

You guys have a strange outlook on things.

I don't want to kill anybody.

steel #12 shot?

Just think about all the suckers who know almost nothing about guns and bullets and by those 223s for home defense. Guess what cartridges they are buying, the cheap FMJs or more expensive SPs?

Scarey.

Big hog. Did you ever check to see how many No3 B penetrated through the shoulder and how far into the other?

Good job. With the liver hit its surprising he didnt bleed out.

I think shooting someone center mass in a normal sized home with 4s or even 6s would get the job done.

I have a friend who told me it's almost impossible to close up a couple hundred little gut holes. Those are the more peripheral hits.

deflave, I sure don't want to kill anyone, but there are one or two guys I wouldn't grieve much for if I saw their names in an obituary.

I'm going to go watch another episode of "The Little Rascals" and have a talk with my dog now. The Rascals are funnier than you guys and the dog is smarter so it's a win-win for me.

At about 30'. I was aiming at center of mass. When he turned toward me, his right arm was in the center of the group. He should have dropped the Glock, but when he turned toward me I didn't wait to fire. Needless to say, it was an extremely high pucker factor event. I was very tempted to shoot him a second time, but remembered that it looks bad when you shoot a person who is on the ground.

It cost about $10K to defend against the civil suit. I think that the pictures of the pulped hand holding the wrecked Glock in it was a key factor in the jury's decision to not hold me accountable. I bet that it's a bitch to change a colostomy bag when you only have one hand.

EDIT: He was a meth head, so it's possible that his injury and subsequent prison term helped him get clean and sober.

I shot a buck that ran by me once at about 18 yards. I was shooting lead 4s from duck hunting before the steel shot laws. Most went completely through the chest and out the other side iirc. That was at 54 ft.

I'd hate to see what they did to a person at 10-20 ft.

Perhaps you have a better understanding of the aftermath than most here?

If our laws were halfway sane, those who sued you should have been on the hook for every penny you spent in your own defense.

Or your state should have a law like Florida does, which prevents civil suits if you've been criminally cleared, or the DA chose not to prosecute you, due to justified self-defense.

Nice and adequate.

WOW. Some of you people need to get a sense of humor. You are actually on the internet in with an imaginary gun and an imaginary burglar. And Deflave I love ya baby but you’re the wrong color. Ed k

This, and even with 6s.

I didn't lose much sleep over shooting this guy. This was really a him or me situation that played itself out in less than a minute. My advice is that if you decide that you need to confront a home invader, you need to be locked, loaded, and mentally prepared to use your firearm before he uses his.

Thanks, Doc. I agree on the semiauto also. My concern with the big buckshot is with regard to other residents in the house in other rooms who may have moved from normal locations after the sounds of a breakin.

I prefer lead shot which will deform and rip and tear tissue. Indoors, I'm not worried about getting penetration, even through a hoodie.

No. His Indian name is “Shoots the bird with half the effort”

I use 2 3/4" 1 1/2 ounce of #4 shot for home defense, I wont get over penetration like you will with 00 buck and I mean going through walls and hitting someone else in another room. I seen first hand what #4 shot will do to someone at 20 feet, it's not very pretty, it would be hard to patch someone up after that.

You did good!Things could’ve went drastically different. I’m glad to hear that things turned out the way that they did for you.

No.

I just love people.

That's bigotry.

My recollection is that about 1/3 of the shot exited the off side. Rather surprised me at the time but it was a common occurrence.

I have a retarded friend that loves that show.

I thought I was racist. Gotta look up the difference on the internet I guess. Ed k

Oh don't get me wrong.

I'm a big fan of most people dying.

I just don't want to be the cause.

My 20 No 3 Buck is bigger and made by Reminton. I think that's what's in Win also, RC.

As I said above, make a "bad shot" inside the house with buckshot, and you will blow his arm off.

If they are breaking into an occupied home, you AREN'T the cause.

That is completely on them.

When the bolt drops on my Benelli 20 or AR, his ears will be ringing and he probably will be bleeding.

And know better than to applaud killing folks on a permanent record.

On a side note, we used to refer to moribund patients and targets as "humptyfukt"


mike r

My favorite is an old Rossi .12ga coach gun with 3'' #fours.A Ruger .45lc is in the nightstand for backup and the wifes .38 is in the other.

A friend of mine was hit with a charge of #4 bird shot in a turkey hunting accident years go. He took over a hundred pellets in the chest, shoulder, neck and head from about 30 yards and it damn near killed him. He said it was the most pain he had ever experienced in his life and he truly thought he was going to die. They removed as many pellets as was practical but he still carries several in his sinuses, chest, neck and head. Some of the pellets were too close to vital organs/arteries/nerves to risk removing. He lost his left eye and a couple pellets penetrated the skull and are still lodged in his brain.

Good thinking.

I mentioned the 14 patients I worked hit with birdshot at inside-the-house ranges. All were dead, most were dead when we got to the scene. These were all 20, or 16, or 12 gauge.
I do recall one call I ran, two brothers were rabbit hunting. Boys age 10 and 12. They had .410 shotguns loaded with #6 shot.
They were crossing a barbed wire fence. The second brother was going through the fence and his shotgun discharged. From 10 feet away he hit his brother right in the middle of the back of the neck. There in the neck, you have the spine, you have the spinal column with all the nerves, and you have the jugular veins and the carotid arteries.
When we got to the scene that little boy was dead. We tried the resuscitation of course but he stayed dead.

So even the anemic little .410, loaded with small shot, is a real killer at close range. I wouldn't use a .410 for household defense, but, I wouldn't want to get hit with one, either.

In response to someone's question, believe it or not I never saw someone hit with a .223 Most of the shootings are done with cheap guns, like the .22, the .32 auto, the .25 auto etc. See a lot of .38 special and a few .45 Colt and .357 mag.
Saw a few rifle wounds, saw a guy get his leg blown in two at mid thigh with a 7 mag. He lived but what a mess!

Of all those patients I saw hit with bird shot, one really stands out. Most of these were dead when we got there. A few made it to the ER with a pulse but only one or two made it to surgery, where they died.
I had one guy from the county next door. He was a timber faller, big giant black guy about 27 years old, working all day with that chains saw he was 6-4 and 230, looked like Black Superman. Got into an argument with the girlfriend and she let him have it in the belly with one load of #8 from a 12 gauge. See, it is a lot harder to kill a young man, in shape, than to kill a fat old geezer.
The next county EMS brought him to my hospital, and our docs couldn't handle him we took him to the big hospital in Macon Ga. for more surgery etc.
I attended the 45 minute ride. This guy was conscious and alert. I couldn't believe this guy, 12 hours after the shooting he was looking good! I thought he was going to break the record of the 13 consecutive corpses.

We delivered him to Medical Center of Macon and he looked pretty good. Just to make sure I called The Med 3 days later on my next shift. They told me, he died 6 hours after we dropped him off, kidney failure.

DD, dont tell anyone this, but a couple of times trying to neak up on a muley buck bedded in thick, heavy mesquite in low holes, in the West Texas sandhills, I have slung the rifle over my shoulder and carried the 20 with buckshot.

Holy crap! That would suck.

One of the early pictures showed what is wrong with 00 or 000 buck. There is so much space left with nothing it in. If you go with # 1 buck, it fills up all of the available extra space.

Another consideration is the actual weight of the projectile. You will get a much heavier grain weight from smaller buck than with the larger version. Therefore a greater felt impact by the recipient.

Peter Hathaway Capstick did an article on this very subject. His argument for small buck is very convincing.




'

They get the turkey?!

Seriously though, sounds like a bad accident. Glad your buddy made it.

I’m shocked! Won’t tell anyone, I promise.

Stuff I’ve killed with scatterguns in my life would challenge a couple of 18 wheelers I’m guessing. The rifles are trying to catch up but they have a long ways to go. I have never had to shoot anything twice with a shotgun, be it birds or furry/fuzzy critters. Birdshot, buckshot or slugs.

Fella with a good gun that fits and with understanding of how it patterns is a force to be reckoned with.

DD

PS: I love the sound of a 12 bore Forster smacking a pig in the morning.

Touch that thing off early on a cool quiet morning on a bushy tail and a smell a bit of heaven.

Man, I miss those red waxed paper hulls.

