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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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MM,
I did a couple of 10 shot groups, but they were at 50 yards. They also showed basically 2 groups, one pretty centered and one low and right.
Renegade may be right on about my position and technique.
What ammo on the box target?
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Sent my kid to walmart for a fish scale.
Weighed it just now on an electronic berkley. Weighed it 5 times to make sure it was consistent. zeroed the scale each time.
2@ 6-6 2@ 6-5 1@ 6-4
Won't make Bristoe's weight class
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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John,
I'm not sure what you're using for magazines, but for range shooting, 10 rounders are nice. You don't need a two foot stack of sand bags, or if you have a good rest, they fit much nicer.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Sep 2001
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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MM,
I did a couple of 10 shot groups, but they were at 50 yards. They also showed basically 2 groups, one pretty centered and one low and right.
Renegade may be right on about my position and technique.
What ammo on the box target? That was some PMC X-TAC 62gr LAP. Some of the better M855 type ammo I've had.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
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Great suggestions here. I'd also suggest he changes his target to a black bull and use a 6 o'clock hold... John, for a trigger, look at getting a RRA varmint 2 stage match. They go on sale quite reguarily for around $80.00... They are actually $82.00 right now over at RTBA.. I agree with what MontanaMarine just said too, use a good bi-pod and rear bag. I find that to be extremely solid off the bench. I go old school with the Harris 6-9 swivel and it hasn't let me down yet... 10 round mags is also a plus.. Even a better grip like the K2+ helps for shooting better groups. Something a lot of us have talked about before in the black rifle challenge here.. The more you shoot, the more proficient you'll become. Hopefully.. I'm still learning as well, but what I've found is the more comfortable you can make your rifle, the better you are going to shoot it..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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And I just ordered a mil-spec carry handle from PSA. Supposedly in stock... That is a good start. I don't have any of My AR's free floated and for their mission in life i don't need them free floated. Minute of bad guy or coyote is good enough for that. kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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And I just ordered a mil-spec carry handle from PSA. Supposedly in stock... That is a good start. I don't have any of My AR's free floated and for their mission in life i don't need them free floated. Minute of bad guy or coyote is good enough for that. kwg With those standards, maybe that's all the better the op should expect. He's asking why his groups suck. A non freefloated handguard could be one of the issues.. What I'm seeing here is he doesn't know what barrel manufacture he's using, his trigger sucks, using crap ammo, not using a freefloated handguard, type of rest used is not specified and he's wondering why his groups suck..
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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With those standards, maybe that's all the better the op should expect. He's asking why his groups suck. A non freefloated handguard could be one of the issues.. What I'm seeing here is he doesn't know what barrel manufacture he's using, his trigger sucks, using crap ammo, not using a freefloated handguard, type of rest used is not specified and he's wondering why his groups suck..
You forgot to mention the fish scale, which explains plenty.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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I'm sure the technique could use improvement. The box with the case across it in the second pic was my rest. Front hand on that with the forearm laid in and elbows on the table...
Lots of people think that shootin' an AR is just like shootin' a bolt gun & that just 'cause they can knock the eye outta a fly at 500 yards with the bolt gun, that they can also do it with the AR....................just seriously ain't so. Takes some learnin' to get to be real good with an AR....................just sayin. Besides havin' good ammo................ Besides havin' a good barrel............... Besides havin' a free float handguard that is reasonably stiff with a decent barrel nut attachment................ Besides havin' a good trigger Besides, besides, besides ad nausem........................... MM I don't know. I had an A2HB that didn't need any tricks to shoot accurately and it was nothing special. Just a garden variety A2HB.
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Joined: May 2002
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
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And I just ordered a mil-spec carry handle from PSA. Supposedly in stock... That is a good start. I don't have any of My AR's free floated and for their mission in life i don't need them free floated. Minute of bad guy or coyote is good enough for that. kwg With those standards, maybe that's all the better the op should expect. He's asking why his groups suck. A non freefloated handguard could be one of the issues.. What I'm seeing here is he doesn't know what barrel manufacture he's using, his trigger sucks, using crap ammo, not using a freefloated handguard, type of rest used is not specified and he's wondering why his groups suck.. Believe me I do appreciate all commentary and advice. Please don't feel slighted if I don't jump into all sorts of deviations on the AR platform such as free floating a barrel. Especially a barrel that has, by necessity, a gas block and tube attached. And while it may be that the forearm is the issue, I expect that technique played a larger part. I've also had some advice given on better loads for the rifle, and have acted on that issue. Near the top of the thread I detailed exactly what I used for a rest, and it is shown in the pics provided. It was not a well thought out item but a week ago I was a guy who had a lower stashed away and no idea if I'd ever use it. I now have an upper which appears to be functional, a small stash of ammo that was safed away with the lower, half a can of ammo that I ordered the day I sent for the lower, and another 1200 rounds I ordered tonight. In point of fact I cannot name the barrel manufacturer. I bought the complete upper as a unit from a distributor. Maybe they know where the barrel came from. I think it's as likely that they use a number of sources who manufacture to a set of specs. Not a lot of guarantees in life worth noting, and there's the possibility that this barrel just won't shoot. With what little time I have into it there are more questions than answers. Fortunately, I have the time and the will to pursue answers. Because of my background and training, I'm going to reject calls for specialized and upgraded equipment, at least initially. If I eventually find that the barrel won't shoot, I'll replace it. But I'm still gonna be looking for a traditional style set-up. It's what I want if I'm gonna use this as I intend. If I was to try and compete for group size I'd approach things differently
