Home Forums Reloading Bullet Casting Lyman 311041 in a 30-30

Has anyone actually used the Lyman 311041 bullets in their 30-30 ??

I have some, and the ogive don't fit my gun. (Win Mdl. 94)

In other words, chambering pushes the bullet way beyond the crimping groove.

Thanks,
Smitty of the North

chambering, as in when you slide it in the magazine tube? it gets pushed in.

or how deep you have to seat it in order to get it to function?

Have you crimped the bullet? Frankly, your post is a bit confusing as to what the problem is. A before and after set of pictures would go a long way in solving your problem.
Paul B.

I've shot that bullet (sized .309") by the hundreds out of two or three M94s - all pre-AE if that matters. It may be true that some bear against or are close to the lands. I do know that the bullet shoots very well in my rifles.

I too shoot the 173gr lyman.Do very well in both our win94's and marlin336. I seat them to and crimp in the top groove. have no problem closing the lever/bolt.We fl sz the brass and trim to 2.020".What is your case trim length. If it's too close to max length, it could be pushing the ogive too far forward. Just my .0475's worth. Dave

Gentlemen:
I�ll try to make my question more clear.

Chambering means putting the round in the chamber.

My practice, is to seat a bullet long, and chamber it, to determine where the lands are. Then I seat it deeper to insure that there is no contact with the lands.

When I do this, using this bullet, the crimping groove ends up inside the case neck. That means, that if I were to crimp into the crimping groove, the bullet would really be jammed into the lands. The amount is so much that it isn't something that can be taken care of by trimming the cases, to the minimum length, or even a little less.

If the bullet was designed for the 30-30, wouldn't the bullet be, not quite to the crimping groove? I would then be able to seat to where the end of the case is at the crimping groove on the bullet, and crimp it there, and the bullet wouldn't be touching the lands when I chamber it.

Apparently, the ogive of this bullet is larger than the throat of my rifle. (I have some other bullets (Lazer Cast) (Alloy too hard) that I can seat to where I can crimp into the groove and the bullet doesn�t, contact the lands.)

I got these Lyman 411041 bullets on the assumption that they would work like that in my 30-30, but they don't.

I was wondering it this is unique to my rifle, or if the Lyman 411041 was really a 30-30 bullet. I can call Lyman after the week end, on that, I guess.

I'm also wondering what my alternatives are as to shooting these bullets. Since the bullet is relatively soft, can I crimp anywhere on the bullet? (without a groove)

Thanks again
Smitty of the North

Smitty, get a factory crimp die (I believe Lee makes one for 30-30), and you can crimp anywhere without ruining accuracy. Just don't try cuttng the bullet in two!

I would try crimping in the crimping groove, and shooting a few for accuracy. Never know, they may do quite well even if it is a bit long.

HawkI:
I'm using a Lee Factory Crimp die, I can do that. I did a couple of dummy rounds that way, and they feed through the magazine OK. I dunno what else I can do if I'm to use these bullets, other than having the throat on my rifle lengthened. I am reluctant to do that.

Blammer:
If I did crimp into the crimping groove, I dunno if the round would even chamber, but if it did, I believe it would break the crimp loose. It would be more than a "bit long".

Thanks
Smitty of the North

The forward portion is designed to ride on top of the lands, or be slightly engraved by the lands. The aft portion should be sized to fit the groove diameter. Unless the nose diameter is grossly oversize it should pose no problem for you.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that you got an oversize mould. Before condemning it though, have you slugged your bore to determine both bore and groove diameter? Perhaps you have a bore a little on the tight side- not totally unheard of also.

Anyway, if it were mine, I would at least crimp it normally and try chambering it. Upon withdrawing it unfired from the chamber if the bullet wasn't pushed back (or left stuck in the throat) I wouldn't worry too much about it. A nice tight nose-bearing bullet will generally give much better accuracy. Essentialy, under these conditions, the bullet is starting out perfectly centered in the rifling instead of having to jump, skip, hop, wobble up to the starting line, so to speak!

Crimp the bullet only enough to guarantee function. Crimps are another accuracy eroder with cast bullets if done with too heavy a hand.

gnoahhh:

I didn't think the Lyman 311041 wass a bore riding design. It doesn't appear to be.

