Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 308 vs small bore

Sold some guns and looking to consolidate. I have a 6.5 creedmoor, 6.5 Swede, 257 Roberts, and 223. Does it make sense to have a 30 caliber for bigger jobs? Or is there basically zero difference between 6.5 and .308 when it comes to stopping/killing ability due to modern bullet technology?

And yes i am redundant in my rifles but they have varying degrees of different tasks and sentimental attachment.

I suppose that the game being hunted might matter?

Guy

I have the ones you listed plus a couple of .308's.

It depends a lot on the individual rifle, IMO.

I HATE the one rifle scenario, gives me the creeps...

BUT, the .308 is probably the most versatile of them all, especially for a hand loader.

DF

What are "bigger jobs"?

A Swede or Creedmoor with an appropriate bullet is capable of quite a lot.

Thinking along the lines of larger stuff like bears or a moose, etc. Guessing my 6.5mm's aren't going to create the wound channel I need?

I dunno - the 6.5's have been awfully successful for a very long time.

Personally, I favor a little bigger bullet for bigger game, but as always, good bullet placement with a good bullet is key for success.

I'll be interested in the replies here. Mostly I hunt with a 30-06 and a 25-06, using the 25-06 primarily for mule deer & pronghorn. I know that it will take elk & bear, but I use a bigger rifle for those.

Regards, Guy

I know the energy and wind drift differences. But would poking a larger hole (not a lot larger obviously) be a good idea due to blood trail creation, etc?

If I felt a Swede with a 140 Partition or 120 TTSX was truly inadequate for whatever task then it would take more than a 308 Winchester to make me feel better. I'd probably get out my 338 Win and some 250 Partitions.

I'd Happily use the 6.5s on ALL North American game, Except Big Bears......if I had no backup. On those I would feel better with a 9.3 or 375, talking Grizzly......on the H&H.

I will add, IF for any reason I had s charge by a large bear, the larger heavier rounds might ...again MIGHT make one a bit more comfortable. For me, it would start at 338/06 with 225 Partitions, though a 200 PT in an '06 would do well. The 350 RM with 225 PT would also do well. Might not make much difference, but if I were running a 30, I would use an 06 over the 308, a bit heavier bullet at better speeds. I would not pick a magnum, in the 30, that's just me. Not if shooting nominal ranges.

You’re down to 4 rifles and want to consolidate? Okay, if you only want one keep the 6.5 RIFLE you like better (caliber doesn’t matter.) If you want to keep 2 rifles, keep the.223 as well.

I have already consolidated. Just wondering if I have a need to add one.

Mathman is on the track I was thinking about. If the 6.5 isn't the best choice, how big do I need to go, if at all?

I'd think in terms of bullet weight and velocity for however do you define bigger. A 180-200 gr bullet launched from a 30-06 is likely a bigger hammer than those listed. Or a 338-06/35 wh would be equally as good with tolerable recoil in a totable rifle. I'm a fan of 06 based cartridges as bigger hammers. They give more bullet weight and decent velocity making them good for distances growly things operate in.

Much wisdom here. The .308 is truly a choice of hard to beat chamberings. It's a very fine cartridge.

I'm heavily invested in several 308 rifles and have a 30-06 with too much history to sell although I rarely use it anymore. I like my 308's; have some nice rifles and have put in the time to work up loads for them that work well.

I bought a 6.5 CM just to see what the fuss is all about. I'm impressed with the cartridge, but at this stage of my life probably won't change. The 6.5 will remain a range toy for me and I'll probably hunt with the 308's the rest of my hunting career. The 308 MIGHT be a slightly more effective cartridge on game bigger than deer, but if a 6.5 isn't big enough to get the job done I'll skip right over 308, and even 30-06 for that matter.

The thing that opened my eyes was a ballistics gel test I saw comparing a 143 gr Hornady ELDX in 6.5 CM to a 178 gr Hornady ELDX fired from a 308. Both bullets penetrated exactly the same distance and it was impossible to tell the difference in expanded bullet diameter just by looking at it.

Well the next time I go hunting for ballistic gel I'll try a 6.5 something or other. 'Til then I'll stick with my .30s, or my .270, or my 7 mag, or my 338, or ANYTHING but a 6.5 anything. 😁

Sometimes, I grab the rifle according to the scope I want to use mounted on it. The truth is you probably already want one or you wouldn't be asking, go ahead and scratch the itch.

