Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire "All things work together for Good".

YOU might say that. But I don’t.

Now we are gettin' somewhere, disagreement!

I have a serious question about predestination. I consider myself a God fearing man. But I've always had issues with the idea of a "plan" for me. My belief is that the rules are laid out but I have free will and I make my own decisions in life, good and bad. Here's the question I have asked several people over the years and I have never gotten what seems to be a logical answer. If my path is set and I am not making all my own destination choices throughout my life, how can I be judged?

Splendid question Jake. I don't know. I wonder the same myself.

At times I feel like I've been put on this earth for a purpose.

According to Scripture God’s ordering of the universe is such that there is room for both His sovereign plan and my/our free will. It’s mysterious and it jacks with my head, but it is what it is. If I could “get it” I’d honestly begin to doubt my faith; my inability to grasp Christianity is a reason I believe it so firmly.

On the other hand there is the truth that God is God and He says He has a plan and that I am to be judged according to my choices. So, one could say in answer to your question, “because He said so,” and be right.

But that wouldn’t be to say that it doesn’t cause me to bend mental pretzels trying to make sense of it.

To get to what I believe is the bottom of it for me when I’m in doubt, however, the question has to be (if it’s either or as we humans always want it to be) “in what world would I be most comfortable; one in which God is in full control, or one in which I am?”

That’s an easy question for me to answer.

Romans 9 answers this, but we don't like the answer.

That’s the cool thing tho; you don’t have to .

So it’s not good enough for ‘you’ to just believe what ‘you’ choose. You also don’t want others to believe what ‘you’ don’t want them to. Got it.

You quote John 3:16 all the time. It’s one of the most widely quoted and famous Bible verses. It’s been called the "Gospel in a nutshell" because it summarizes the central theme of following Jesus.

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believed in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

To me, ”whosoever” means just that.

It doesn’t say ‘whosoever I predetermined.’

I have to base everything I believe on scripture. Scripture indicates God chose us, so I believe in predestination. Wabi, you should have posted the next few scriptures. The next 2 scriptures after your posted Romans 8:28 seem to confirm this.

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of the Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Romans 8:30
And those He PREDESTINED, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

Romans 8:31
If God is for us, who can be against us?

Ephesians 1:5
He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus, in accordance with His pleasure and will.

Ephesians 1:11
In Him, we were also CHOSEN, having been PREDESTINED according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will.

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him and will raise him up at the last day.

God knows in advance which dogs are going to return to their own vomit. God also has known before the foundation of the earth who is His and who isn’t.

How does one know? If you believe, you are; if you don’t believe, you’re not.

I've struggled with that part of Romans. Jacob have I loved, & Esau have I hated. I've come to belief He's talking in a spiritual sense. He'll have mercy on who He choses. He hardened pharaohs heart to show His power. I don't believe in Calvinism though. It goes against to much scripture. Also doesn't match God's characteristics as I read & understand Him. You folks have a blessed evening.

I thought the romans us the ones that kilt the Jesus.

Interesting question there, but it provokes a question of my own: exactly WHO is "chosen in him before the foundation of the world," each individual, or a group that was going to come to be in the future?

My own position is that God already knows the outcome simply because He is God, but allows us to choose our own paths to our destinations which are chosen via free will. On the other hand, I do believe there are or can be "waypoints" in our lives that cannot be evaded (re: Jonah).

The book of Jonah is interesting because Jonah was not able to evade his mission in Nineveh, but the mission was seemingly to warn others that they must make a choice. I think that tickles the mind a bit.

Thanks all good folks, this is a good thread, I'm learning.

I believe you’re missing the point good sir.

That is that it matters not what you or I believe. If I believe I can fly does that mean I could go to a high spot, jump off and do so?

Our belief (mine isn’t any more important than yours) has no bearing upon determining what is true.

That was my point. This stuff is “Soli deo gloria” no matter how vehemently the Adam in us may object.

According to the Scriptures natural man is blind concerning the things of salvation and his heart is depraved as a result of Adam’s sin which is ours as “mankind”. The Spirit opens our eyes to see Christ and His gracious offer of righteousness in God’s eyes as a result of His active & passive obedience, death, and resurrection. He also allows us to see ourselves as we truly are, moving us to our knees in humble subservience and service due to the gratitude this grace inevitably engenders in us.

This is the beauty of the Gospel that “while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us...”

We are far, far, worse off then we could possibly imagine but God is far, far, far more gracious than we could fathom too.

So “whosoever” will come are in fact those whom God has predestined.

We can choose to do bad or good. If good, we should take the credit; if bad, we must accept responsibility. Of course, there may also be those times that stuff just happens. When we experience bad stuff, we are not being punished here on Earth. When we experience good stuff, we are not being rewarded either unless the good stuff is a direct result of our efforts. Middle Eastern peoples are usually strong believers in preordained life. This is a handy excuse for human failings. GD

Perhaps to some. To those who recognize their depravity and God’s Grace toward them in spite of that it is a source of unspeakable gratitude.

Me earning what I get is most definitely NOT good news. That’d be horribly bad news, at least if the scriptures are tue.

I'll just put this in if I may?