Anyhoo, I tried your suggestion. (Blammer's too) I made a dummy round, with the bullet crimped into the crimping groove. It chambered OK, AND the bullet didn't stay in the barrel when I extracted it. Hmmm, that was unexpected. (by me)

The lands did make very distinct marks on the bullet. Of course this lead alloy is comparatively soft. I wonder if a soft alloy creates bullets larger than a harder alloy

I was busy today until late this evening. I shall call Lyman tomorrow, about this too.

Thanks to all my advisors. I sure need'em.

Smitty of the North

A bit more antimony and tin would help shrink them. If I remember right my alloy cast at about .300/.301 for the forward portion. Shot a lot of them in a M94, got several deer with it before I sold it.

Smitty,
Based on what I've read, you probably have the PERFECT recipe for an accurate cast load. Yes, very few Lyman designs ARE NOT bore riding in the nose, but since you can chamber and crimp and most importantly remove the loaded cartridge while having land engraving on the bullet, you are in luck. Cast bullets really LIKE touching the lands, as gnoah has stated. Do not overcrimp!
You do not mention your alloy, but adding tin and antimony will make your bullets LARGER.
I generally find that harder bullets from rifles shoot better, assuming your lube is working.
If you are using WW,if you want to make "smaller" bullets, add some pure lead. You can always make even half ww half pure lead harder if you need it by heat treating (from 8 BHN to 16 BHN).
Lyman will probably not be much help. Much of their great knowledge of casting is in their Manual.
Having the lands engrave the nose means the bearing surface is filling the throat, that's a plus! To put it another way, you would not want barrel diameter in a revolver, you want to match the throats. Rifles are essentially the same, if you want accuracy, align the bullet in the throat, but touching the lands as well ("soft" lead will not go out of balance by mashing if aligned this way).
Finally, before you change everything, allow the gun to speak! Your loaded cartridges may be more satisfying to look at after you fire them! Perhaps the only disease is that they are not aesthetically pleasing!

Spend the time you would spend calling Lyman by shooting those bullets instead!

Essentially any cast bullet with a nose smaller in diameter than the base is (or should be) a bore-riding design. It doesn't have to be very long- but the longer the better, as a general rule. If it rides the top of the lands properly.

A bullet with grease grooves the length of the bullet is another matter. They are known as "Loverin-style", after a target shooter/ experimenter/consultant to Lyman/Ideal 100 yrs. ago or so. Typical example of one is the old Lyman 311466. The idea was to have the front driving bands be slightly bigger in diameter than the bore, with the succeeding bands being progressively larger in diameter until the bottom ones fill the grooves. Recent ones ( the last 40yrs. or so) tend to be all one diameter though. Pretty much you are presenting a tapered slug into the throat, for perfect alignment. Accuracy guaranteed.

It all boils down to how well the bullet is introduced into the rifling. We won't go into bore-riding designs with bases tapered to match the throat of an individual rifle. Guys who are into it to that extent are getting accuracy that would make benchrest shooters of a generation ago blush.

Bottom line- shoot what you have. I'm betting you'll be pleasantly surprised. Try 15gr. SR-4759 if you can lay your hands on some.

Sorry for the long-winded diatribe, but this is a subject near-and-dear to my heart!!

OK guys, I�m gonna shoot some like you suggest. It peers like I was worried fer nuthin.

I couldn�t get any TS from Lyman today anyway. I was transferred to a Voice Mail.

The bullet nose IS a bit smaller than the forward driving band. Maybe .0005

I didn�t mould these bullets myself. They are WW with a little tin. The hardness was tested at 12-13. I wanted a mix that wouldn�t shatter on hard resistance. I�ve tested some that did shatter on a box stuffed full of magazines and catalogs. That slick paper is really tuff on bullets. Much tougher than newspaper or phone books.

I have some SR 4759, but my intention for these bullets, is to use them as a replacement for jacketed bullets. I want to shoot them at a speed that is comparable.

Thanks to all, for the answers I needed.