.308 is more fun, louder, kicks up more dust, just more exciting, and they tend to be accurate. They are also efficient and handy with a short barrel.

Here in Montana I’d be comfortable with the 6.5 CM or 6.5x55 for everything.

Much as I love the 308, if I really felt the need for something bigger I’d skip right past the 308 and get a 30-06 in order to handle 200 gr. bullets. But I genuinely can’t find the need for either for the hunting I do.

Swedes have been killing moose for a long time with their 6.5s.... so unless you regularly hunt large truculent bears, I'd say your pretty well covered.

The longer I hunt, the less I'm convinced all this minutiae makes any difference.

Would happily hunt anything with a .308 that I've hunted with the .30-06--and these days I consider the .30-06 a "big" cartridge. Not like the .375 H&H or .416 Rigby, but even in Africa a bunch of Cape buffalo have been killed with the .30-06--or 7mm Remington Magnum, or .300 Winchester Magnum. Shoot any big game in the right place with a bullet that expands and penetrates sufficiently and they all die pretty quickly.

Amen to that......right on.

You need a .45-70.

The bigger the hole, the faster the boat sinks

I haven't done as much hunting as you, but my thoughts are the same. The more I hunt, the more I realize that it really doesn't matter all that much from .270 - .300 magnum. A good bullet in the right place will handle most game. Heck, maybe even a 6.5 will do.

Guy

I think like said above....

The 308 can do everything the micro bores can do.

So why own a micro bore?

The 45/70 is a freaking classic that has no comparable......unless we need to figure out the 444, 450 marlin differences.

Bottom line

Sell your micro bores......

Buy a 308 and a big bore!

Job done!

I decided if i can't easily kill it with a ttsx from the Swede i don't wanna take the chance of pissing it off lol

Sticking with my small stuff.

Always good to hear from guys who have shot 500 more animals than I have, to have that big sample size from which to draw information.

I see you are in OH - keep in mind, if you ever put in for a KY elk tag, the geniuses in charge down here have a .270 caliber minimum restriction.

That might be one reason to think about bumping up above 6.5, if you ever put in for the KY elk draw.

Bless you, fellow Looney. Lol

Eventually i will have to buy a 270 i guess

I really like the 308 bore myself. Always seemed to me that it was superior to smaller bores for some things, like blood trails for instance. That said if you are hunting in the open it really doesn't matter much if the animal runs 30 yards or 150 yards it will still be easy to find generally. For an in the timber elk load a 200 grain partition going 2400fps or so is a fine combination for the bigger stuff.

The big bears get mentioned frequently in these discussions, but unless you or close family live in Alaska or the Yukon ... you will likely be in a guided situation should you ever get to intentionally pursue said brownie. Just something to keep in mind and lesson the anxiety of not having a .458 ... you can leave that for Phil!

Yeah, that wimpy 6.5-300 Weatherby just won't cut it.

Or the notoriously wimpy 6.5x55.

Silliest thing about the KY elk rule is, the way I read it there are no case dimension restrictions or anything, just a .270 or above restriction. In theory, you could take a 9mm or .380 pistol elk hunting, but not a 6.5 rifle.

Pure genius.

Probably some KY rule makers have CBHS.

In the end, it really doesn't matter what anyone says. If your mind tells you to get something bigger, get a 30-06. It will make you happy and comfortable.

IF I thought I needed a bigger rifle than the 6.5s, I'd pobably get an '06. When I gave my .308 to my son, I replaced it with another, just because of all the brass, bullets, and .308-friendly powder on hand. It's a great round for a bunch of reasons, but I don't think you need one, or anything else until big bears become a possibility.

What I'm wondering is how you handle the deer in Ohio; shotgun, ML, or straightwall rifle?

for deer a 5.56 will kill them fine because I have done it several times, I prefer hunting with my roberts these days, it does everything for me on deer that i want with cheap 117 grain hornady bullets. If you go somewhere you need a bigger gun, get something bigger than a 308, I sold a nice 300wsm because it burned a s--t ton of powder and did nothing on deer that a smaller gun would not do, but again depending on what your hunt you might want something bigger than that. If someone was giving guns away and I had to pick something to take almost anywhere a 375 of some type would not be a bad choice.

