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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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If you're asking about the walls themselves, they came from a trading post dating to 1843 supposedly. Kit Carson fought a bunch of Kiowas, Comanches and Lipan Apaches there in 1864. Then the battle you're talking about occurred in 1874. The walls had been taken over by the Dodge City hide-merchant, Charlie Rath, who was operating a supply store there. A couple of outbuildings and a corral were there and there were a bunch of raw hides stacked around it. The buildings were sod. A main support log in the general store cracked in the middle of the night and a bunch of the hunters got up and replaced it. They were up when the contingent of Kiowas, Comanches, Cheyennes and Arapahos attacked. Otherwise they'd probably have been slaughtered. Billy Dixon had lost his gun crossing a flooded creek before the fight began. I believe it was in one of his hide wagons which floated off. It was either a 44-90 or 44-77 Sharps, IIRC. The 50-90 Sharps he made the shot with was indeed a borrowed gun. ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/37RdwHn.jpg) Rath also had another store / trading post not far from the Ranch here. It was called Rath City. Within view of the Double Mountains, of the Double Mountain Fork of the Brazos River which I can see from the back porch. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rath_City,_Texas https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/entries/rath-city-txI have turkey hunted in that very area many times over the years. Haven’t been back since the fires moved through that area. I looked forward to it every year and I do miss going there. Sammy Baugh had a ranch not too far away from the area. If I recall correctly, Sammy still holds the NFL record for points scored in a single game. I believe that he scored 6 touchdowns and he also kicked the extra points. That feat was overshadowed by another event that happened that very same day which was on December 7, 1941. I believe that most of that is correct. Yep. Slinging Sammy Baugh. One of the greatest QB’s to ever play the game! His Ranch is The Double Mountain Ranch. I believe his son runs it now. I believe Sammy passed away in a nursing home in Snyder. He lived to be a ripe old age and was known as a Gentleman and a generous Man. I do love that part of the world.
The degree of my privacy is no business of yours.
What we've learned from history is that we haven't learned from it.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Isa Tai was the medicine man of the band that came to Adobe Walls, if I’m remembering correctly. Dixon’s shot pretty much ended the battle, as the Comanche band didn’t have much faith in the medicine of Isa Tai to begin with. They didn’t stick around to take more casualties.
If you’re interested in Comanches, this book is my favorite.
T.R. Fehrenbach
Comanches: The History of a People
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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If you’re interested in Comanches, this book is my favorite.
T.R. Fehrenbach
Comanches: The History of a People ^^^👍🏻^^^
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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I've got Fehrenbach's Lone Star: A HIstory of the Texas and the Texans.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I've got Fehrenbach's Lone Star: A HIstory of the Texas and the Texans. Thats one I really enjoyed as well.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Pekka Hamalienen in his recent "Comanche Empire" had it that the Comanches were trading horses and mules to Americans on a scale unprecedented in history. Certainly the popular stories of rapine and pillage were most all true, but there was apparently a whole 'nother side to the Comanches generally overlooked: Pragmatic businessmen, which is why them trading cattle on a large scale to the Army in New Mexico in '73 was not unprecedented.
A whole bunch of trade by Mexicans to the Americans too. In 1840 when the residents of Linnville on the Texas Coast saw a herd of 2,000 horses approaching. They assumed it was another bunch of Mexican traders en route to the US. In fact it was Comanches and Kiowas driving that stock during their Great Comanche Raid. But the Linnville people were almost right, that herd had been stolen outside of Victoria, from Mexican traders en route to Louisiana.
Likewise Olmstead, in 1857, observed herds of Mexican horses and mules driven regularly up for trade in San Antonio and beyond, by Mexicans.
And then there were the hundreds of Mexican carretas (ox carts) and their poorly-armed owners, regularly creeping across the plains at around five to ten miles a day, throughout that whole period. Early Texas commerce rolled on Mexican ox carts, which is why the Texas Rangers responded so swiftly when certain Anglo residents of Victoria took up piracy in 1857 (AKA The Cart War). Them thieves were stepping on the wealthy merchants' toes.