It's a training problem and a shotgun isn't going to help that.

The real problem is, most people don't believe they have a training problem. They've never done low-light, they've never been in a shoothouse. They've never done force-on-force or been put under stress of a clock with an instructor yelling at them. Most are incapable of manipulating their weapons and the controls without looking at them. Under stress they are going to fumble with whatever is in their hands.




Yep. In tests we conducted with Federal Flite-Control, we're talking many yards beyond the old A, B and C Zones of buckshot before you get any appreciable spread beyond fist-sized patterns.





Mindset is the most important part of the equation here. Without it none of the others things work.

This is where I’m coming from. Not out of concern for the perp either.

My own home defense plan starts with a barking dog and continues with the .38 j frame Airweight I’ve been packing for the past 25 years.

And if they get me...... bwahahahaha! There ain’t sh$t they can get to in my house worth pawning anyhoo..... 🙂


I did loan my Democrat Catholic Hispanic Ex BiL and his family at their request my over under Yildiz .20ga for the duration. #4 steel shot was all they had left in the store. Took him out and had him shoot it.

Administratively simple and better’n a sharp stick.

Best post on the subject so far.


mike r

Like the cops that took 42 shots to put down a nasty stray pit bull in an alley way here a few years ago ? Or the ones who shot up the ceiling, floor, walls and target frames every time they used our range ? That kind of poor training ?

This sounds like a good idea, until they set the building alight and smoke you out.

Been running an 870 since I was 8 years old. Uncle shortened the stock on a 12ga. Express, and we went duck hunting. Got my first Mallard drake that morning. Turkeys, deer, dogs, squirrels, quail, doves, ducks, geese, crows, and a coyote or three. Rabbits, too, although I prefer a rifle for those and squirrels. Shot loads of clay birds, and used one to eject several bikers from a friend’s bar once. My house gun is an 870P loaded with five 3” 4buck loads, 41 pellets each, backed by two slugs. Two more slugs in the Speedfeed stock. It’s my town gun. House is just me and wife and the GSD. 4 buck won’t kill the neighbors. When we get moved into the farm, the 870 will stay by the bed, but the AR will get top billing. No neighbors close enough to worry. A .223 ballistic tip is nasty to any realistic SD distance, and that gun shoots where I look. 870 does too, but in spite of my decades long use of the shotgun in the field, I like a rifle better when I can use it. And if I need to make a head shot for some reason, it’s a chip shot with that rifle. To me, the Glock, which also shoots instinctively at this point, is for places I can’t take a long gun, or as a secondary to back up my long gun.

As far as killing a person, I am not wanting to. But if they come all the way out to my house in the night and break their way into it, they already came past a locked gate, a dog in the yard, and breached my home. At that point, they are a dead man. No quarter given to a hostile who has been inside my home, because he isn’t coming back when he is more familiar with the place and maybe my wife is there alone. She will kill him too, and has the dog there, but why risk it?

Supposed to be a secret you bass-turd

Coyotes are fairly tough right? Called one into our set one morning and a doggy bout ran over my son. He recovered and centered the feline in a 10 ga 2 1/4 oz load of plated #5's at around 15 yds. Near as we could tell it never quivered. Was a hole about every quarter inch.

I'm currently without a shotgun in the house for the first time in many decades. I've given 4 or 5 away over the past few years.

I've still got a rifle or 2.

But I don't really worry too much about home invasions out here. Some burglaries went on about 7 or 8 years ago. But those folks got rounded up and there's not been anything going on since then.

I have rifles a pistol or 2 but i really like what my 870 police 18 in. cyl.choke does at house ranges.

I also cast my own number 1 buckshot out of ww and some tin for fill out.

The brother has been using the same shot for deer hunting in MS.and so far has 14 deer hit the ground.

All were running shots,one doe got a bad neck wound and almost lost head at about 25 yards.

No buckshot were found on the meat.

Never seen things die as fast as being shot with a shotgun. Whether a pitbull shot at 20 ft with 00 buck from a 14 inch 870 cylinder bore, or a coyote shot at 15 yards with #4 shot in a turkey load with extra full choke.
It was like an "Off" switch was hit.

This thread has me debating 00 buck vs #4 buck however.

Ain’t heard of the Hurons going on the warpath in 28 years. And that was in that movie.

Most likely to bust into a house around here are young men of limited means, IQ and education needed funds to buy controlled substances. Prob’ly Hispanic where I’m at.

I ain’t heard of home invasions yet as a viable career path, seems like most of these young men only get to pull off a very few. But then this is still Texas.

In fact 25 years ago a School Admin living four houses down shot and killed a high school punk who mistakenly assumed he wasn’t home.

He wasn’t an Admin at that school but he sold his house and moved after that. I never met the guy, I weren’t moved in yet.

My bedside weapons are an 870 loaded with 2 rubber buckshot followed by 3 lead #5 and an AK47 with a 30 round clip. I really believe I would use the 870 if the situation warranted it. However a forced entry by a crazy would call for the rifle. I've used an 870 for over 50 years so it is very familiar and easy to handle even if it is too dark to see. I believe the rubber shot at 20 feet would work in most cases and getting to the lead loads would go pretty fast.

Dang man, you got me beat! I thought forty years was a while to be using one. Come to think on it, I suspect there’s a lot of fellas here have used one longer. Maybe some used it more. Fifty years would probably qualify as experienced, as long as it was in the field more than the safe.😁

Enablers. I think I am going to look at VRBP100 tomorrow.

My 870 is stoked with 00 and #4.

This thread has devolved into the annals of CF goofy schidt. Those apaches and jigaboos will burn you and your rubber buckshot out into the open! Wake up ma and hep me find that boomstick and the right shot!



mike r

Clint Patterns the ShockWave

In all fairness, the guy that just whacked around two dozen folks in Nova Scotia was burning folks’ houses and shooting them when they ran out. Precedent set...

I'm trying to remember the last time home invaders burned someone out here in the metro area. Besides, stealing the wagon and straw would be a lot of work.

Of course, if someone's attempting to burn your house, or any occupied dwelling in this state, deadly force if justified.

I did say the gun has 3 lead #5 right behind the sub lethal loads and also an AK47 at hand. I just like the idea of sub lethal if someone needs a little lesson in manners like the day a mad wife beater chased his wife up on my carport and she managed to barge in the house for refuge.

Exactly. Thank you.

"The Warden's" uncle - ~ my age - named Ernie Lopez, why he carried his riot gun with a slug, followed by buckshot?
His answer - sometimes you gotta knock out the window so them meskins can hear you!

Ever heard an 870's slide worked in anger? A assure you it is a sound that will get your attention instantly and that you will remember half a century later.

Yep. Mine has heavy turkey load # 6 shot for the first round followed up by 3 # 4 Buck. Last round is a big ole lead slug. 🤠

Those were the days. I loved the smell of Federal paper target loads fired on the skeet range.

I bought an 870 tac 14 20 gauge a few months ago but didn't get around to getting and 20 gauge buckshot before the virus hit.

I have a box of 1 ounce #6 pheasant loads sitting near it. They might be ok at in house range. I'd like to get a pistol brace for it instead of the little pistol grip it came with. I'm not sure if its legal to change it out though. The law on these isn't that clear to me.

Bb

You can put the brace on it and it makes a nice light handy little defender out of it. Much easier to shoot too. I built one of the Mossberg versions for a buddy and it shot great. The 870 is better in my opinion because you can reach the safety with your shooting hand.

I noticed several posters load a birdshot for the first round and then follow that up with buckshot. What is the point of that?

I do. Where I live you are more apt to need your shotgun for a critter than a kneeegar.

I follow the advice that was given to me by my long-dead best friend back in the early 80's. He was a retired Marine armorer who had worked as a cop and owned a gun store in a bad neighborhood. He said 12 GA was all you needed-- 5 shot pump or auto. He said your first shot will be coming out of sleep; you will be groggy. The perp will not be expecting it. Load low-brass #6 squirrel load in the chamber. Most times, this is enough. At close range, a round of low-brass #6 hits a perp at close range as a single mass, even from an open choke. If you're on target and hit the center of mass, it takes out heart or lung or whatever and does not exit. This may not be fatal, but it is the single most important thing that has happened to the perp all day, and it will be the only thing on his mind from then on. If you're lucky, that's all you need. The perp flees and does the favor of bleeding out somewhere else than your living room. If you miss, low-brass #6 will still penetrate an interior wall, but it won't wreck the place. Missing on the first shot is common. You're still groggy. However, the sound works on both you and the perp. Being in a room when a 12 GA goes off will clarify your mind as well as the perp's. The perp will now be doing everything he can to leave. You'll be sharp as a tack.