I agree that the 30-06 is the next step up on the ladder. It’s not abusive to the shooter, but does recoil more, while making a bigger hole and wrecking more tissue. A North American hunter can be well-armed with a friendly 6.5 and a “big” 30-06.

That is signature material. Good post.

Are we seeing the rebirth of the "old boring" '06?

The case capacity to bore ratios for the 6.5CM/260/Swede and 30-06 are only 5-6% apart and can often function well with the same powders. It's a logical pairing. The .338WinMag falls in there too, for the next notch up past the Springfield. They'll all do well burning something along the lines of 4350.

I don't think so. It never left.

I do not have ammunition or rifle sales data for the 30-06, but I am certain that it sells a comfortable number of rifles and factory ammunition every year, and is probably in the top 10. This might anger some here, but cartridges like the 30-06, 30-30, the 270 and a few others keep selling, despite efforts to bury them. They work better than most of the newer offerings. The proof is evident by their continued demand. Even the new copper and bonded bullets haven't managed to push them off the front page. If anything, they have made cartridges like the 30-30 or the 270 better.

There will always be contenders to knock them from the top. Very few will earn a permanent spot. For example, the WSMs and WSSMs. What ever happened to them? Several came out, but few survived. Most were a flash in the pan. (sorry)

Which cartridges will still be around in 2070? I don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me to hear that the 30-06, 223 or the 30-30 will be there.

Why do these old cartridges have such a good track record? They just work...with boring regularity. The majority of hunters and shooters don't hang out here or on other websites debating why cartridge x is better then cartridge y. They just go into the field and harvest game. Proof of what works is the list of chamberings rifle companies offer year after year.

You cannot dismiss 100 years of sales. The 6.5 CM may or may not make the list, but it's too soon to know for sure. We can re-examine this 50 years from now.

One last thing: In part, gunwriters earn a living writing about the latest company offerings, but personally, they have their favourites. If you had five well known gunwriters around a campfire and asked them what their absolute keeper cartridge would be, I think the answers might surprise you.

"It never left", well put and so true.

And no, I don't think I'd be surprised. Old farts (me included) generally like the older rounds, based on nostalgia and years of experience. I'll admit to a Loony desire to try new stuff, but when the chips are down, hard to beat proven ordnance.

And, Heaven forbid, it got down to just one or two rifles, the "old '06" would definitely be there.

DF

good on you!

When Melvin Forbes started making his Ultra Light rifles in the late 80s, he sent me one to test for a while, a .300 Winchester Magnum, which shot great. That one was not for sale, so I decided to order one. Danced around with a few until realizing that what I really wanted was a .30-06, partly because I was doing a LOT of travel hunting then, and knew that even by some strange circumstance my ammo got separated from my rifle I could find a factory load anywhere on earth that would work. It was also very practical for testing new ammo and bullets, which sometimes occurred on "industry" hunts, because the first bullet most companies introduce is a 180-grain .30, and the first factory ammo they make is .30-06. Which is part of why I've taken more big game with the NULA .30-06 than any other rifle it showed up in 1996....

In how many rounds can one start with light bullets (110 gr.) do a X2 up to 220 gr.?

While 110 gr. may not the be the ultimate varmint bullet, 220 gr. may not be the ultimate big critter bullet, they'll both do their intended jobs with a bunch of in between choices that also do what they're supposed to do.

Pretty unique, IMO.

DF

I've posted this a couple of times, but every time someone says "30-06", an angel gets its wings.

The 30-06

The 30-06 is a real man's tote,
With an envious history that's worthy of note.
As pure and as pious as an Ave Maria,
As fun and as funky as a Cherry Garcia.

It never went stale like the short magnums did.
Or disappointed deer hunters. Heaven forbid!
From varmints to deer, big bears and more.
Through Vietnam, Korea, and two world wars.

Shot from Springfields, Garands and BARs,
It's earned its fair share of battlefield scars.
From 1906 to the present day,
It hasn't slowed down. It's not getting gray.

But what of the question: just what can't it do?
The answer is "nothing", but you already knew.
It's always been the best of America's picks.
The legend continues. The 30-06.

-Stephen Redgwell, 2016

Cool.