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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Joined: Aug 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2010
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And I just ordered a mil-spec carry handle from PSA. Supposedly in stock... That is a good start. I don't have any of My AR's free floated and for their mission in life i don't need them free floated. Minute of bad guy or coyote is good enough for that. kwg With those standards, maybe that's all the better the op should expect. He's asking why his groups suck. A non freefloated handguard could be one of the issues.. What I'm seeing here is he doesn't know what barrel manufacture he's using, his trigger sucks, using crap ammo, not using a freefloated handguard, type of rest used is not specified and he's wondering why his groups suck.. Believe me I do appreciate all commentary and advice. Please don't feel slighted if I don't jump into all sorts of deviations on the AR platform such as free floating a barrel. Especially a barrel that has, by necessity, a gas block and tube attached. And while it may be that the forearm is the issue, I expect that technique played a larger part. I've also had some advice given on better loads for the rifle, and have acted on that issue. Near the top of the thread I detailed exactly what I used for a rest, and it is shown in the pics provided. It was not a well thought out item but a week ago I was a guy who had a lower stashed away and no idea if I'd ever use it. I now have an upper which appears to be functional, a small stash of ammo that was safed away with the lower, half a can of ammo that I ordered the day I sent for the lower, and another 1200 rounds I ordered tonight. In point of fact I cannot name the barrel manufacturer. I bought the complete upper as a unit from a distributor. Maybe they know where the barrel came from. I think it's as likely that they use a number of sources who manufacture to a set of specs. Not a lot of guarantees in life worth noting, and there's the possibility that this barrel just won't shoot. With what little time I have into it there are more questions than answers. Fortunately, I have the time and the will to pursue answers. Because of my background and training, I'm going to reject calls for specialized and upgraded equipment, at least initially. If I eventually find that the barrel won't shoot, I'll replace it. But I'm still gonna be looking for a traditional style set-up. It's what I want if I'm gonna use this as I intend. If I was to try and compete for group size I'd approach things differently The title of your thread may be misleading then. As I think a lot of us were under the impression you wanted us to "diagnose this group" you posted. Is there a reason you don't want to throw a "proven" scope on it and re-shoot the target? You also need a target you can see better as well. A black bull on white paper tends to give a much better view. Use a 6 o-'clock hold on that bull too, with irons. Don't try to hold in the middle, as you will get a bigger "group"/pattern...
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Too much wrong to put a finger on one thing.
The target is horrible too. Follow BSA's advice - at least spray paint a 6moa black dot on some paper.
Politics is War by Other Means
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I corrected one wrong with a phone call. J&T informs me that my barrel was made by ER Shaw. I'm a bit hazy on knowing how that knowledge helps, but I do know that all my experience with Shaw barrels to date has been good. This includes my best shooting 22-250 ever. and my old 700 winmag which is as reliably accurate as any rifle I've ever owned.
And I believe that I did get some good diagnosis and some great advice in this thread. It was all common sense, and I pretty much knew where I was headed when I asked for the diagnosis. But on days when you can't get to the range it can be enlightening to let others see and critique your targets.
Wish now I'd pulled each target as shot so I could post them here too. But I stapled over and rocked on as others were on the range and waiting.
"Chances Will Be Taken"
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Shaw, on average, makes good barrels.
Companies like Anderson and Bear Creek make, on average, crap barrels. If they'd said Anderson or Bear Creek, it would of been time to pull off the barrel and sell it for scrap.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 06/08/20.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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The mil standard for the M-16 & M193 ammo is 4"...................just sayin', so adjust your thinkin' accordingly.
MM
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The mil standard for the M-16 & M193 ammo is 4"...................just sayin', so adjust your thinkin' accordingly.
MM I'm about ready to go and get a colt sporter match rifle and throw some steel case military chidt in it and see how she shoots, just for chits and giggles...
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 23,500
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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The mil standard for the M-16 & M193 ammo is 4"...................just sayin', so adjust your thinkin' accordingly.
MM I'm about ready to go and get a colt sporter match rifle and throw some steel case military chidt in it and see how she shoots, just for chits and giggles... I know guys shooting match AR using that Remington umc 55gr stuff shooting pretty good. But the m193 isn’t nothing to write home about.. stuff was notorious for being chitty..
Then STFU. The rest of your statement is superflous bullshit with no real bearing on this discussion other than to massage your own ego. Suckin' on my titties like you wanted me.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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That's a good read. I'm surprised molon didn't use a 20 inch hbar. Military standard state that they use a 20 inch hbar and get two in groups at a hundred yards with the rifle in a machine rest. I'll be curious to see how my new Colt shoots tomorrow
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style. You want to see an animal drop right now? Shoot him in the ear hole. BSA MAGA
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