Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Little Help Here (diagnose this group?)

MM,

I did a couple of 10 shot groups, but they were at 50 yards. They also showed basically 2 groups, one pretty centered and one low and right.

Renegade may be right on about my position and technique.

What ammo on the box target?

Sent my kid to walmart for a fish scale.

Weighed it just now on an electronic berkley. Weighed it 5 times to make sure it was consistent. zeroed the scale each time.

2@ 6-6
2@ 6-5
1@ 6-4

Won't make Bristoe's weight class

John,

I'm not sure what you're using for magazines, but for range shooting, 10 rounders are nice. You don't need a two foot stack of sand bags, or if you have a good rest, they fit much nicer.

That was some PMC X-TAC 62gr LAP. Some of the better M855 type ammo I've had.

Great suggestions here. I'd also suggest he changes his target to a black bull and use a 6 o'clock hold... John, for a trigger, look at getting a RRA varmint 2 stage match. They go on sale quite reguarily for around $80.00... They are actually $82.00 right now over at RTBA.. I agree with what MontanaMarine just said too, use a good bi-pod and rear bag. I find that to be extremely solid off the bench. I go old school with the Harris 6-9 swivel and it hasn't let me down yet... 10 round mags is also a plus.. Even a better grip like the K2+ helps for shooting better groups. Something a lot of us have talked about before in the black rifle challenge here.. The more you shoot, the more proficient you'll become. Hopefully.. I'm still learning as well, but what I've found is the more comfortable you can make your rifle, the better you are going to shoot it..

That is a good start. I don't have any of My AR's free floated and for their mission in life i don't need them free floated. Minute of bad guy or coyote is good enough for that.

kwg

With those standards, maybe that's all the better the op should expect. He's asking why his groups suck. A non freefloated handguard could be one of the issues.. What I'm seeing here is he doesn't know what barrel manufacture he's using, his trigger sucks, using crap ammo, not using a freefloated handguard, type of rest used is not specified and he's wondering why his groups suck..

My light is a Streamlight TLR1 HL on this mount.
https://arisakadefense.com/products/mossie-1913-fsb-mount

You forgot to mention the fish scale, which explains plenty.

I don't know. I had an A2HB that didn't need any tricks to shoot accurately and it was nothing special. Just a garden variety A2HB.

Believe me I do appreciate all commentary and advice. Please don't feel slighted if I don't jump into all sorts of deviations on the AR platform such as free floating a barrel. Especially a barrel that has, by necessity, a gas block and tube attached.
And while it may be that the forearm is the issue, I expect that technique played a larger part.
I've also had some advice given on better loads for the rifle, and have acted on that issue.

Near the top of the thread I detailed exactly what I used for a rest, and it is shown in the pics provided. It was not a well thought out item but a week ago I was a guy who had a lower stashed away and no idea if I'd ever use it. I now have an upper which appears to be functional, a small stash of ammo that was safed away with the lower, half a can of ammo that I ordered the day I sent for the lower, and another 1200 rounds I ordered tonight.

In point of fact I cannot name the barrel manufacturer. I bought the complete upper as a unit from a distributor. Maybe they know where the barrel came from. I think it's as likely that they use a number of sources who manufacture to a set of specs.
Not a lot of guarantees in life worth noting, and there's the possibility that this barrel just won't shoot. With what little time I have into it there are more questions than answers. Fortunately, I have the time and the will to pursue answers. Because of my background and training, I'm going to reject calls for specialized and upgraded equipment, at least initially.
If I eventually find that the barrel won't shoot, I'll replace it. But I'm still gonna be looking for a traditional style set-up. It's what I want if I'm gonna use this as I intend.

If I was to try and compete for group size I'd approach things differently

The title of your thread may be misleading then. As I think a lot of us were under the impression you wanted us to "diagnose this group" you posted. Is there a reason you don't want to throw a "proven" scope on it and re-shoot the target? You also need a target you can see better as well. A black bull on white paper tends to give a much better view. Use a 6 o-'clock hold on that bull too, with irons. Don't try to hold in the middle, as you will get a bigger "group"/pattern...

Too much wrong to put a finger on one thing.

The target is horrible too. Follow BSA's advice - at least spray paint a 6moa black dot on some paper.

I corrected one wrong with a phone call. J&T informs me that my barrel was made by ER Shaw. I'm a bit hazy on knowing how that knowledge helps, but I do know that all my experience with Shaw barrels to date has been good. This includes my best shooting 22-250 ever. and my old 700 winmag which is as reliably accurate as any rifle I've ever owned.

And I believe that I did get some good diagnosis and some great advice in this thread. It was all common sense, and I pretty much knew where I was headed when I asked for the diagnosis. But on days when you can't get to the range it can be enlightening to let others see and critique your targets.

Wish now I'd pulled each target as shot so I could post them here too. But I stapled over and rocked on as others were on the range and waiting.

Shaw, on average, makes good barrels.

Companies like Anderson and Bear Creek make, on average, crap barrels. If they'd said Anderson or Bear Creek, it would of been time to pull off the barrel and sell it for scrap.

The mil standard for the M-16 & M193 ammo is 4"...................just sayin', so adjust your thinkin' accordingly.

MM

I'm about ready to go and get a colt sporter match rifle and throw some steel case military chidt in it and see how she shoots, just for chits and giggles...

I know guys shooting match AR using that Remington umc 55gr stuff shooting pretty good. But the m193 isn’t nothing to write home about.. stuff was notorious for being chitty..

Molon did a good testing of various M193 ammo clones.
https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/-/16-511804/?

That's a good read. I'm surprised molon didn't use a 20 inch hbar. Military standard state that they use a 20 inch hbar and get two in groups at a hundred yards with the rifle in a machine rest. I'll be curious to see how my new Colt shoots tomorrow