Smitty of the North

Smitty I've been following this with some interest. In theory, what you want can be done, that is either duplicate or get close to factory specs with cast lead in a 30-30. Your alloy at 11-12 BHN might be a hair too soft to prevent leading entirely, but should work OK. My alloy runs right at 14 BHN and I get no leading. My bullets are sized at .310"
While Lyman's #311041 should be a good bullet, my luck with it in two different molds and an NEI clone have been zip. (FWIW, I have nearly 100 molds in various calibers gathered up in 53 years of bullet casting.)Doesn't mean I won't sit down and play with it some more.
Bullets that have worked for me in the 30-30 are Lyman's #311291 (good 30-30 bullet designed in 1905) and the RCBS #30-180-FN. The Lyman bullet casts right at 175 gr. in my alloy and the RCBS bullet at 190 gr. it's no big deal to pust that 190 gr. bullet to 1950 FPS from a 20" 30-30 barrel and the load duplicates the old .303 Savage which ain't a bad place to be.
I have taken 15 deer with the Lyman bullet and two so far with the RCBS bullet. Most of the areas I seem to draw for deer are not quite 30-30 country so the 94s and Marlin have stayed at home. I'd run a batch this week but it's too damned hot to be casting bullets. An hour ago, it was 104 in the shade and there ain't no shade.
Paul B.

PJGunner:
That's good info. Thanks for your reply.

I don't mind a heavier bullet. I just want one that chambers, easier when I crimp into the crimping groove.

I've been real busy, but I loaded and tested 12 rounds. The bullet are engraved by the rifling. I understand, and it has been pointed out to me on this thread that this isn't necessarily a bad thing, but some of them chambered pretty hard. Enough so, that I don't think these bullets would be practical for hunting from that standpoint alone.

I'll load some more, and maybe determine if the ones that chamber harder have runout. ?????

The problem I have is the ogives are too tight fitting in the throat. Maybe so, my rifle is different. I'm still working it out, as time permits. I'll be trying different bullets, I reckon.
Thanks Again.
Smitty of the North

Smitty of the North

Smitty, you did not specify the size of your bullet. Perhaps sizing them .001 smaller will help. Runout is not your problem, casting variances (diameter) is. The mold not closing completely, even minutely, even when sized, and can cause some bullets to be larger than others. Lead alloys will also spring back after sizing, just like brass. You are close! Fitting cast is the most important part. Perhaps sorting your smallest nose sizes and throat sizes will help. I finally would suggest contacting LBT to get a mold made specifically for your gun. You won't have to dink with the bullet at all and the fitting will not vary like bore ride bullets will. Once you figure it out you can cast for anything, hit jacketed speeds, and spend less money!
Hoff

Are your bullets coming from a 2-cavity mould? Lyman (bless their hearts) has/had a rep for scratchy quality control back in the day. It wasn't at all unusual to get two different diameter bullets out of the same mould. Could explain why some chamber easier than others.

If such is the case, here's a little trick you can do: Determine which cavity is the "good" one, take a sharp center punch and LIGHTLY punch a tiny mark on the nose portion of the cavity right ahead of the front driving band. And I mean LIGHTLY! The bullets that come out of that cavity will have a small, barely noticeable (if you hit it lightly!) bellybutton-looking mark that will allow you to keep the bullets segregated. I usually make a punch mark further out on the nose of the 2nd cavity as well. (If I'm in an anal accuracy mood I orient the bullets into the lubri-sizer, thence into the case, and then into the gun the exact same way each time. Filed witness marks on all three lining up on the "bellybuttons" on the bullets. Heck, if I'm really anal I'll use just one cartridge case and reload it repeatedly right at the shooting bench.)

Good luck. Geez, I wish there had been forums like this to tap into when I was coming up. Could've avoided a lot of costly/time consuming mistakes.

HawkI:
They are sized OK. They are so big at the nose, (ogive) that it engraves the rifling in my rifle. I didn�t mould these bullets myself. I don�t have the mould.

Maybe they do have varying nose diameters. I can check on that. I was scratching, looking for a reason why some were tighter than others. I thought some might be mis-aligned.

As to the right mould, I bought some bullets from Oregon Trail, (Lazer Cast) that fit perfectly, but the alloy is too hard. I�m trying to find bullets suitable for hunting.
Thanks
Smitty of the North




Gnoahhh:
I didn�t mould these bullets myself. I dunno what kinda mould the guy used for them. It could have been a double cavity one for all I know. That might explain why some chambered harder than others. I've never heard of marking them that way, but it sounds like a good idea.

I can shoot these bullets, so they aren�t a waste. At this point I�m guessing they won�t be my final choice though.

Yeah, these forums are a big help, and I�m taking advantage of this one.

Thanks to all contributors. It gets interestinger, and interestinger.
Smitty of the North