Thanks for sharing. I hadn't seen it before.

Classic round, great description.

DF

With the 3003 being a parent case of the 270 does it have more case capacity than the 3006?

No, the 30-03 and 30-06 differ in neck length but the bodies of the 2 shells are the same.

Actually, most modern cartridges are redesigns of the 303 British. European spies were everywhere! US ones as well. The 30-06, contrary to popular belief, had nothing to do with Peter Paul's Mausers, or the cartridges that were fired from them. Espionage was rampant.

Even the use of wood as a rifle stock was copied from the Lee Metford/Enfield designs. The Prussians weren't having much success using bratwurst as stock material, and took the British lead by using wood.

The 30-06 - an elongated rimless 303 British.
The 308 - a US copy of a rimless 303 British.
The Mauser cartridge family (all variants) German copies of a stretched rimless 303 British.
The 22 LR - a really, really small 303 British.
The 375 H&H - a bigger 303 British.
etc.

That was darned funny!

I always considered the 30s as small bores, the mediums start somewhere around .32 or .33 caliber with most of the 8mms smaller than the 8x68 and 8mm RM fitting better in the small bore category. The 325 WSM being almost a tweener.

You're one of the few. That is an old timey definition.

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2017/8/23/what-is-the-definition-of-a-smallbore-rifle/

My two cents is that unless you have to meet some silly caliber or case shape restrictions or are planning on going after the big bears or big African game, you don’t need anything else to get the job done. However, if a bigger hole in the barrel will give you greater peace of mind, then you can’t go wrong with the .30-06. As stated above, over 100 years and many battles have proven the effectiveness and cartridges can be found literally everywhere that cartridges are sold.

After a little debate I got my Fieldcraft in 30-06. I figured a 168 gr TTSX at 2850 fps was never the wrong answer for what I hunt. Or for that matter a 150 gr TTSX at 3k.

My Buddy told me most moose harvested in the world is by the 6.5 x 55 due to Scandinavia hunting.

I know it's not important here but the 6.5 has a robust sectional density offering.

Angus,

That was probably true at one time, but I have hunted in Scandinavia and the 6.5x55 isn't nearly as popular as it used to be. My first trip was to Norway in 1996, and by far the most popular big game round was the .308 Winchester--I would guess because Norway was one of the original NATO countries

I hunted with a number of different hunters during traditional game drives (popular over there), and never ran into a hunter with a 6.5x55.

So true on a lot of moose was taken with the 6.5x55 there that is the goto round.
I have hunted around the world in my years from Africa/Europe/Russia/Mongolia/Alaska and the lower 48 the rifles I pack is the 6.5x55/Weatherby 300mag/375H&H/30,06 Have taken a cape with the 6.5x55 a lucky shot right in the ear canal straight to the brain. Was aiming to break the neck he stepped backed just as I squeezed.
so as a smaller round it will do the job and also have been known to drop a elephant and as early in this thread bullet placement

Very cool Steve!

Steve,
The 22 long rifle pre-dates the 303 British by several years (22lr--1884, 303 British--1889). The 22 LR is derived from the 22 long (1871) which, in turn, was derived from the 22 short (1857).
I guess that means the 303 British is nothing more than an enlarged 22 short. This, then, must mean that all the others on your list are themselves derivatives of the 22 short.

There are only a handful of animals I wouldn't hunt gladly with what you own, and all of them are dangerous game.


What do you plan to hunt?

Deer. Elk eventually. Antelope.

First let me say I am 80 years old and in the eyes of the rest of you, I am probably considered an "old timer". I personally really like the 30-06 and believe it to be one of the best all around all around classic calibers ever. But I have never owned one! I have been witness to the 30-06 doing it's stuff for over 60 years in the hands of my best friend; who just passed away this year at age 83. He owned a pre 1964 Winchester Model 70 FWT in 30-06 and used it exclusively for his big game hunting; including white tail, mule, and black tail deer, elk, bear, on occasion coyotes. He was an excellent outdoors man and loved hunting and fishing. He made a career as a Civil Engineer for the U.S. forest service for over 40 years serving as the Forest Engineer in 7 National forests and several Regional offices. He knew the woods better than any man I ever knew. So with that amount of admiration, you would of thought I would follow his lead, but I didn't and ended using a 308 Win for most of my hunting. I read recently where the 308 has replaced the 30-06 as leader in ammunition and rifle sales. That may be true, but I know my old buddy would of stuck with his 30-06, just as I have stuck with my 308 Win. As we all should know by now, It is the skill behind the rifle, more than the caliber. The hunter that knows the capabilities and limitations of his firearm, will prove to be the more successful hunter, than the man the relies just on the most powerful rifle he can tolerate shooting. So my advice is to choose the a rifle adequate for the game you are pursing, know it well, practice with it, and go through life loving the chase and excitement of the hunt! And take time to smell the roses; and the aroma of the fresh brewed coffee!