The next round should be #4 Buck. This is enough to kill, but now the perp is on the move as well. You should be withdrawing to an easily defensible room. The next 2 rounds should be #00 or #000 Buck. You're backing into your bathroom or back bedroom; the perp is now pursuing you. The vectors are now clear and linear. If this fool is stupid enough to pursue you, it's time to bring up the artillery. Your last round should be deer slug. This is for when you've locked yourself in the bathroom, and the door rattles. Aim through the door and finish the job.

You've filled 2 18 wheelers full of game and never had to shoot anything twice with a shotgun?

Did it sound like I was stuttering?

My dad was a rather meticulous teacher and taught me well. I have on a few occasions had to wring a few bird necks.

Guys, this racking the slide, slamming a bolt home on a semi, rubber bullets chit has got to go, if you're alone, job one is staying alive, if your wife, kids, grandkids are in the residence, job one is keeping them alive, ANYTHING that has breached your home doesn't even need to be able to hear you release the safety.

I have a 12 gauge shotgun in the bedroom for my home defense gun. If I can hit a rabbit that bolted. A squirrel running down a treelimb. Or a.dove zigzaging. I am certain I can center a man in the hallway. I feel pretty certain #4 Buck will end the threat at < 20 feet. My 90 pound German Shepherd dog that sleeps at the foot of the bed will have them bayed when they come in. She hears things out in the street and yard that we could never hear. I keep my shotgun in a rack I built 30 years ago for the purpose. I hope I never have to try it's effectiveness.

My Gramps left camp with an A5, cap, coat and a knife, he would shoot deer out of their beds, yes, I believe You!

Agreed. Along with some other good advice from Hotrod_Lincoln, Doc Rocket, and 260Remguy. Ironic that the guy with actual firsthand experience, with a positive outcome, is largely lost in an otherwise entertaining discussion.

Ah, you are a psycho, getting upset when someone asks about what you posted. That explains why you cannot accept that sometimes things don't die when shot with a shotgun and must be shot again. You have plenty of company. Lots of psychos on the Fire.

Wetting pants.

That reminds me of a story an instructor told us in the academy years ago.

Short version; he was was waiting in a house with the female RP for a would be rapist/stalker. The guy came to the door, she opened the door and the instructor was standing there with her. Instructor racked the slide, the perp was stunned and wet himself.

Great advice super T. As a civilian, if you believe your life is in grave danger, there is only one correct response; to stop the threat. Advice about warning shots and shooting to injure (like "taking their legs out") is really bad advice.

If you are unlucky enough to have to use deadly force to defend yourself, even the best outcome (stopping the threat and staying out of jail) will certainly turn your life upside down and have severe costs if you have to defend yourself in the courts.

*Edited to add: In many states or localities, civilians have the obligation to retreat before using deadly force. That is not so everywhere, and some "retreat" states, like Michigan, have since passed castle doctrine laws that give standing to the concept that your home is your castle and so you do need to retreat while defending your home. I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice; your laws, beliefs, and situation will surely differ.

Why do you come here then? DD posts the truth and knows more about chitt that kills then you will ever know. You obviously have zero idea of what a shotgun can and cannot do.

Upset? Surely you jest.

See my sig line. The first one.

From the Group W bench,

DD

^^^This. Dad found out the shotgun by my bed was always hot, round chambered, and asked me why. Said chamber empty was safer, and the intruder gets the warning of hearing that slide rack. I said, “Exactly”. If one breaks into my home, the last thing they will get is a warning. The first thing they will see is a disorienting and momentary blast of light, and if they are a threat, the immediate result will be muzzle blast. The only thing that may prevent that follow up is if the light identifies one as less than a mortal threat, such as a disoriented person from meds or similar, or being a member of the family or a friend. The latter group all knows better than to break in, and the former group would be assessed on a pretty harsh scale. But things happen, and I am willing to take that half a second to identify what I am fixing to snatch the life out of.

Years ago, as a young man, I was renting a room from a lady I worked with, and I usually left for work at around 5 am. So one morning in particular, I walk out the door, and as I turn to lock it behind me, I hear someone rack a slide on a shotgun in the dark. The sound came from the driveway around the corner of the house. That gets your attention.

About two seconds later, I am looking at a guy standing there in the light of my Surefire, across the sights of my Glock, and he is blinded and hearing some yahoo screaming at him to drop the weapon. Which he does immediately. About this time, I notice he is all geared up in camo, and my brain realizes it’s turkey season. Turns out he is the landlady’s son in law, coming to turkey hunt on her place. She never mentioned it to me.

Both of us were a bit frazzled after that, but he was pretty understanding about the whole thing, and the landlady was apologetic about it. All of us were simply glad that nobody got hurt or killed. It cemented in my mind early on the importance of a proper light being properly employed with a weapon, as well as the requirement to identify the target prior to opening fire. There are a million things that can happen, many of them may seem like a threat, but turn out to be something else entirely. The slim chance of being killed by taking a moment to identify your target in such situations is far less of a concern to me than living life having taken the life of someone who was no threat to me.

Apologies.

This. Awesome combo.

That's a horrible video.

A proper 870.

All the people who are hypothesizing a sudden groggy wake up from sleep at the sound of a home invader bumping a piece of furniture in the darkness of your home must not have dogs. Dog will wake you up when the invaders enter your property line outside, or before. By the time they get to the door or window, you will be fully awake.

Back in college, we'd shoot flies off the wall with 22 LRs. We'd run out of .22s on occasion, so we'd dump the pellets out of some quail loads, and fire the wads at the flies. Those wads never once failed to penetrate sheetrock. That's my way of saying, shotguns have serious potential, especially at self defense range.

Shotguns have made the absolutely nastiest wounds, on people or critters I have ever seen and yes: the sound of a pump being racked is a psychological deterrent. I've seen it. Maybe not to someone whacked out on meth, but to anyone resembling sober it can very possibly have a guy avoiding a lot of paperwork, lawyer troubles and mental issues. Killing anyone who breaks in may sound good in theory but I'll bet $ most folks who are unfortunately put into that situation have different afterthoughts...Lethal shot absolutely has it's place, but I think the non-lethal loads do too.

Probably 10-12 years ago, some Rambo near my hometown shot at a burglar in his home, fully intent on killing him and ended up shooting and killing a family member in the next room over. I can't remember if it was with a shotgun or rifle, or any specifics about the situation, but Rambo committed suicide a while later. Chew on that for a while.

Therein is found the basis for thinking before one jerks the trigger, and some thought before the fact. Situational awareness is the path to success and key to avoiding disaster. Using friends, family and neighbors as backstops is a poor idea.

I have no idea how many of you fellas have been in a gunfight, but keeping emotions under control is paramount. You and your chosen weapon have capabilities. Operate within those limits and avoid the Hail Mary theory like someone’s life depends on it, because it does.

Having foresight would be helpful but impossible, so you could know if the dipshît was armed or just a stupid kid who’d learn a good lesson by you beating him bloody vs cutting him in half with a shotgun

But, those fûckers that come in armed - Sorry Travis, I’m all in for ending them on my tile, hardwood or carpets with prejudice.


😎

Foresight is quite possible, and is not constrained by the multitude of variables at play. One might imagine the perp’s vulnerability by looking at his/her perspective as they force entry for example.

Happens all the time. The Fire is very clique aware.

