Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire So, which of the 6 theories of Evolution do you unbelievers believe in?

I dont think I ever knew anyone who even thought they knew everything GOD told them about directly and indirectly in the Bible.

So did the big bang theory. Some even think the idea they came from pond scum is a solid idea.

There was a guy here, curdog4570, and he used to say that when he didn’t understand something about God...something that his salvation didn’t depend upon but was still intriguing to him...that he was reminded of Jesus saying "…what is that to you? ...follow Me."

Made since to me then. Still does.

I like it!

I enjoyed Gene. I hope he's doing well.

I've posted it before. It's typically dismissed or ignored. Yet it is undeniable;



Quote:
''One thing that many people do not know about the New Testament is that it actually contains several direct quotes from certain ancient Greek writers. In fact, there are a total of at least five quotes from four different Greek writers found throughout the pages of the New Testament. The following is a list of all of all the known quotations.''

The verses are given in full with the quotations written in bold:


#1 and #2. Acts 17:27-28: “That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.“

This verse actually contains two quotations. The first quotation comes from The Kretika by the Greek poet and mystic Epimenides of Knossos. The second quotation comes from line five of the didactic poem Phainomena by the Stoic philosopher Aratos of Soloi.

#3. Acts 26:14: “And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.”

This unusual phrase is a direct quote from line 1624 of the Greek tragedy Agamemnon by Aischylos.

#4. 1 Corinthians 15:33: “Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.”

This saying is directly quoted from the comedy Thais by the Athenian comic playwright Menandros. Menandros, however, seems to have actually gotten the quote from the tragedy Aiolos by Euripides.
The apostle Paul seems to have enjoyed, or at least had extensive knowledge of, classical drama, judging by the fact that he quotes from at least two different classical playwrights.


#5. Titus 1:12: “One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.”

This quote comes from the Kretan poet Epimenides of Knossos. This quote, like the one found in Acts 17:28, comes from The Kretika. In fact, it seems to come from the exact same passage. Epimenides is not mentioned by name in either of the places where he is quoted and The Kretika has, sadly, not survived. The only reason we know that these passages are quoted from him is because ancient commentators who had access to Epimenides’s writings made note of this fact.

Based on these two quotations, we can reconstruct the passage as a refutation of the widely held Kretan belief that Zeus was a mortal king of Krete and that he died there and was buried. This belief is also referenced by the early mythographer Euhemeros (whom you may remember from my previous article “The Original Myth-Busters”).

The authors of the New Testament must have either really admired Epimenides or at least seen him as a useful figure to establish good relations with the pagans because he is quoted, not once, but twice in the New Testament, and in different books no less, making him the most quoted non-Jewish writer in the entire Bible. It is also interesting that this passage directly refers to Epimenides as a “prophet,” which makes him one of a small handful of non-Jewish persons to be explicitly referred to as a prophet.

In addition to these five direct quotes, there are also passages, particularly in Paul’s letters, where Christian teachings are explained using concepts from Greek philosophy. For instance, Paul’s famous description of the body having many parts with different functions in 1 Corinthians 12 may have been partly inspired by a similar image conjured up in Platon’s Protagoras 349c, in which Sokrates uses the example of how the different parts of the face all perform very different functions from each other and from the function of the whole and yet, through the combination of all the different parts working together in harmony, they each contribute to the function of the whole.''


So again, If St Paul copied from Greek philosophy, he was not using his own thoughts or reasoning, or being inspired by God, he was copying other people's work, the work of Greek Philosophers.

Apart from Paul the pharisee quoting from
the Hellenistic influenced Koine Greek O.T. (Septuagint)
Paul employed all means necessary to maximize
his audience... He made himself all things to all
people... To Jews he appealed as a Jew,
to Greeks as a greek, to the weak as weak,
to those with or without the law, he came across
as one with or without the law respectively.

For the N.T. Paul takes from Plato, Socrates,
Menander, Epimenides, Aratus, Aristotle, Seneca.

SOME suggest Jesus would not have cared for it,
desiring that Jews return to the Law in a way that
abandonned the routine of ritual and the erroneous
interpretations of Hellenistic influenced teachers.
#####

Early Church fathers including Basil, Clement, Origen, Augustine, Gregory (the Great) , Gregory (of Nyssa)
etc., were versed in Platonism, Neoplatonism, and
Aristotelianism.
They employed their philosophical training to refine
the theology of the Trinity and the two natures of
Christ, and the Orthodox formulation of the Nicene
Creed which became std. for East and West church
for centuries.

Augustine mentioned above, is credited for reading Bible via Hellenistic philosophy, and Augustinian theology has become foundational for much of Western culture and Christianity.

Ok, this will end up long and boring but some may trudge through it.

