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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,499
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,499 |
Had JeS do one for me last year. Rem 700 243 sps is now a 18.5 “ barreled 358. Duracoated the entire action, barrel and bolt. Anything east of the Mississippi it’s my go to. Out west where things might go longish it’s not my first choice but I wouldn’t just stay home is that was all I had.
MM
PS. It’s a shooter as per norm for the work JES does.
Tell me the odds of putting grease on the same pancake? I Know they are there, well ice and house slippers. -Kawi
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,531
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 1,531 |
What twist rate are you going with? I had my .358 done with a 1 in 12" so it would shoot the heavier bullets well. I shot 3 Hornady 250 gr Spirepoints into one single hole that we only about .380" edge to edge. Now that I have to use non-lead bullets here is CA, it shoots both the 225 gr and 200 gr TTSX bullets very well. I used John Barsness's loads with TAC that closely approximate .35 Whelen factory loads.
Most loading data for the .358 is kept low due to some lever actions like the Win 88 and Savage 99 being made in that chambering. A strong bolt action can go hotter. I used mine in Africa on plains game including kudu and Wildebeest. I never asked about twist, guess he'll go with std twist, whatever that is. I'm not trying to go heavy as those bullets are pretty slow, probably mostly shoot 180's and 200's. BTW, what is the std. .358 Win twist? DF Edited to add, found this link https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5220834/I'll need to find out what twists he does. I guess it's a choice between 12 and 14. We'll see what he says. Don't limit yourself twist wise. Go 1:12. It will still do well with lighter bullets. That's what I had my gun smith do with my 9.3x62. I shoot 270 grain Speers in it for deer but if I want to shoot something heavier I'm confident it will stabilize them. If you want to shoot 180s-200s just make ot a .300 WSM or a .338 something. Otherwise you're missing the point of a .358. Agree with 12 twist and that's what I told JES in an email. He gets the barreled action tomorrow. DF Great, enjoy your beautiful rifle.
What goes up must come down, what goes around comes around, there's no free lunch. Trump's comin' back, get over it!
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,301
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,301 |
What twist rate are you going with? I had my .358 done with a 1 in 12" so it would shoot the heavier bullets well. I shot 3 Hornady 250 gr Spirepoints into one single hole that we only about .380" edge to edge. Now that I have to use non-lead bullets here is CA, it shoots both the 225 gr and 200 gr TTSX bullets very well. I used John Barsness's loads with TAC that closely approximate .35 Whelen factory loads.
Most loading data for the .358 is kept low due to some lever actions like the Win 88 and Savage 99 being made in that chambering. A strong bolt action can go hotter. I used mine in Africa on plains game including kudu and Wildebeest. I never asked about twist, guess he'll go with std twist, whatever that is. I'm not trying to go heavy as those bullets are pretty slow, probably mostly shoot 180's and 200's. BTW, what is the std. .358 Win twist? DF Edited to add, found this link https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5220834/I'll need to find out what twists he does. I guess it's a choice between 12 and 14. We'll see what he says. Don't limit yourself twist wise. Go 1:12. It will still do well with lighter bullets. That's what I had my gun smith do with my 9.3x62. I shoot 270 grain Speers in it for deer but if I want to shoot something heavier I'm confident it will stabilize them. If you want to shoot 180s-200s just make ot a .300 WSM or a .338 something. Otherwise you're missing the point of a .358. I did a 1-10 9.3 and it shoots like crazy. No harm in turning them big devils.
Semper Fi
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097 |
What twist rate are you going with? I had my .358 done with a 1 in 12" so it would shoot the heavier bullets well. I shot 3 Hornady 250 gr Spirepoints into one single hole that we only about .380" edge to edge. Now that I have to use non-lead bullets here is CA, it shoots both the 225 gr and 200 gr TTSX bullets very well. I used John Barsness's loads with TAC that closely approximate .35 Whelen factory loads.
