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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Oh please don't get me wrong, it turns my stomach for innocents to be murdered, and I believe in a quick and lethal justice if someone hurts or murders innocents.
And I do believe in racial differences, maybe some of them are genetic, some of them are learned, some of them are regional. And I stereotype all day long, depending on someone's skin color, how they're dressed, and how they're behaving. I'd be considered a racist by some, and accused of wearing rose colored glasses by others.
But I just cannot agree with some of the assessments of this incident. Not with what I have read on the subject, or what I saw in the short video.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Well said. Definitely a huge double standard on this forum when it comes to blacks and whites.
yea well...I'm pretty good with that
have you paid your dues, can you moan the blues, can you bend them guitar strings
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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They didn't have guns on them to shoot him to prevent escape. They were bearing arms in case needed to defend themselves from violence, such as the suspect attacking them in such a way as to be life threatening, as he actually did.
The racism is strong in this one, almost as strong as the anti-semitism. If Dumb and Dumber needed to "defend themselves from violence," why did they go where the black guy was jogging in the first place? Hmmmm? They went to him because they wanted to hold him for the police, as they had reason to suspect he was a serial burglar in their neighborhood. But they were not police, and under georgia law, it appears they had no authority to do so: https://law.justia.com/codes/georgia/2010/title-17/chapter-4/article-4/17-4-60/A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is committed in his presence or within his immediate knowledge. If the offense is a felony and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion. True. That's what places it in the arena of an imperfect defense of self-defense rather than either a perfect claim of self-defense or murder. In other words, they didn't come to the circumstance of requiring self-defensive action with clean hands. They also, however, didn't maliciously cause anyone's death. The act causing death was deemed by the shooter to be reasonably necessary to preserve his life which was under imminent threat from the jogger attempting to wrest a loaded weapon from his grasp.
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Joined: Oct 2005
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
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It's got to do with the difference between how the media covers blacks killing whites as opposed to whites killing blacks.
You hear about it on a national level for days every time whites kill blacks. (a very rare occurrence)
You never hear about it on a national level when blacks kill whites. (a far from rare occurrence)
The above post details the most glaring double standard I see associated with such matters.
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Joined: Dec 2013
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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For those who would completely exonerate the shooter. If the black jogger had been armed with a concealed handgun and pulled it out and shot the white man would there have been any reason to charge him with anything? I didn't think so.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I've read this entire thread and decided I just don't give a fugg about any of it. I'll keep reading though.
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Joined: Jun 2002
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
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It's got to do with the difference between how the media covers blacks killing whites as opposed to whites killing blacks.
You hear about it on a national level for days every time whites kill blacks. (a very rare occurrence)
You never hear about it on a national level when blacks kill whites. (a far from rare occurrence)
The above post details the most glaring double standard I see associated with such matters. Absolutely.
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Joined: Nov 2014
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I took a few days to think over this incident, and read a few pages of comments prior to watching the video. Was very surprised at what the video actually showed. Must've been a different video than some of you watched.
I have no doubts that had the people involved all been white, to you hypocritical types it would've been: a few rednecks being stupid. Had they been all black, it would've been: great, three thugs off the street. Had it been blacks chasing down a white: outrage, and solidification and justification for your view of blacks.
I am not okay with people cruising around in a pickups performing citizens arrests, and then "defending themselves" when the cornered person resorts to violence; regardless of color. Would've been terrified to find myself in that man's situation. Shame on some of you guys. I've lost some faith today, but should I ever find myself facing a jury of you folks, I'll be glad I'm white! Well said. Definitely a huge double standard on this forum when it comes to blacks and whites. There’s a huge double standard when it comes to blacks and whites in this country and in the media. And it’s not the blacks that are being discriminated against.
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Joined: May 2004
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Well I happen to disagree with that double standard as well. So if what the fake news does is the standard that you hold yourself to, then congratulations?
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Joined: Feb 2009
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Not enough evidence for me to make a determination yet.
But it seems that all of the so called news folks are making this out to be an everyday thing.
Every time something like this happens there are folks that cry for justice.
Meaning that if black folks get killed they want the killer to get dead as well no matter what caused it or events leading up to it.
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Campfire Tracker
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Personally I feel the white guys murdered the black guy because they had no business trying to stop him in the first place. But there's also not much question that if the black guy would of kept running and not assaulted the guy with the shotgun he'd still be alive. The dad in the back of the truck didn't shoot, before, during or after the black guy attacked his son definitely shows some restraint and that they weren't out to kill the guy.