Josiah Gregg on his last trip to Santa Fe (1838-39 I think) anyway the basically followed the Canadian west instead of the usual Santa Fe trail route. They stayed with the Comanches about a week or so! There is a reference to his demonstrating his Colt’s repeating pistol to a Comanche chief somewhere in the vicinity of the 100th Meridian after crossing into " Mexican” territory. Gregg unholstered and showed the chief the gun then fired several shots in rapid succession. He mentioned the chief caught on to his demonstration and took his bow and shot just as many arrows in just as many seconds! Ya, accounts say Plains Indians fired from a bow held horizontal and fired by "feel" or "instinct" rather than sighting down the arrow. Texas Ranger Captain RIP Ford in his memoirs places the bow and revolver on a rough parity, An Indian on a running horse could put multiple arrows into the air in quick succession and hit your horse or you at 100 yards. Ford specifies that at 60 yards or more, if you witnessed the Indian in the act of loosing the arrow, an active man could dodge. Less than 60 yards or if you weren't looking, no so much. IMHO the impact of the revolver on Plains combat is way overblown. 50% odds aren't very good for a career Ranger, and the big problem was getting within range of a fleeing Indian with anything, let alone a handgun. The rifle ruled the Plains, what you did is get within range, dismount, and shoot the other guy off his horse. Another thing about the Walker...many state that it was very accurate and could hit at great distances. They were also about as powerful as some of the rifles of the era...certainly not as powerful as all of them, but... ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/5MZTv5F.jpg)
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Most interesting thread here.
IIRC, Quanah Parker was the son of a white captive woman, Cynthia Parker.
I did not know about Sammy Baugh being a rancher near the Double Mountain area. I've passed through there a few times, most recently to associate with the southwestern 24hcf gathering in Arizona. I had no idea the persona of Gus McRae was based on Sammy Baugh.
What's really interesting is that Gus McRae and Woodrow Call and the Lonesome Dove story are based loosely on the story of Oliver Loving and Charles Goodnight. They partnered up to drive cattle up to New Mexico and Colorado. Loving died much as Gus died as depicted in Lonesome Dove, except it all took place along the Pecos River. Goodnight was pretty much devastated and IF I recall correctly took Loving's body back to Weatherford, Texas to be buried.
If I recall another bit of history correctly, Goodnight had made friends with Quanah Parker who gave blessing to Goodnight's desire to ranch the Palo Duro Canyon.
I'm not 1% the scholar Birdie and KW are and never will be, but there's enough Texas history to keep the most casual student of history very, very busy.
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
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A passage from Billy Dixon's memoirs still sticks with me. The tragic story about William Olds and his wife who went to Adobe Walls to start a restaurant in the rear of Rath & Wright's store and got caught up in the battle. During the siege, William Olds was climbing down a ladder with his rifle and accidentally blew the top of his head off right in front of Mrs. Olds and Dixon.
Damn. That just sucks.
Last edited by Morewood; 09/22/20. Reason: because
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Most interesting thread here.
IIRC, Quanah Parker was the son of a white captive woman, Cynthia Parker.
I did not know about Sammy Baugh being a rancher near the Double Mountain area. I've passed through there a few times, most recently to associate with the southwestern 24hcf gathering in Arizona. I had no idea the persona of Gus McRae was based on Sammy Baugh.
What's really interesting is that Gus McRae and Woodrow Call and the Lonesome Dove story are based loosely on the story of Oliver Loving and Charles Goodnight. They partnered up to drive cattle up to New Mexico and Colorado. Loving died much as Gus died as depicted in Lonesome Dove, except mit all took place along the Pecos River. Goodnight was pretty much devastated and IF I recall correctly took Loving's body back to Weatherford, Texas to be buried.
If I recall another bit of history correctly, Goodnight had made friends with Quanah Parker who gave blessing to Goodnight's desire to ranch the Palo Duro Canyon.