Most loading data for the .358 is kept low due to some lever actions like the Win 88 and Savage 99 being made in that chambering. A strong bolt action can go hotter. I used mine in Africa on plains game including kudu and Wildebeest. I never asked about twist, guess he'll go with std twist, whatever that is. I'm not trying to go heavy as those bullets are pretty slow, probably mostly shoot 180's and 200's. BTW, what is the std. .358 Win twist? DF Edited to add, found this link https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5220834/I'll need to find out what twists he does. I guess it's a choice between 12 and 14. We'll see what he says. Don't limit yourself twist wise. Go 1:12. It will still do well with lighter bullets. That's what I had my gun smith do with my 9.3x62. I shoot 270 grain Speers in it for deer but if I want to shoot something heavier I'm confident it will stabilize them. If you want to shoot 180s-200s just make ot a .300 WSM or a .338 something. Otherwise you're missing the point of a .358. I did a 1-10 9.3 and it shoots like crazy. No harm in turning them big devils. I don't plan to use 250's in the .358 Win, as IMO, there are better options for that round. I think 250's would be a better choice for 35 Whelen, etc., rounds with more powder capacity. I think 12 twist will spin 225's and lighter fast enough. DF
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,301
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,301 |
What twist rate are you going with? I had my .358 done with a 1 in 12" so it would shoot the heavier bullets well. I shot 3 Hornady 250 gr Spirepoints into one single hole that we only about .380" edge to edge. Now that I have to use non-lead bullets here is CA, it shoots both the 225 gr and 200 gr TTSX bullets very well. I used John Barsness's loads with TAC that closely approximate .35 Whelen factory loads.
Most loading data for the .358 is kept low due to some lever actions like the Win 88 and Savage 99 being made in that chambering. A strong bolt action can go hotter. I used mine in Africa on plains game including kudu and Wildebeest. I never asked about twist, guess he'll go with std twist, whatever that is. I'm not trying to go heavy as those bullets are pretty slow, probably mostly shoot 180's and 200's. BTW, what is the std. .358 Win twist? DF Edited to add, found this link https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/5220834/I'll need to find out what twists he does. I guess it's a choice between 12 and 14. We'll see what he says. Don't limit yourself twist wise. Go 1:12. It will still do well with lighter bullets. That's what I had my gun smith do with my 9.3x62. I shoot 270 grain Speers in it for deer but if I want to shoot something heavier I'm confident it will stabilize them. If you want to shoot 180s-200s just make ot a .300 WSM or a .338 something. Otherwise you're missing the point of a .358. I did a 1-10 9.3 and it shoots like crazy. No harm in turning them big devils. I don't plan to use 250's in the .358 Win, as IMO, there are better options for that round. I think 250's would be a better choice for 35 Whelen, etc., rounds with more powder capacity. I think 12 twist will spin 225's and lighter fast enough. DF For sure DF. We are all probably in nearly the same boat that we have 20 rifles for 20 different things we have in our brain. 12 will work excellent though.
Semper Fi
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,610
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,610 |
Yep 12" twist will be gtg. My BLR is 12 and M70 is 14. 250 grain does fine in my 14" twist.
Shew me thy ways, O LORD: teach me thy paths.
"there are few better cartridges on Earth than the 7 x 57mm Mauser"
"the .30 Springfield is light, accurate, penetrating, and has surprising stopping power"
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097 |
Thinking about loads for the .358 Win. I've had great results with the CEB Raptor bullets, esp. the 135 gr. out of my .308. See this link and my report. https://cuttingedgebullets.com/308-135gr-er-extended-range-raptorWhat about pushing a CEB 150 gr. Raptor out of the .358 Win at really high speeds, like 3,000 fps +.? Speer shows their 158 gr. JHP pistol bullet at 2,888 fps over 48 gr. RL-7 I think the tougher, more streamlined 150 gr. Raptor would be a screaming machine at hyper velocity. https://cuttingedgebullets.com/338-150gr-er-extended-range-raptorThen, there's the CEB 160 gr. .358, another choice. https://cuttingedgebullets.com/358-160gr-er-extended-range-raptorCEB's are expensive, but how many does one actually shoot at game? Practice with cheaper stuff, save high priced bullets for critters. More Loony stuff... DF
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,301
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,301 |
I bet they’d be screamers!
The 178 Shock Hammer might be something as well for typical 358 sorta work.
Semper Fi
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097 |
I bet they’d be screamers!
The 178 Shock Hammer might be something as well for typical 358 sorta work. May check those out. Just no load data. I think one could start with 52 gr TAC, max 180 gr load, to try with 150 or 160 gr bullets, chrono. and adjust. I think 3 K fps and more should be obtainable without pressure signs. Based on what I’ve seen CEB Raptors do, those loads should be dynamite on hogs and deer. DF
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,301
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,301 |
I’d bet so. They’d have to be dynamite with all of that frontal area touching down.