Did that once in a house I rented in Oak Cliff a Dallas suburb. They had broken into the garage which was built into the house. The door from the garage into the house had been built in so I went out the front door and accosted the two jerks who immediately became submissive when they saw my 45. Had them lay on the grass face down till the police got there. I was interrogated for an hour, they cuffed the two illegals and took them to jail. Apparently they let them go that evening and they were standing in front of my place when I left for work the next day! I called the cops at the corner convenience store and asked WTH, they said they had released them because of lack of evidence! When I got home from work everything of value in the house was gone right down to a POS toaster, the dishes and they even took my dog! So screw being a nice guy and the hell with the Dallas cops.

sorry to hear about that ,that just enforced what i would do if that happens to me > looks like i will be showing my attorney`s card and cleaning and washing my garage floor.

https://tituskustoms.com/f5-can-launcher/

Punch a bad guy with a 12oz can at close range. That would be cool. Shasta is cheap ammo

Yessir, I'm no copper or master trainer at the shoot em up academy, only have the simple thought that I DONT know how many there are, and DONT know what they're carrying, so, with thieves basically being the cowardice coyotes they are, if they see one of their felonious partners in crime get splattered they'll be getting some gone, don't believe they'll take up a position to return fire trying to steal something that doesn't belong to them, even to them, their asses [lives] have to be more valuable.

Use Budweiser. Cheap shoot and bait.

For ingins?

Some of you fuggers sound like you’ve turned your house into a huge bait site, with you laid up waiting, hoping to cull a human unworthy of reproducing offspring....This is for the betterment of society, of course.

Cull Away boyz!

😜😎

Those missed shots go somewhere. They may not hit the target, but they are still dangerous for other people.

I'm getting the impression that a shotgun is recommended because you can't miss with one. That's not true. Those big 40" wide patterns you see in pictures are shot at 40 yards. The longest shot possible inside my home is 21 feet or 7 yards. At that distance, the shot pattern is only as big as a fist. You still have to aim. The advantage of a shotgun is that it's easier to aim than a handgun and hits are more effective.

I had the opportunity to shoot 3 different Intruders and never pulled the trigger, thank God. Two of the times were black dudes that entered the wrong hotel room and wrong condo to fix a sink. I had the lazer on their heads and one pizzed himself. The other one was doped up and just opened the door and walked right in. He started waving his hands at me when I jumped up so I pistol wipped him to the ground. The only person I actually shot at I missed but he definitely got the message. I'd have a hard time shooting someone if I wasn't in fear of my life.

Just as a point of information, the Los Angeles Sheriff's Dept. has long issued #4 buckshot to deputy sheriffs for its shotguns. I know that load has been highly effective in stopping the actions of bad guys. (I think that #4 buckshot is also issued to Los Angeles Police Dept. officers, too, but am not positive.)

FWIW.

L.W.

That highlighted sentence is a very succinct summation of this whole discussion about why to choose a shotgun over a handgun.

Bullsheit, I know you. 😂😂

Anyone here not believe #9 birdshot will go all the way through a refridgerator? Lost 20.00 bucks on that trick.

I have learned on this thread that lots of folks are prescient and can anticipate the time and nature of the attack and will have plenty of time to get that scatter gun. I have heard more discussion of shot weight and type than of moving w/ a light and target ID in an environment that may contain other people. I have enjoyed the legendary deterrent effect of racking that 870 as oft repeated by the cop/marine/gunshop guy. Some folks are lucky enough to live where they don't have to worry about the boogeymen.

What seems mostly absent is discussion of training events attended, practicing moving through your home w/ a long gun or handgun or planning w/ your family on how to act in a life threatening emergency. I doubt if many practice these situations on a regular basis or dryfire weekly w/ their weapon of choice. Skeet shooting is good practice...for shooting birds. I'm sure that everyone has a plan if there is a housefire and practice it w/ their family. No one has yet said how they will accomplish a 20 yard headshot w/ their shotgun if needed or said that they carry a long gun at all times.

Hope, theory and internet discussions are so much easier than learning, planning and training.

YMMV


mike r

With respect....This sounds like utter bullshît!

😎

Ok, I will say this about shotguns for home defense...ouch!

3” 12 ga full house 00 buck kills at both ends. This thread had me curious so I grabbed my M1 that I just used turkey hunting and swapped the full choke for an improved cylinder and shot it at 20 yards with two rounds of Winchester mil contract 00 buck I bought bulk a few year back. Even found some old life sized a-hole targets to shoot at.

It basically feels like shooting a turkey load; with heavy recoil. I wouldn’t hesitate to use it in a defensive situation...and YMMV...but I’ll continue to have my AR’s and Glocks at the ready all day, every day.

I’m a believer in perfect practice makes perfect, and that you should train with the gun and loads you plan to rely on.

I doubt many guys train with full house 00 buck for long. 200 rounds of 5.56 (200/28= 7 mags), is a pleasant training session. 200 OO buck pellets (200/9=22 shells) is a black and blue shoulder and a headache. I don't believe heavy recoil is conducive to accurate shooting, fast follow up shots or more rounds on target. It applies to both hunting and home defense. For me, there’s no comparison—pass the carbine.

Well it ain't, I personally know him, and what he says you can take to the bank. One of the most down to earth, honest fellas you'll ever meet.

Mirage’s testimony leaves us with no choice.

We must trust the TrueGrit pending further review.

3" magnum loads in the home are unnecessary and will slow down following shots. Home defense for most of us centers around bad people, not marauding grizzly bears or African lions. That's a separate conversation.

But ya have to love the "RESPECTFULLY, you're full of chit" post. Very polite.

10-4

Bullshît meter will be recalibrated based on your testimony.

😬😎

It’s always best to offer a polite opening before doing dirt on someone. 😎

Yea, I'd a called bullsheit too if I didn't know him. 😁

He's a character and has lived an interesting life.

I'm just surprised he didn't kill none of em 😂😂

Appears TG may benefit from slinging a Benelli instead of a pistol....Grins 😎

Respect, is our foundation.

The Beav knows this.

Well I have read all the post through 12 and have learned a lot.I'm one of the
newest guys on fire, but wanted to add to discussion about old guys here.
Tomorrow I will be 77 yrs and my 870 will be 61. It was a present on my 16th.
It is in a rack on my side of the bed. Wife has a 45 New Service on her side.
We know how to use them. Pray we never have to. Distance from Bed , down
the hall is 36 ft. to the front foyer. Counting on one of the dogs waking us.
But if someone enters house without announcement...well. 870 is loaded with
a#71/2 spreader load, #6 spreader followed with 3 rounds of 00 buck. The #71/2
was 4" up and down and 14" wide at 20'. #6 was about 4" by 12" both on a 1/2"
4'x4' pc of sheetrock.
Gosh if I could have all the memories back that old 870 and I have made, it would
take a while to get through em.
Oldcuss

That's a 12yd. shot down that hall, I'd want #4 buck to start. Or at least #2 lead. Put him on his ass quick.

What sort of light do you use when gunnin' w/ that 870?



mike r

Yep!

Mike, tossin' this your way just for thought. Next time you wake up in the middle of the night, how do you find the bathroom? Any night lights in the house? Lights outside that transmit a little light inside? Reason I ask, is that when you awaken at 0-dark thirty your night vision is as good as you will ever experience. Quite possibly it's better than that of the buttinskis breaking into your nest. Take a look, imagine a scattergun in your mitts and ask yourself why you want to turn on a light on your gun to make a perfect target out of yourself.

They know what they want to do, but really don't know the layout of your home or where you are. Keep surprise on your side.

Massad Ayoob related an incident where an armed homeowner shot an intruder with bird shot, horribly scarring and permanently blinding the perp.

The appearance of the guy who was shot was enough to sway a civil jury, even though it was a legal use of force, the homeowner lost heavily.

Massage Ayboob???

Holy fugk.

Go work on your pretend school work. LOL

DDan - absolutely, no lights -And have no need to rack the slide
til after the first shot.
Oldcuss

What? He made it up?

I can find the bathroom and my wiener in the dark, I can"t ID friend from foe in the same level of light and our house has plenty of windows. I have practiced for hours in my home w/ the ambient light available and know that POSITIVE target ID is slower and less reliable w/out a light.


YMMV


mike r

Don't forget, you have a huge advantage inside your own home, you know every square inch and what's behind every wall. The bad guy don't.

You’re too old to require all this hand holding.

He made up most of his resume and advice. He was however a good shot on the range. Just a guess but I am thinking that you have never attended one of his classes. He is an expert at demonstrating his expertise w/ compliant adversaries, LMFAO.


mike r

OK, I presume you have met the man and I have no basis for doubting your word that Massad Ayoob is a liar.

What do you think about fine birdshot like 6 and 7.5's for home defense?