The applicable term I’ve seen used for this is issue is “riffing on the audience.” Preachers today use it quite a bit. A pastor may start a sermon by trying to establish a connection with an audience or pique interest by quoting current day football coach about what he said is required to win or build a strong team. He might then launch into how the the coach’s words could be useful in a personal life or church setting.

For,example, Corinth was a trading center with a great variety of peoples and many backgrounds. Many might read the letter would immediately recognize the quotes from the Greek writers. As a modern day preacher might do, Paul was likely trying to “grab the reader’s attention” for the purpose of presenting a follow on point.

The article you so artfully cut and pasted avoids this explanation.

In fact, the article finishes by falsely claiming ....”if St. Paul copied from Greek philosophy, he was not using his own thoughts or reasoning....,he was copying other people’s work.” This is a dishonest and misleading conclusion. Lousy research and biased literary analysis.

I will post this and then later, after church come home and beat this to death.

Paul was “riffing” to make a point of connection with audience and clearly did not “borrow” to make NT philosophy.

Btw....use the idea of “riffing” to grab someone’s attention is very common.

All right.

I'd forgotten about curdog, how is he?

For DBT......One clear example of this is indeed Titus1:12....

Paul is talking about correcting false teachers...

Here is what Paul says...”As one of their own prophets has said, ‘Cretan are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”

Paul goes on to confirm the idea that false teachers should be rebuked..... by the way, he mentions “dishonorable gain”. Whoever wrote your point #5 was deliberately incomplete in the description and I am pretty sure had slander as a motive.

Whoever wrote the comment on your point #5 fails.... on purpose, to present the context.

Who is the false teacher here?

Titus wasn't written by Paul, but you already know that.

Well, this is interesting. One atheist claims Paul, in his writings, borrowed from Greek philosophy and another atheist claims that Paul didn’t write Titus.

Figures.....


Later today, I will finish up on the letter to Titus for DBT.

Perhaps in the meantime, you can tell us why Paul was not the author of Titus?

We've already discussed the Pastoral Epistles and how we know they were not written by the author of the 6 "authentic" Pauline Epistles.

My point was in relation to the claim that the bible, the new testament, etc, is the inspired word of God, yet here we have Paul not being inspired by God, not putting his own thoughts to parchment, but copying the work of Pagans, Greek Philosophers.

Can you not see the implications of this for the bible?

They are chasing arguments in details while the whole premise of their belief is flawed, as historic details are revealing. Optimistic at the very least.

Yes, I can see it and you are totally wrong. Paul's use of some reference to the culture of the day is entirely appropriate and does not negate the inspiration of what he says.....

DBT and his comment: “So again. If St Paul copied from Greek philosophy, he was not using his own thoughts or reasoning or being inspired by God, he was copying other people’s work, the work of Greek Philosophers.”

Note that Titus is in Crete and Paul is advising him on how to deal with rebellious dissenters and ….. deceivers there in Crete as he is tasked with building up the church. There are problems in Crete and Paul is advising. Paul is providing Titus with material to use and insight.

However, your point is that if he copied …. or quoted from other sources, he was not using his own thoughts? Right….. and since it was not his own “reasoning” it could not be inspired by God.

Your point might have a tiny bit of merit if he was using the quotes to add doctrine and introduce a new teaching. He is of course NOT doing that at all. That would be like saying it is God’s word that “….Cretans are always liars, evil beasts , slow bellies….”

Note that no one has ever said that this was Paul’s point. In fact, he does indeed attribute the comment to an earlier poet from Crete. He did this to help make a point…. perhaps some “riffing” …. perhaps to put in a line call attention of the Cretans to that saying. This is not doctrine that he is teaching.
Any implication that Paul used Greek philosophy and massaged it into Christian doctrine is simple deceit, fabricated to undermine Paul’s teachings.

Consider this.... let's suppose God wanted to make a point to someone and while doing so, explained to them about what FDR may have said in 1941. Would that communication be invalidated because of God's reference what FDR said?

No, it would not be invalidated.

btw.... Jesus often used figures of speech. If someone did not understand this he might misunderstand when Jesus said He was the "gate for the sheep."

The point is this...…not understanding is not reason to toss out all that you do not understand. I have literally heard people object to Jesus as He could not possible be "bread."

The article you quote from says this: “….. there are also passages….. where Christian teachings are explained using concepts from Greek philosophy….” This is for the purpose of explaining and transmitting understanding to people of differing languages and cultures. The use of “Greek philosophy” is simply a tool to assist in conveying a Christian teaching. Nothing else.

Nah, I don't agree at all, but this has gone way stale and I still have scopes to mount for tomorrow's range day......Out.

Dont quote/cut and paste like Paul did.. OK?... 😂




Why would God need to quote FDR?
when he has the magical power to
make any person understand God's
own words?