Semper Fi
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097 |
I just read on line (makes it true, of course) that the JES 3 groove doesn't build pressure like conventional rifling, less friction. Reportedly it gives up to 100 fps extra. Now, that sounds pretty good. Too good? Hmmm... Anyone with info to confirm or refute that claim? It also seems that a couple of top powders are RL-10 and TAC. I have both, of course...  One poster said the 160 CEB Raptor can be driven 3K fps out of a 22" bbl. Claimed very broad and deep wounding, "almost too much for small deer and hogs"... His opinion, 200 SP and 225 NPT were the "sweet spots" for the .358 Win. Will check those out. I'm excited about this round. It may be my most versatile round, handling cast and jacketed pistol bullets all the way up to serious heavies. I have three scopes in the shop, all with Weaver rings. I'm thinking about having at least two, maybe all three sighted for different type loads, just swap them out instead of re-sighting for different type rounds. Two 4200 Bushnells, (3-9x40 and 2.5-10x50), a Leupold VX-3 1.5-5x20. Interesting possibilities. The 4200's tend to have shorter ER's, maybe not the best option for hard kicking rounds. Not sure how hard this rifle is gonna kick with heavy bullets. It will be relatively light weight, so we'll just have to see how it "shakes out". DF
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,301
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,301 |
Not sure how well the 3 groove compares to the others but all of mine are 3 grooves and attain normal speeds with no fuss. They’ve been pretty easy barrels to get smoothed out as well DF. I’ve literally just shot them and once they hit around 50-75 rounds I’ll clean em down to steel and DBC them. After that life has been pretty easy.
I think you’d be hard pressed to find a Bullet that doesn’t work well in a 358 for deer. It just doesn’t have the juice to tear most of them apart like a Whelen or bigger magnum could. The lighter bullets seem pretty neat though. I wouldn’t mind trying a few thru my 358, just for grins.
Semper Fi
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097 |
I just sent an email to CEB, asking for info on terminal performance, their 150 and 160 Raptors in the .358 Win, quoting the source noted above regarding "almost too much for small deer and hogs". I reminded them about my review of their 135 gr. .308 ER Raptor with pictures.
I also asked if they had feedback from their customers regarding those two bullets in .358 Win and/or .35 Whelen.
We'll report any info they send.
DF
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Joined: Nov 2003
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,610 |
Good idea using multiple scopes. That's what I did for my BLR since I am using cast and jacketed so I don't have to resight when the mood strikes to change. 
Shew me thy ways, O LORD: teach me thy paths.
"there are few better cartridges on Earth than the 7 x 57mm Mauser"
"the .30 Springfield is light, accurate, penetrating, and has surprising stopping power"
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097 |
Loony issues: Of the three scopes mentioned, I'm thinking one for high performance hunting loads with 200 and 225 SP's, 225 NPT's, then one for pistol bullet loads, maybe one for light, fast CEB 150 & 160 gr Raptors, 180 gr. Speers... Matching scope per load category, the Leupold with longer ER for the kickers makes sense, but it won't pick up light like the 4200's, especially the 2.5-10x50, which would be hard to beat in dim light. Hmmm... Maybe over thinking this, but what's new about that.... This is the Fire, after all... DF
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097 |
From CEB: We have several customers using the 150gr and 160gr Raptors in their .35Cal rifles. We have a crew who took them moose hunting and fully expected them to fail. They performed well beyond what they could’ve ever imagined. Each member of the crew brought home a moose. We have not received any of their personal load data but I attached here what we’ve sent to them in the past. All loads shown are MAX loads. Let me know if you have any other questions. Thanks! Nikki Hampton Croasmun Customer Service/Inside Sales Representative 75 Basin Run Road Drifting, PA 16834 Office: (814)345-6690 ext 304 Cell: 814-592-6543 nikki  cuttingedgebullets.com They sent QL data for the 150 and 160 Raptors... The max was around 2,800 for both, in fact the 160 edged the 150. RL-7 at or near the top of the list. If the 160 runs as fast as the 150, why go there? DF
Last edited by Dirtfarmer; 09/03/20.
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,301
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 15,301 |
That sounds like you're going to have some fun DF! I'd bet your rifle is probably on it's way back to you by now.
Can't wait to see it all set up.
Semper Fi
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097 |
Cartridge : .358 Win.