I'm not 1% the scholar Birdie and KW are and never will be, but there's enough Texas history to keep the most casual student of history very, very busy. You are exactly correct. I first read of Cynthia Ann Parker in a short narrative "Me Cynthia Ann" detailing her story of being re-patriated to her relatives after the Texas Rangers attacked the Comanche village where she lived after being taken captive in central Texas many years before. The story is in J. Frank Dobie's book, On the Open Range, which my Grandmother gave me years ago. It is one of my most treasured possessions though sadly, in bad shape after me reading the tales aloud to my own children, over and over again. My son especially, enjoyed them. Cynthia Ann was married to Peta Nocona, a big Chief amongst the Nokoni. The Nokoni band was decimated at the Pease River after the Texas Rangers followed them there after the Nokonis raided Parker County again in 1860. Quanah later stated that Peta was not present at the Pease River fight and died around 1863 never having regained his full health after a fight with Apaches.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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A passage from Billy Dixon's memoirs still sticks with me. A tragic story about William Olds and his wife who went to Adobe Walls to start a restaurant in the rear of Rath & Wright's store. During the siege William Olds was climbing down a ladder with his rifle and accidentally blew the top of his head off right in front of Mrs. Olds and Dixon. A couple of brothers IIRC, were sleeping in their wagon on the outer grounds of the Walls when the Indians struck. The Indians quickly dispatched them, but their dog, IIRC a big one. I can't recall the breed for sure. Possibly a Great Pyranees. Anyway, their dog defended the brothers' bodies so fiercely the Indians couldn't readily get near them to scalp them. They killed the dog and took a "scalp" from its body also, as a show of respect to the brave animal.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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It is worth saying that the hunters were on Indian land illegally. Everything south of the Arkansas River in Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas, was the province of the Indians, by Treaty. The hunters supposedly had a "wink-and-nod" agreement with the commander of Fort Dodge to cross the river and hunt in Indian Territory...which they had already been doing down quite a ways south of Dodge City, already even into Texas, but not as far south as the Walls. The hunters had decimated the herds that far north though, by the end of 1873 and had to go into hostile territory to continue the slaughter. The Army, of course, wanted this in order to deprive the hostile bands of their source of food and force them onto the reservation at Fort Sill. The hunters were competitive with each other, but also moved south in-force, banded loosely together for self-preservation. All these actions resulted in the Red River War which ended with the subjugation of the southern Plains tribes.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Mid-1870s photo: ![[Linked Image from upload.wikimedia.org]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Bison_skull_pile_edit.jpg/767px-Bison_skull_pile_edit.jpg)
Don't be the darkness.
America will perish while those who should be standing guard are satisfying their lusts.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I've seen this photo many times and it kinda pisses me off to see all the bison heads in a pile.It's kinda unbelievable just how big those herds were.One can only imagine the Indians thoughs on such a massacre of their staple food supply.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
As Bob Hagel would say"You should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everything goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong."Good words of wisdom...............
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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In Lonesome Dove, Gus and Lorie spent the night at the Walls after he rescued her from Blue Duck and the renegade Kiowas. Yep. They played poker. 🤠 How bout a 'poke' darlin... ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/2ZNeG9vh.jpg) ![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/PcQ9vgxh.jpg)
Coyotes shot no waiting.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Nice guns. Colt stainless re-issue?
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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What caliber Sharps? 45-110?
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Yep 2nd Gen Stainless reissue the Sharps is a 45-110 I also have one in 45-70 both Quigley's. Id like to eventually pick up a Sharps in 50-90
Coyotes shot no waiting.
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
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Had a Billy Dixon shoot four years ago. Three full size mounted rider silhouettes at 1500 yards. I got three hits with eight shots in a strong cross wind. .45-70, black powder, iron sights. Didn't need no stinkin' sniper rifle. My one moment of shooting glory, kinda sorta.
Paul Dang. Nice shootin', Paul.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I've seen this photo many times and it kinda pisses me off to see all the bison heads in a pile.It's kinda unbelievable just how big those herds were.One can only imagine the Indians thoughs on such a massacre of their staple food supply. While hide hunters had their hey-day, and certainly made some impact, they were not the sole- or even probably the ultimate cause in the loss of the buffalo. The final decimation - well- extinction, really- of the so called Northern Herd, and likely that of the Southern Herd, was due to disease. Wilthin a year of the first Texas cattle driven into Montana, possibly a million buffs died of tick fever introduced by those cattle. NP shipping records show no increase in hide shipments, yet in the space of two years, the vast Northern Herd was eliminated, and the prairie littered with skeletons. The southern herd was not so documented, but it most likely happened at least in part there also. I believe the picture was taken of bone collector efforts after the big die-off. All those collected skeletons and heads were shipped east to use in refining sugar, IIRC.
Last edited by las; 09/23/20.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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