But you ain't too old to avoid the question?

I'm not sure what part is utter BS to you. I take my personal protection very serious and I honestly don't know why I didn't shoot any of the three. It's totally out of character for me. The 2 guys coming into the condo happened in 2018 on Jekyll Island and I heard them screwing with the lock on the door so I was more than ready, they couldn't find their master key. The guy I knocked out was at a police sergeants house of all things. Guess you'd really think I was BSing if I said I've been shot in the right lung with a 38, been stabbed and gutted by a punk from Colorado, and run over in our parking lot by a redneck that I threw out of our bar. Yep, I'd sure hate for the truth to get in the way of a good story.

I told Beaver you weren't playin' 😁😁

He didn't mean nothin' by it, he's really a pretty good dude.

I don't think you need much of an advantage. Life is unreal sometimes.

As to the low light positive ID of possible friendlies, it ain’t happening. And in a dark house(we don’t use night lights and limit other sources of light when we sleep), where I am familiar and the intruder is not, a momentary blast of hundreds of lumens of white light followed by darkness let’s me ID the target and does more to disorient them than help them locate me. It’s not like I do this while centered in a fatal funnel, either. And if that light shows a stranger who is armed, the light going out and the trigger being pulled happen simultaneously. And yes, I have trained for this over the last several years.

Besides, it sounds better in court that I used a light to ascertain the nature of the threat than to say I put on the NOD I had on my nightstand and ambushed them in the pitch black house...😂

Apologies for calling you a bull-shît artist....You’re as close to living a John Wick life as anyone. Laffin.

I stand by my statement you should try a shotgun. Grins.

PS,
I hope the rest of your life is peaceful and quiet. You deserve it after the carnage you’ve experienced.


😬😎

I think it's best that you stick to birds and bicycles.

Anyone who doesn't know that a shotgun is the most effective, and safest, weapon in close quarters is ignorant or stupid.

I didn't do it, but walked up on the aftermath of a guy that took a load of #1 Buck in the belly button at spitting distance, the crushing blast and momentum of the shot charge knocked both of his hips out of their sockets, he was dead, and I believe.

I've met a couple war veterans that would not agree.

But enjoy your absolute.

When asked a specific question, you weasel. <"shrug">

How dare you question his Authoritah

I'm sure you see it that way.

Ayoob strikes me as a boob. A self styled expert long on opinion and seemingly short on experience. But who knows, maybe he is the “real deal”.

Shotguns at close range are undeniably destructive. Even a load of 4’s or 6’s inside 15’ or so is just nasty.

Better than an AR? I dunno. Would with out doubt take a shotgun over any pistol if someone was beating in my door.

If a bad guy was beating my door down and I had a choice between a shotgun or a handgun the shotgun would win every time....

How anyone can take anyone serious in a toupee is beyond me, that shows first thing they cant be real, all I need to see.

Thank you.

He's an honorary reserve police officer in fugking New Hampshire.

What more do you need to know?

What about option three?

Ya, retired Police Detectives are so often FOS on things like this.......

My post was a hit and run.... what is question three? I would be happy to answer as I have answers to everything......

OK.

Your COCK!!!!

Fubar, I think this is third option Travis referred to:

He reminds me of all the dudes that taught “karate” to Navy Seals before they opened their dojo in the strip mall near the Walgreens.

Ok, thanks Sniper, the answer is ar15 , 11" barrel , brace , suppressor with lights, red dots etc.... with 40 gr vmax handloads......

Pretty much my only experience with a shotgun for defensive use is a 3 day course I took back in the nineties. I had Hans Vang build my 870 for me and it does work very well. https://www.vangcomp.com/

If anything, I learned that defense shotguns can be very devastating in the right hands, need a light and should be set up so the user is able to maintain tight groups keeping 00 buck in the bad guy out to 25 yrds. to avoid hitting bystanders, and slug groups at a 100yrds can be covered with one hand. When I do my part my Vang Comp 870 can do those things, no chokes to remove etc... This being the case, your bird gun sitting in the corner is somewhat limited and the user should prepare and train accordingly if that is their weapon of choice.

I realize keeping an unlocked weapon with full magazine AND chamber is a fool's recipe. Read it on the innanet so the joke's on me. So me and my fool wife keep weapons available in common sense areas of the house, including an upstairs and downstairs Alamo. Every round possible onboard, safety engaged if applicable. With doors number 1 and/or 2 occupied with defensive appliances and 50% chance of a dilated pupil, sweaty palmed, nerves raw & bleeding, estrogen fired, nuclear attitude womenfolk with something between .38 Special and #3 buckshot locked and loaded, positioned to fire with eyes locked on the bad guy's access point, doors 3 and up are a home wrecker's only hope for survival. The scary thing about my wife isn't that she can use most guns. It's that she's willing to pull the trigger, a lot.

And as you say there won't be any audible mechanicals intended to frighten somebody that has already exhibited willingness to assault by breaking into our home. Only rubber is grips or butt stocks. Only vocals a high pitched screeching detectable between shots. He had his only warning when he encountered the first locked door.

Yep! This.

That didn't take long.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner!

Ignorant AND stupid!

use what you shoot best, I'm good with a pistol even though I don't practice much anymore, I won't miss. I have an AR, a pistol and an 870 in arms reach of my bed. I'd probably grab the pistol first.

So Duck should we call 911 or deploy riot gun?

I've got an 870...the one pictured earlier here, right in back of me from where I type this. In back of me on a table are my 44 Mag. Mountain Gun, my .40 M&P along with five or six loaded mags and a Ruger Mk.II with two loaded mags for varmints. The S&W AR is only feet away in the Hall. Mama's .357 Mag. Detective Special is in our bedroom.

I like a shotgun for self defense too. This one rides in the truck with me, along with my Springfield Loaded model.

Since we are talking home invasion.....

The police don't prevent crime. Nor does 911.

We protect ourselves. You call 911 to report the dead intruder, and the police investigate the scene.

Our personal protection is OUR responsibility. Not the police, not 911, not anyone.

But you know that.

Just remember, to be Super Deflave compliant the Red Dot has to be Aimpoint, and the Light a Streamlight.

LOL, hell of a home SD program there, and with your campfire handle, I had no doubt you'd shoot ; ]

So to stir this a little more...

What's best on the 870 for home defense....standard stock or pistol grip (with stock/butt)?


Regarding reliably....Letting a fairly new shooter shoot an 870 Friday afternoon resulted in a lock up on the first shot with cheap dove loads. Shot, he couldn't work the pump.....we'd walked through how to work the action several times and I only loaded 2 for him, let him chamber the first..... I had to disassemble...but I didn't drop the butt or pull on it very hard. Just sat it to the side. I've run a lot of standard 2 /34 00 through this and never had a problem. I'm guessing it's the bottom $ low brass dove ammo but I may need to polish it. Not a good feeling as this has always been my first choice "in the house" if I had time.

Were the cheap dove loads made in China?

Not sure there is a “better”. I got a good deal on a Benelli M1 Super 90 once, with the pistol grip stock. It was a good gun, but I found that FOR ME, the 870 worked better. Others’ mileage may vary.

MadMooner,

You might appreciate these videos.

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...king-youtube-recommendation#Post14785798

Lots of gun writers in the same era got away with the same type of bullschit.

Rex Kwon Doe. LOL

I know that you and the lieutenant probably agree on a lot of things.

Enjoy your absolutes.

If you told The Duck to grab the Shockwave, he'd return with his vibrator.

LOL.

Holy hell that's funny.





I must say though, I don't agree with this, unless you're not referring to guns or ranges measured in feet.
I carried a Benelli M1 on my first tour, and did so for a reason. A fair amount of our contact was in bayonet range.
Whether a shotgun is better than an AR for self defense I think has a lot to do with what you're comfortable with, as well as your specific circumstances, but from an utter destruction standpoint from a single shot (or even a magazine) and normal loads there's no comparison.
Besides, I've talked to plenty of vets that do not know dick about guns, but think they do because they have experience with a M16. I'd be curious to know more about the specifics of how those vets you talked to came to their conclusions.



.

It's fine to not agree.

But it doesn't make those that prefer an M4 ignorant or stupid.

Very true...and I assume you're referring to ltppowell there, and not myself.
I was focused specifically on qualitative destruction and it looks like you were referring to the "effective, and safest" part of his post. I see what you're getting at, and fully agree.