CJ

CJ - your last two sentences are the best advice I’ve heard yet on this forum

Thank you

Among what I consider my regular deer rifles, I have .223's 6.5 X 55, .308, .300 WSM, .303 Savage, .44 mag and .45-70. There are others, and revolvers, but these are what I consider my "first string" deer rifle calibers. Seldom is the caliber the criteria of selection. It's more often how well suited the sights/optics, action type, handling characteristics etc are considering the type of hunting and the terrain and weather I'll be hunting in. That said, if I had to whittle it down to one caliber, it would probably be a toss up between 6.5x55 and .308. I do think the 6.5x55 is a wonderful balance of accuracy, mild shooting and sufficient power to be adequate for anything I've ever hunted or will hunt in the future.

This!

True that!

CascadeJinx
" So my advice is to choose the a rifle adequate for the game you are pursing, know it well, practice with it, and go through life loving the chase and excitement of the hunt! And take time to smell the roses; and the aroma of the fresh brewed coffee!"

These topics have been beat to death, formulae have been touted, numbers enough to make the head spin. As a 50 year veteran of the 6.5 Swede and a few years with the the Creedmoor with 140's or heavier, I gotta say, numbers and theory aside, the thwack of the old '06 with a 165 or 180 at a 50 pound steel target at 600 yards is an eye opener. Very clearly heard thru earmuffs. The difference of night and day. The '06 hits that steel hard. Even the .308 with 155 gr is a noticeable step up from the 6.5's. But, I don't shoot game at those ranges, so this too may be hot air.

One of the more interesting tests my wife and I have made concerning "killing power" involved a 9-iron golf club over 20 years ago. Eileen had taken up golf, and was playing the local course (which doesnt have many trees, but does have quite a few rocks sticking out of the ground in the "rough"). She hit one into the rough, and despite it lying next to a half-buried rock, took a whack at it with the 9-iron. She severely sprained a wrist, to the point where the arm had to be put in a cast--and we were scheduled to fly to Kodiak Island the next week to fish the silver salmon run. We did, and she managed to catch a couple, but could have caught quite a few more if it hadn't been for the wrist.

When we got back, she decided to take revenge on the offending 9-iron. A local friend has a good target range set up on his country place, and had invited us to do some shotgun and rifle shooting one weekend, so she brought the 9-iron and her .270 Winchester. We used some wire to hang the 9-iron up below the 50-yard rifle target stand, and she sat down and whacked the blade with a 150-grain Nosler Partition. The club whirled around under the target--but all we could find on the blade was a tiny dent. Our host has a big gun collection, and told us to hold on. He went into the house, and soon came back out with a .375 H&H and some handloads with steel-jacketed, 300-grain solids. Eileen was not eager to shoot the .375, so I had the honor. The 9-iron was torn from the target stand, and when we found it had a neat 3/8" hole in the middle of the blade, one of most vivid demonstrations of killing power I've ever seen.

Don't know what the hell it has to do with big game, however, since Eileen never had any trouble dropping animals with the .270, including a bull Shiras moose that's still the quickest-deadest moose kill I've ever witnessed from a double lung-shot.

Maybe it's time to develop a new ballistic term that people can wrap their minds around? How about "Splat Factor"? It's so much more graphic than 'killing power' after all.

And for the record I view the .30 caliber as a small bore. Distant recollection on my part from the Army days, if it isn't a cannon, it's small bore. Maybe there's an official distinction out there somewhere, I dunno.

The Mule Deer guy oughta get a job in the writing game. In three short paragraphs, humor, a valid demonstration of physics, the point is made, and the last sentence, a reality check.
Home run.