Life is good live it while you can.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I think the Trayvon Martin case was cut and dry, the media tried to spin it, and a just verdict was rendered.They tried the same BS with the Michael Brown case.This one looks to be quite different. Actually, it looks EXACTLY the same as Martin. White/Hispanic guy stops suspected criminal, suspect atacks him, gets shot. Is now good.What is the difference you see? The difference I see is that Trayvon Martin sneaked up on George Zimmerman who had not blocked his path or done any more than try to maintain observation of Martin. These two apparently aggressively cut off the jogger in an attempt to detain him. And then brandished a firearm to control the "suspect". George only pulled a concealed handgun at the last second after a stronger man was in the process of beating him senseless. George did not attempt to detain Mr. Martin and was in fact attacked by Martin who was miffed at being followed. That is a lot of difference. That said, I believe there was no original intent to kill the jogger but unless there is more to this than is now reported the 2 white men accosting him did so illegally. At least the driver/shooter did. I agree, George had a much more convincing case than these guys. And, look how he was prosecuted by the press and even the White House. He eventually had his day in court but at great cost in reputation and treasury. These guys won’t be so fortunate, IMO. DF
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Campfire Tracker
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Kidnapping? Really? Go back and get your GED, Jethro. If it’s lawful to stand there with a shotgun, and someone tries to grab it.....A BIG IF......justified shooting. Only two chumps can testify to that, unfortunately. All the geniuses claim the video shows everything, then want to say you can’t see if the deceased got violent and turned toward the shooter, grabbing the gun. Can’t have it both ways. The cheerleader in the pickup bed is likely off.....murder charge is all political, waiting for the election season (or later) to render verdicts. Any chance the deceased recognized the ex-law-enforcement officer he had past dealings with? Prior convictions, charges, or even just investigations into the deceased are not relevant.... he’s the victim, not the charged. It's relevant. In a lethal force self-defense claim before the court, the dead man's criminal record (if it involves violence, even tangentially) is relevant because it lends credence to the claim that his behavior during the struggle leading to his death was such as to place an ordinary person in fear of imminent, and potentially deadly, violence. The logic goes: if he engaged in criminal violence before, that shows a pattern that supports the claim that he was behaving similarly on the day in question. I doubt his previous record would be admissible in this case. Since this is a felony murder case, the question becomes, where the rednecks committing a felony, such as kidnapping, when they stopped this person at gunpoint.
"Those that think they know everything are annoying those of us that have Google." - Dr. D. Edward Wilkinson
Note to self: Never ask an old Fogey how he is doing today.
Revised note to self: Keep it short when someone asks how I am doing.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Seeing as how the rednecks initiated the confrontation they may have a problem w/ self defense. If someone points a shotgun at me I may choose to defend myself. I hope the shooter hires TRH as an expert witness, he is obviously well qualified and deeply experienced.
If you decide to illegally detain/kidnap someone just call it a citizen's arrest and you will be OK.
miike r
Don't wish it were easier
Wish you were better
Stab them in the taint, you can't put a tourniquet on that.
Craig Douglas ECQC
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Campfire Outfitter
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One thing is for sure. This is going to take a while to sort out in court, the media, and the 24 HCF. I bet Wayne LaPierre is glad we're onto another subject and I am glad everybody here got off the CV-19 panic for a while. It is sad if an innocent person was killed and two doofusses have their life ruined for being stupid. The right to keep and bear arms has received another blackeye in the eyes of those who basically are not pro gun or anti gun. The right to keep and bear arms is like a lot of other rights, as in it comes with responsibility.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,080 Likes: 4
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,080 Likes: 4 |
Kidnapping? Really? Go back and get your GED, Jethro. If it’s lawful to stand there with a shotgun, and someone tries to grab it.....A BIG IF......justified shooting. Only two chumps can testify to that, unfortunately. All the geniuses claim the video shows everything, then want to say you can’t see if the deceased got violent and turned toward the shooter, grabbing the gun. Can’t have it both ways. The cheerleader in the pickup bed is likely off.....murder charge is all political, waiting for the election season (or later) to render verdicts. Any chance the deceased recognized the ex-law-enforcement officer he had past dealings with? Prior convictions, charges, or even just investigations into the deceased are not relevant.... he’s the victim, not the charged. It's relevant. In a lethal force self-defense claim before the court, the dead man's criminal record (if it involves violence, even tangentially) is relevant because it lends credence to the claim that his behavior during the struggle leading to his death was such as to place an ordinary person in fear of imminent, and potentially deadly, violence. The logic goes: if he engaged in criminal violence before, that shows a pattern that supports the claim that he was behaving similarly on the day in question. I doubt his previous record would be admissible in this case. Since this is a felony murder case, the question becomes, where the rednecks committing a felony, such as kidnapping, when they stopped this person at gunpoint. Regardless of your hypothesis that the EX-cop may have recognized the dead person, he's no longer a cop, has no authority in the state of Georgia to arrest someone for a crime he did not personally witness, and cannot claim self defense for an incident he provoked. Here a bit on the Georgia kidnapping statute: Under OCGA § 16-5-40 (a), “[a] person commits the offense of kidnapping when he abducts or steals away any person without lawful authority or warrant and holds such person against his will.” Therefore, the elements of kidnapping are (1) an illegal holding, (2) an overmastering of the victim’s will, and (3) an asportation of the victim.[i] A person convicted of the offense of kidnapping shall be punished by: Imprisonment for not less than ten nor more than 20 years if the kidnapping involved a victim who was 14 years of age or older; Imprisonment for life or by a split sentence that is a term of imprisonment for not less than 25 years and not exceeding life imprisonment, followed by probation for life, if the kidnapping involved a victim who is less than 14 years of age; Life imprisonment or death if the kidnapping was for ransom; or Life imprisonment or death if the person kidnapped received bodily injury.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 05/09/20.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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And why is this relevant?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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The cheerleader in the pickup bed is likely off.....murder charge is all political, waiting for the election season (or later) to render verdicts. Not so sure about that. How about when the driver of the get away car gets charged with bank robbery and murder when he just sat in the car while his buddy went and robbed the bank and killed the security guard? The father was there, he was armed and I bet it was his idea to chase after they guy, he's involved. I think they are both most likely going to jail for a long time.
Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2 |
And why is this relevant? Joggers getting murdered seems to be big with the media these days. I'm betting the situation outlined in the posted link will be covered in depth on the national news over the next few days. Maybe it'll even become a topic of discussion here.
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