Correct.

I don't but if I had to guess probably late 1800s.

Fairly common back in the day to see patrol point men carrying a Win Mod 12. Quite common on the jungle trails.

My thoughts on a shotgun vs handgun-rifle for home defense.
I choose a shotgun. A Mossberg riot gun to be exact.

If you did a random survey of gun owners, 90% would tell you they were good or very good with a handgun. Most of them would be wrong. Same results with a rifle.
You need training. With a handgun or rifle, lots of training.
One can acquire basic shotgun skills much, much quicker.

I have the training and experience with handguns to claim to be very good, but I still choose a shotgun.

A home defense shooting most likely happens by surprise, at night when you are ½ asleep, and pumped up on adrenalin.
I want simple, instinctive and effective. A shotgun fit that bill better than a handgun/rifle.

“You still need to aim a shotgun”. Well yes and no. You really need to ‘aim” a handgun, and even trained professionals miss more than 50% of shots fired at bad guys. Just review police shootings.
With a shotgun, you just need to point and with a 12 inch pattern close counts.
Another point to consider, most exterior walls will stop anything smaller than 00 buckshot.
Most handgun rounds or any rifle will go right through and who know where it goes after that.

Some years back, I took my ten-year-old son shooting. He had never fired a shotgun in his life, but he wanted to try the “Riot gun”

"Your arms are not long enough to shoulder it, you’ll have to shoot from the hip".
"I don’t care, I want to shoot it".
"It’s heavy, and kicks like a mule".
"I don’t care, I want to shoot it".

I put a chest sized cardboard box 20 feet away and showed him how to work the action.
In less than five seconds, he hit the box solidly with all three shells, shredding it into confetti.

Like I said, not much training necessary.

The fact is, I am that good with a handgun. 10 years of shooting IPSC Action Pistol will do that.
But when something goes bump in the night, I’m reaching for that Mossberg riot gun.

Whole lot of nonsense in this post.

You keep on giving away free hamburgers and escorting the bad guys out with your .25 ACP.

I'll keep my 870.

Don’t disagree with anything, except the part about calling police officers trained professionals.😂

I have shot with a bunch of them, and watched even more shoot. There are some who are professionals, and who are trained. They are the ones who do it on their own and would be trained, badge or not. The rest are little better than the bubbas at the gun shop counter asking which gun is the cheapest. I bought a Beretta 92 once for a steal from a sheriff’s deputy that made detective and didn’t think he needed anything more than a 38 snubbie anymore, and told me he only carried that because they made him. This in a rural county overrun with meth.

In my present situation, the more hardware I have laying out, the more I'd have to lock away every time I left the house.

There ain't no hallways or stairs, the layout is such that if they came in, there we'd all be, the outcome to be decided in seconds.

This little Airweight is so familiar in the hand I could prob'ly shoot it in my sleep, heck I could prob'ly disassemble it and clean it in my sleep. And I don't gotta lock it away when I go out if its coming with me.

Five chances to get it right, if it don't, my kid gets to collect on the life insurance.




Works for me

You're too stupid to win anything.

Much less a fight.

Damn dude, that's some serious stuff.

Do you teach some self defense classes? I might want to sign up.

They used to show up to our IPSC shoots, acting all cocky like they were going to show us how it's done.
It was not uncommon for them to finish dead last.

I hope you're better with that than you are that smoothbore.

Although I seriously fugking doubt it.

I love this place, so respectful.

Guys with that many stories usually have an award winning personality.

You actually sit at home bitchin' at other guys over the internet all day.

Anyhoo.... at the range with that little revolver I concentrate on drills from the seven yard line; two shots center mass on a combat silhouette starting from a low ready position, repeat. Sometimes one handed with either arm.

Ten feet or less, in the dark, decided in the first two seconds is what Fairbairn wrote, so I give that a priority.

Whats the best lubricunt for a home defense shotgun?

Work the slide into a Duck.

As a result of this circular discussion one can deduce that if you don/t train and shoot well you better rely on your shotgun. It indicates that you will have ample warning to get that boomer so that negates the value of having it on your person. Most here can make headshots w/ buckshot and see in the dark. The value of following the Tao of Ayoob is the true path to enlightenment and will allow you to drink from the skulls of your enemies. Lessons learned.

A question. Assuming most that have responded carry a handgun at all times, when you get home do you dump that pistola and strap on a shotgun because you lack confidence in your competence w/ that handgun?

If you don't carry all the time your opinion on self defense matters may carry less weight.


mike r

I use Lucas Red or Lucas Extreme on all my firearms, save the Sharps and Black Powder belchers, they get Olive Oil.

What type of duck would you recommend? I have access to Mallard and muscovy.

Lots of things to consider when you're talking home defense and lots of retards giving advice.

My son was a sleepwalker when he was little. I woke up more than once to him standing over me.

I've gone to the wrong hotel/motel room before by accident. One time in a bad part of Indianapolis it happened to be chock full of short, fighting age males of latin persuasion.

Some things to consider when talking shoot first and fast.

Drills are great. Even better when they mimic the situation you will likely be in. i.e. laying down supine, then getting your gun and engaging rather than standing in front of a target with your roscoe already in your hand.

Now if I can just get them to install beds and night stands at the 5 yard line on my gun range.

Creativity isn't your strong suit I see. Or are you afraid to lay down on the ground?

Just start from a low ready, finger on the trigger and wait for the buzzer. It's all good.

In answer to the question, I carry all the time. Glock is near to hand even in the shower. Eighteen rounds of Gold Dots ready to roll 24/7. And it hits where I am looking. The shotgun and AR still become primary given time, because of the increased lethality. If I get caught with just the pistol, it’s still a bad day for the target. I just prefer a long gun if the option is available.

Stars & Bars working just fine for me here.




http://image.sportsmansguide.com/adimgs/l/6/634063_ts.jpg

I don't know what's "best". But if you can't defend yourself with an AR, you're probably out of luck.

A good friend ran a butcher shop for years, they kept a single shot 12ga in the
kill room as backup for the occasional radical old bitch. 1 1/4oz #4's were the load of choice. When the need would arise, th e procedure was to shove the
muzzle against the ribcage, and fire. Bob said it was instantaneous, and never
failed in the dozen or so times they needed it.

Not quite on topic, but closer than some.

Just funning with you Gruff.

Actually, I have an Umarex airsoft clone of my primary carry gun which allows in home practice.

Gruff, I used to train a lot with the pistols I used for EDC doing exactly what you’re talking about.

I would mimic as best I could a situation where my pistol was holstered and covered by layers of clothes and coat. My hands free and pretending to fight to create distance working on cleanly clearing my pistol, then dump 3 rounds into my target. 2 chest, 1 face, but at odd angles, as if recovering from being knocked off balance while fighting.

I called it my drunk’n dance shoot training...😎

T,
I’m not shocked that you were in the military and kicking doors with a Benelli. Always had a feeling you had a past that put you in some bad situation. Just a feeling, but apparently, it was a good guess.

😎

Fella I knew years ago was out squill hunting on our lease, sneaking around like he was still hunting deer. With a 12 bore loaded with low brass #8. Why? That was all he had, and bein' a preacher's son, and young, he was doin' the best he could with what he had. He was leaning against a tree in something like a shallow gulch and a doe came amblin' by. He said it was about 10' from him when he pulled the trigger. Middle of the neck just forward of the shoulder it went. Down she went. He said the hole of the off side was about 3-4" in diameter.

He didn't get any squill that day.

Yes sir, I know #9 @ 10 feet will cut a 2x4 in half.

IIRC the Tao of Ayoob was that he was focusing on the legal consequences of even a justified shooting at a time when everyone else was talking about stopping power and engaging in schlong-measuring contests over point vs the use of sights and what constituted a major or a minor caliber.

I dunno the cost of taking a course with that possibly untruthful toupeed Honorary Reserve Police Officer but IIRC if you took his course and were engaged in a legal self-defense shoot afterwards he would show up in court to defend ya as an expert witness, so the cost of his class maybe could be considered to be a retainer.

Drinking from a skull sounds pretty unsanitary.

So, how do you feel about the use of birdshot in home self-defense?