Bullet : .358, 150, CutEdge-ER E150 RAPTOR
Useable Case Capaci: 43.557 grain H2O = 2.828 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.615 inch = 66.42 mm
Barrel Length : 22.0 inch = 558.8 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 51397 psi, or 354 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 106 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
68 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Ramshot X-Terminator 106.0 45.6 2.95 2820 93.0 49780 5693 0.983
Alliant Reloder- 7 105.4 40.9 2.65 2801 97.9 51398 5276 0.987 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 100.3 36.9 2.39 2777 99.7 51398 4908 0.977 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 92.5 34.7 2.25 2773 98.1 51398 5165 0.980 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 93.3 40.3 2.61 2766 95.0 51398 5208 0.985 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2219 106.0 44.0 2.85 2763 92.0 47146 5566 1.003
Accurate 2200 104.9 42.8 2.77 2762 91.0 51398 5311 0.985 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 98.8 36.3 2.35 2747 99.2 51398 4829 0.983 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 106.0 46.4 3.01 2744 90.1 46419 5594 1.013
Hodgdon H4198 105.5 39.8 2.58 2729 93.2 51398 5006 0.988 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 106.0 38.9 2.52 2719 99.8 45381 4854 1.025
Vihtavuori N110 95.1 32.4 2.10 2697 100.0 51398 4166 1.001 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4198 106.0 38.2 2.47 2692 96.8 44714 5035 1.028
Alliant Reloder-10x 106.0 40.2 2.60 2662 94.6 39762 5338 1.081
Accurate 2230 106.0 45.6 2.96 2628 86.1 41724 5196 1.069
Ramshot TAC 106.0 45.6 2.95 2608 83.8 40593 5264 1.078
Hodgdon H322 106.0 41.3 2.68 2582 88.5 38131 5183 1.099
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097 |
Cartridge : .35 Whelen
Bullet : .358, 160, CutEdge-ER E160 CU RAPTOR
Useable Case Capaci: 56.706 grain H2O = 3.682 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.084 inch = 78.33 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch = 609.6 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 50763 psi, or 350 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 100 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
77 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 90%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Hodgdon H335 98.5 56.2 3.64 2988 96.9 50763 6621 1.036 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot X-Terminator 96.0 53.7 3.48 2979 97.7 50763 6493 1.042 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder-10x 100.0 49.3 3.20 2929 99.5 47997 6172 1.074
IMR 4198 99.9 46.8 3.03 2925 100.0 50763 5723 1.037 ! Near Maximum !
ADI AR 2210 97.9 52.8 3.42 2916 95.0 50763 6249 1.051 ! Near Maximum !
Alliant Reloder- 7 94.5 47.8 3.10 2909 99.9 50763 5786 1.059 ! Near Maximum !
Ramshot TAC 100.0 56.0 3.63 2906 93.0 46995 6518 1.074
Winchester 748 100.0 56.3 3.65 2891 93.0 44504 6611 1.090
Vihtavuori N120 98.1 46.8 3.03 2887 100.0 50763 5265 1.054 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 90.0 43.1 2.79 2872 100.0 50763 5288 1.048 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 95.5 46.9 3.04 2869 97.5 50763 5720 1.050 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H322 100.0 50.7 3.29 2867 96.5 44147 6275 1.095
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,097 |
Cartridge : .358 Win.
Bullet : .358, 160, CutEdge-ER E160 CU RAPTOR
Useable Case Capaci: 45.922 grain H2O = 2.982 cm³
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.614 inch = 66.40 mm
Barrel Length : 26.0 inch = 660.4 mm
Predicted Data for Indicated Charges of the Following Powders.
Matching Maximum Pressure: 55398 psi, or 381 MPa
or a maximum loading ratio or filling of 105 %
These calculations refer to your specified settings in QuickLOAD 'Cartridge Dimensions' window.
C A U T I O N : any load listed can result in a powder charge that falls below minimum suggested
loads or exceeds maximum suggested loads as presented in current handloading manuals. Understand
that all of the listed powders can be unsuitable for the given combination of cartridge, bullet
and gun. Actual load order can vary, depending upon lot-to-lot powder and component variations.
USE ONLY FOR COMPARISON !
92 loads produced a Loading Ratio below user-defined minimum of 85%. These powders have been skipped.
Powder type Filling/Loading Ratio Charge Charge Vel. Prop.Burnt P max P muzz B_Time
% Grains Gramm fps % psi psi ms
--------------------------------- -----------------------------------------------------------------
Alliant Reloder-7 104.2 42.7 2.77 2892 99.7 55398 4504 1.100 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 2200 103.9 44.7 2.89 2874 95.1 55398 4705 1.096 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H335 105.0 48.5 3.14 2872 94.8 50223 4991 1.121 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 5744 90.0 36.5 2.36 2870 99.8 55398 4457 1.092 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N125 102.3 40.3 2.61 2869 100.0 55398 4084 1.097 ! Near Maximum !
Accurate 1680 95.3 42.1 2.73 2869 98.0 55398 4541 1.097 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4227 99.4 38.5 2.49 2855 100.0 55398 4114 1.093 ! Near Maximum !
Hodgdon H4198 104.8 41.7 2.70 2834 96.7 55398 4397 1.100 ! Near Maximum !
IMR 4227 98.1 38.0 2.46 2831 100.0 55398 4083 1.098 ! Near Maximum !
Vihtavuori N120 105.0 40.6 2.63 2801 100.0 49617 4041 1.140
IMR 4198 105.0 39.9 2.58 2789 99.2 48029 4339 1.145
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