My preference is for .308 caliber over a 6.5 for elk and bear. But no doubt the 6.5 will work if the bullets are put in the right place. I think these things are mostly about personal preference. If it were me, I would pick a 30-06 but a .308 would also work well. Pretty had to beat either of those cartridges for a wide variety of uses, especially for game larger/tougher than deer.

The question is, has Eileen learned the important lesson of not playing golf?

Actually, she recently started again--but so far mostly practices pitching and putting, and even on our local course the area around the greens doesn't have any rocks....

There was a rather compelling study in Sweden that was done where 8000 moose were taken with cartridges from 6.5 Swede to 338 win mag and cartridges in between! The study concluded that there was no noticable difference in how far each animal traveled before dying after it was shot with any of the cartridges that were used. The study was done because apparently there were rumours circulating Western Civilization that magnum cartridges killed game far quicker and in there tracks! The European study found these rumours to be untrue at least on moose. Big bears certainly might have a different outcome though I don't know if a study on that subject has ever been done or compared

My thoughts are that with modern bullet offerings this is more true today than it has ever been.


Trystan

For around 30 years or so I used both a 30-06 and a 270 to do almost all my Mule deer and Elk hunting. I fooled around with 300 magnums and a 338 but in the end for Elk I preferred my 30-06 using 180 gr. Speer Hotcors or Nosler Partitions. Could have been that 30-06 fit me well and hit exactly where I aimed every time. It is the only rifle I have kept since high school. If it had been built as a 270 I would feel the same way. Killing power always hinged on where the bullet hit the animal in question. And no I wouldn't take a 6.5 Creedmoor Ek hunting if I had access to a 270 or 30-06. Why go smaller if you don't have to. If I had an Elk hunt to get done and access to no other rifle yes I would use the 6.5.

rickt300,

I have considerable field experience with various "moderate" 6.5mm cartridges, including not only the dreaded Creedmoor, but the 6.5x55 and .260 Remington. Also have a LOT of experience with the .270 Winchester, and have yet to see any difference in either "killing power" or penetration between the moderate 6.5s and the .270 when using the same types of bullets. But whatever....

Trystan,

Actually the cartridges in the Swedish statistics included the .375 H&H, and a few even larger. But many (if not most) moose in Scandinavia are killed on drives, which makes bullet placement a little iffy, despite considerable practice on running-moose targets. The statistics also did not include any info on shot placement. But the considerable numbers of moose taken do indicate something--which is of course that if a hunting bullet penetrates and expands sufficiently, the animal dies quickly.

For me it just boils down mostly to the success I have had using the 270 and 30-06. When I handle the old 30-06 I think of the mountains west of Daniel junction and the smell of Elk backstrap sizzling in bacon grease. I used the 6.5x55 some as an iron sight rifle with 140 gr. Partitions, took a 14 point Mule deer with it and still have the horns but not the rifle. My only 6.5 presently is a Grendel.

.223; .308; .366 for me. Default .308 for hogs and deer. If smaller cartridge wanted - jump down to .223. if bigger wanted (in Europe never needed) jump up .366.

In the past I have been cutting things much closer - .223; .243; .284; .308; .323; .366; .458. Drove me nuts. For noticeable difference in on game performance (same bullet type) I have cut back to the three mentioned above - and the major factor to me is indeed blood trails. For hogs no sub .308 cal. for me anymore - mind, in Europe wild boar are an indigenous game species and not classed as feral, so animals are actually followed up with dogs on sub par shots and a blood trail helps.

I’ve never owned a6.5 let alone killed game with one. But I’ve shot piles of deer with a 25-06 and a 270 and a 308. I always felt like the 308 hit hardest of them all. Always used cup and core bullets in them all when deer hunting. More often than not Hornady but also Sierra, BT’s, rem core lokts, hot cores and even a few accubonds and partitions.
,I believe the 308 left better blood trails on average than the 270 and definitely better than the 25-06. I’m a big 308 fan and have taken probable 25 different species of big game with one. When the game was bigger I would switch to a 168 tsx. I am confident that a 6.5 with a good bullet would be a fine killer of game.... tsx or tsx’s are wonderful killers of game. Dang.... I think I just talked myself into a 6.5!! Bottom line any appropriate cartridge and bullet placed properly is going to work.

Ben