Ayoob preached that the legal consequences of a defensive shooting were near to the same level as letting some buttnugget slaughter you and your family. Only buffoons promoted point shooting and if Ayoob had stuck to teaching the fundamentals of shooting, which he did very well, he would have been more accepted by those that actually dealt w/ bad guys. I took a class taught by him in which firearms retention was a major topic. We showed up w/ our helmets, cups and mouth guards only to learn that he only demonstrated w/ compliant opponents in what was pretty much slow motion. He left early. The days of performing Katas and pretending that was fighting are long past. Which class did you take w/ him? Or any trainer?

Pick the ammo for your bird gun that you have personally tested and proved the best, emphasize head shots at 20 yards. Question the defense attorney whose card you carry in your wallet as to the value of ol' mas as an expert witness.



mike r

Squill? Perennial herbs?

I'll take a doe over some plants any day.

I don’t think he is even a lawyer. Or a cop.

Not sure I’d want him at my trial if he did offer?



Anyway, I for sure can hit things better with a shotgun than a pistol. My duck gun stays loaded with duck loads. Somebody breaks in, I’m headed for it. If I can’t get there, I can offer a face full of 22lr before I throw the LCR at ‘em and runnoft screaming like a banshee.

Praying it works out.

PCC or, in my case a pc with a brace! I've been shooting a gen 2 Sig MPX. Love the thing. Accurate as all get out to any distance you're likely to find in a house. Pleasant to shoot.

Don't get me wrong, I've been shooting every kinda Clay's I could find for two decades. But I can't get myself to buy an 18 inch barrel when even the 3-gunners recommend 26. I have two stories and six other people in the house. I need both accuracy, and fast follow ups. PCC or braced equivalent for me.
Pete

P.S., will probably pick up an M2 for local competition so my mind could change. It will be a 26.

40O,

How many rounds have you put through your MPX?

Do you shoot USPSA with it?

I've been considering one.

Squill as described by the once famous forum beast known as Big Mortie are commonly called squirrel by most folks. As I recall he used a .30-06 to hunt them.

2-3 thousand. Religiously cleaned it every 2-3 thousand rounds (cleaned it for the first time when the lock down order came out). Never ever had a any form or misfire or jam.

No.

Do it. Local range won't let me shoot a braced pistol in a PCC match, so I was about to pick up a MPX rifle before the end of the world happened and the prices went to MSRP or more. As soon as it ends, and the prices go down, I'll definitely pick up the rifle and join the local matches.

Awesome.

Thanks for the info.

I'll make you a deal, promise to buy one, enter local matches, and share your results with me, and I'll do the same.

DD, I use a 20 with low base dove load 6s for cat squirrels and blue quail. Quite adequate to 30 yds.

People with 12ga high base 7.5s wont beat me on blue quail. They may put more down with broken wings, but they wont recover most of those. They cant run through the weeds, grass and brush fast enough to catch them or get close enough for an effective ground shot most of the time.

I do switch from IC to IM though for squirrels.

I was sitting with a friend in the woods for squirrels with a bud from S Texas who was new to the game once when a big spike walked to withing about 25 yards. He shot it in the throat patch with high brass 6s from a 12 and it went down right there.

I also have a gen 2 MPX, I put a can on it and I run 147 grain gold dots out of it, incredibly accurate And target acquisition is scary fast.
I go through a [bleep] load a 9 mm with that gun, soft shooting and quiet, I put a Geissele trigger in mine,. Check out this link, Garand thumb Runs the snot out of it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzuxjwaJ0pM

I don't know that I can shoot them at our club.

I have to ask.

But I can't because The Corona has everything shut down. LOL.

79S . . . . . . .he's a funny mother fuqker. 😁

Ted, it sounds like you shot a lot of wads in college. Good times!! In high school we found you could cut the crimps off a case, put a new 209 in, then seat a wad upside down and it shot pretty good.

Bb

I don't know, Beav.

I am not qualified to comment on the latest and greatest, so I just listen to those that are not stuck in the past.

Over the years I've been reading, listening, and loosely keeping mental notes on what instructors recommend. These are guys that kicked doors down for a living. And now they teach the rest of us.

From what I have filed away in my brain, these guys seem to say that there isn't a semi-auto shotgun that has been proven reliable. Especially with some of the extended mag tubes.

And for pump shotguns, they see people struggle under stress. Stress in class.

They all seem to recommend an AR15, as being more reliable and easier for Joe-average or Jane-average to operate, in defense of their home.

None at all, which is why I focus on KISS; two rounds in center mass, seven yards or less, starting from a low ready.

I do recall an article prob’ly more’n thirty years in a Guns Annual by one Wilfrid Ward on British military revolvers. In it he mentioned that to pass their 1920’s era Revolver School, starting from a one hand low-ready position you had one second to put a round into a 10” x 15” target. I forget the range, I’m thinking thirty feet.

Eminently practical. Seems like the Brits were way ahead of us from the Nineteenth Century into the 20th when it came to combat handgun training.

It occurred to me that no one had mentioned a 9mm carbine then I had to look up what a Sig MPX was.

Seems like the right one could have all the ease of use of an AR without the muzzle blast.

Well duh....you think I was actually reading there or something?

I honestly don't know how I survived high school, between the beer and guns, and all the stuff I learned. God I miss those days

Yep, Big Mortie really knew how to blast 'em, didn't he? I miss his posts.

L.W.

We’re pretty much on the same page.

Thinking a lot of folks think scatterguns are simple, buy one and you’re a killer. It is a far different discipline than rifles and handguns. Chokes are a big deal, loads too. Biggest deal for the whole deal is fit. Someone with the smarts and experience is no pushover when so armed.

Long time back I spent 4-5 years shooting clays, and began loading to save a few bucks. 12-14K rds/yr made it worth doing. Loading 20 and 12 bore. One step outside the box for the 12 was 20 ga equivalent loads. 7/8 oz of #9 shot and a mild velocity thru the IC choke threw such a tight pattern it was bizarre. It was also one helluva good quail load. There be a lot of complexity there I’m not going to belabor, but the short version is if I’ve got a shotgun in hand I have few worries.

There be a time and place for all styles of arms. For me, in my home, it’s a scattergun. I won’t miss. Bellies are great targets.

A couple more gems.

If you are going to only choose one long gun for HD, and are equally familiar/competent with each, go with the M4.

My Auto-5 shown in this thread is simply one tool in the toolbox.

Hey Tks 🙂

I worked with a guy who got shot in the face with a .410 at close range and he is blind and not dead.

Neither do I. Minnesota law requires me to be a reluctant
participant.
I sure would be in trouble if a bad guys lawyer saw me bragging about wanting to shoot anyone.

Everyone needs a good shotgun. Just use as needed, right.

LOL, Nice!

Well If I have to chose between a shotgun or my 1911 I pick the 1911. Mostly because I shoot it so well and I have one near me at just about all times. I also keep a shotgun or two around the house loaded generally with #4 shot, 1oz in the 20 gauge and 1 1/4oz in the 12. I have dogs both inside an out so nothing will surprise me and I will have plenty of time to decide what weapon and what for, if it is a coyote, raccoon or skunk the shotgun is it. If it is an intruder my main issue will be separating my dog safely from said intruder which is easier done with a handgun in one hand. In reality the dogs are my first line of defense and I am there to support them.

BamBam,
What optic are you running? I have the 10" MPX with a Aimpoint Pro on top. Thinking of trying a C-More. We'll 'C.'

I've been shooting the Federal 147 HST for awhile. Will be trying some federal 115 +P+ when things settle down (have them, just don't want to hang with the people at ranges right now).
Pete

I would try those 2" or 2&1/4" Italian buckshot shells. Those six pellet SG loads really reduce bandolier or belt weight. Each shell is substantially lighter than 2&3/4" one.

In so many home invasion incidents we hear about, a barking dog might have made all the difference. (I myself just added two little yappers )

I will add that in my area, the sort of guys you might expect to break into your house seem to have an inordinate fear of dogs, most any dog, that is barking and acting aggressive.

OTOH I got no use for a dog that bites.

I like the Ithaca Model 37 LAPD
18 inch barrel with cylinder bore choke.
If you depend on a shotgun you really need to pattern it at different ranges and 00 buck and #4
Buck and see what you like.
I was watching a Facebook video recently
A young black Sheriff Deputy pulled over a guy that had a 20 gauge laying on the front seat of the vehicle. He pointed it at the deputy and fired.
The deputy was knocked backwards and fired 2 magazines into the bad guy who absorbed 8 bullets.
The deputy had pellets in his shoulder, both were hospitalized. Both survived.

Good morning Pete, I’m running a Romeo four, I got it for a good price so I threw it on, I like it it’s been reliable going to keep it on for now. I’m running 6.5 inch barrel with a silencer co-can, Waiting on my SB tactical brace. I’ve run HST through through it Gold Dot,HST Same accuracy. Never ran 115 through it ran 124s which I really like :-) very accurate carbine/pistol. I just got a Sig rattler, Have to pick it up one night during this week after work. Got it with another Romeo on it again, good price :-) looking forward to running that should be a blast, pun intended.

If someone break into your home grab the AR start shooting and yell “get some” the whole time

Need the Tom Cruise movie clip from Taps, here.

😎

I present to you, the Aguila 1 3/4" mini-shell:

https://www.targetsportsusa.com/aguila-minishell-12-gauge-ammo-1-34-78-oz-slug-1c128974-p-76585.aspx

Just did the math and in my 870 with my spring snow goose mag can hold... like.... (counting on fingers)........15 or something, LMAO

Roger that.

J

Duck, why go mini when a maxi will hold back the flow better...

If I’m touching off 15 mini shotgun rounds in my home, I’m either blind or my house is bigger than a football field.

5 gauge shells should clear my home of intruders feet first.

I’d also be concerned about failures with shorter shells.

No experience with them, so my worry may be unfounded.

😎

Naaawww, I just think they're cute is all - never tried 'em. I don't go mini OR Maxi. But there IS string hanging out the end of my shotgun barrel.

If you don't plan on defending against or killing an intruder why even bother carrying a gun? You typed that in an earlier post BTW.

Don’t bother with the mini shells. Tried Aguila and Federal both in my 870P, no go for reliability. Not even close. Only good for singles and double barrels. And why use them in those?

Always wondered what those mini shells brought to the table.

They double the capacity of your pump gun (that typically requires an adapter) and still kill stuff at shorter "indoor" ranges.

And they remove all trace of recoil in doing so.

They double the capacity of your pump gun (that typically requires an adapter) and still kill stuff at shorter "indoor" ranges.

And they remove all trace of recoil in doing so.[/quote]


If I recall correctly they were actually made with the Mossberg 500 in mind and from what I read they work on that platform flawlessly. I am an 870 guy, so have no first hand experience.

NO jamming issues?

Just watched a trailer for Blood Quantum, a zombie flick with the fast moving variety of undead. I see zombies as a good metaphor for drugged out of their mind criminals. Erratic, fast, and stories about their not reacting to bullets they way a civilized person would.

If head shots on fast moving targets was the problem, shotgun is the solution.

Do you speak this way in real life?

Not if your gun is set up for them.

.

Good to know, Thanks

Well the US Mil has 2 continuous decades of fighting in houses and the only thing they still use a shotgun for is breaching the door.

Shotguns are OK but the AR rules the real CQB world.

Good evening BamBam,
Have not seen a good price on an MPX sense I made the mistake of not buying the MPX Noctis when Cabela's had them on sale. They were selling them for around $1,250. I've tracked a few auctions on the MPX competition, but they keep going for MSRP.

Most of what I've shot through the MPX has been the cheap full metal jacket federal. Never a problem.

Interested in shooting in a couple of the PCC matches at the club. They do not allow pistols with braces, so I'll need to buy an actual PCC if I want to play their game.

The other option is an M2 for the tactical shotgun matches. With summer arriving I don't see myself spending much time at the outdoor range. I think it hit 102 today.

Bottom line, my firearms purchases tend to track the shooting sports I'm interested in.

Well stated. Still won't move the 590 from by the bed. BUT I can't recall grabbing it in many years. Maybe for pigs was the last time.

That's not exactly a fair comparison.

1) The shotgun is more of a specialty weapon in combat. Most individuals don't carry BOTH 5.56 and a shotgun regularly
2) Troops carry far more 5.56 ammo for their standard issue weapons, than shotgun ammo, so it stands to reason they'd quickly switch back to that which they are well stocked for
3) A house breech may lead them out a back door within minutes or seconds, where the 5.56 immediately makes more sense to have in hand

Let's turn the tables the other way. For those who have served, if you had the unfortunate situation where you breached a door to find an armed enemy, would you rather see a 5.56 or a 12 gauge in the enemies hand across the room from you?

Last night I watched a movie called Standoff.
The hero had a 20 gauge single shot and only 1 shell.

The shotty is simply not used at all in combat anymore except for blowing hinges and locks on the breach.

The 5.56 is just as deadly per shot and packs 30 shots before a simple reload of 30 more.

Bonus is much less recoil.

Youtube is full of hog hunting vids from Helis showing just how not effective a shotgun is at actually hitting and killing in a real environment.

Of course it's entirely possible to defend the homestead with 00 buckshot but real world experience has shown other choices (The 5.56mm AR) to be better.

Take your pick but I will pick the world proven best choice.

YMMV.

No, I agreed that I didn’t WANT to kill anyone. The way my house is laid out if someone burst in the front door we’re gonna see each other right off, me laying on the floor.

All I would have time to do is react. Which is why the j-frame is kept close at hand.

Three barking dogs between us might buy me more time, before they burst in and after, or better, cause em to call the whole thing off.

I just realized, I gotta practice shooting laying down.

The breecher is not the first one in. So mute question.. the first guy in will have an M4..

I’ve ran the Aguila mini slugs through my Winchester 1300 with no mods. Nary a bobble.

I see so many posts saying at close range the shotgun hasn't opened up enough to be any different than a handgun. The big difference is people hit with a handgun round tend to keep coming or runaway. That's not gonna happen when they take a full load of shotgun pattern that hasn't opened up.......

When military busts into a place, they're expecting multiple opponents, possibly wearing body armor. Somewhat different than defense in your home. Handgun, AR or shotgun for home defense, I think all are going to fit different situations, like where do you live, home layout, your location in the home, time of day, number of possible opponents, number of occupants of the home and their location, your physical condition, etc. No way to really say which is "better". For my particular situation I'd probably be best served with a shotgun.

While those who have gone in harm’s way, busting in doors in the service to our country and/or our communities deserve our thanks and respect, that’s a whole ‘nother kettle of fish. It’s hard for me to imagine someone breaking into my house looking for a gunfight



In the last thirty years, two mom and pop convenience store owners in this city have been murdered some time after the fact by gang members in the same gang as the armed robber those storekeepers shot and killed in two unrelated incidents.

Thirty plus years back a noted pistol match competitor here had to pull up and move his gun shop after masterfully over coming an armed invasion by two shotgun-armed thugs, killing one, wounding another, and shooting up the getaway vehicle.

Twenty-five years back a guy down the street had to sell his house and move after shooting and killing a punk teenage burglar. I would have to do all of that AND quit my present job.

In my circumstance, scaring off a home invader would be the second best outcome of a bad situation. The best one would be they heard them dogs barking before they bust in, and decided against it.

Be sure they are within earshot when you ‘rack the slide’.

Bird, you have been posting on my thread for days...And, now after like 3rd day, you decide to quote my OP...

Do you just get lost in the moment of the posts without looking what the source of the tread may be about?

Just curious...I know you’re an educator, Special Ed?

😎

Correct, in a general sense. For us it would depend on the situation, how tight the quarters were in previous houses, etc. Just like in America, city houses were generally smaller and tighter, where farm country houses tended to be a bit bigger and more open, and that would sometimes influence what weapon was the first one in. Often times though, whomever is there and ready is the first one in after the doorway is breached, regardless of what he's carrying. A shotgun isn't always used by the breecher but there's usually one in the hands of someone on the patrol. Honestly though, with the exception of Fallujah, we'd breach maybe 1 in 50 houses that we entered. The occupants were almost always willing to let us in after the interpreter talked to them.


As far as personal self defense, like has been stated many times in this thread it's what you're comfortable with, as well as the specifics of your home that really should be the determining factor as to which weapon is "better".
For me, there's no question. Shotgun all the way.