I grow weary of politics these days and I know there are a bunch of history buffs that cruise this forum. Tell me what you've learned about this lonely outpost named Adobe Walls.
I just finished "The Life and Times of Billy Dixon" Good read if you like that genre as I do.
28 buffalo hunters vs 700 Comanche, Kiowa, and Cheyenne pissed because they're killing off the buffalo. It was a life or death battle. According to witnesses Billy Dixon shot an Indian off his horse at 1200 yards with a .50 Sharps.
Billy Dixon had shot Isa-tai himself. When the Comanches saw what happened they lost their taste for Adobe Walls. Two weeks after Billy Dixon took his lucky shot U.S. army surveyors measured the distance at an unbelievable 1,538 yards—seven eights of a mile.
Adobe Walls was made of just that, adobe. It has weathered away so that nothing can be seen on Google Earth. Too bad. I too like studying 19th century American history. I have also driven near the area several times but never stopped to investigate. From the looks of the photo in the OP, I haven't missed much.
I have read that Dixon was not shooting his own rifle. It was a new one that had been shipped in for somebody. He later said that the shot was just a lucky one.
The site was originally built in 1843 by Bent St. Vrain and Company as a trading post but the Indians were hostile most of the time it was in operation. Bent blew it up and left Texas in 1849.
Kit Carson led US troops there and fought a battle with Indians in 1864. The second battle was the one Dixon was at in 1874.
There are lots of articles and a few books about the fight in 1874 and various accounts give the range of the shot at from 1000 yards to 1538 yards. Dixon said he shot from a rock outcropping that was used frequently in shooting contests.
Um.... some degree of twaddle in pop Texas history.
The FIRST battle of Adobe Walls was in the winter of 1862 (??) when Kit Carson went against the Kiowa and Comanche camps in the area with US Cavalry. Coulda been another Little Big Horn disaster but Carson knew his business and extricated his men before they could be wiped out by far superior numbers.
The real significance of this fight was that the Indian camps were surrounded by large herds of cattle. The Kiowa and Comanches got into cattle rustling and herding in a big way beginning about 1860 in response to the decline of the Buffalo herds subsequent to a catastrophic drought in the 1850’s and the continued spread of feral cattle, which carried diseases lethal to Buffalo.
Ten years later, by the Red River War, most Comanches were ranching in Oklahoma, to the tune of trading 30,000 head of cattle to the US Army in New Mexico in 1873, one year before that skirmish at Adobe Walls.
By the summer of 1874 those Comanches still out were the radical fringe, including many young men looking to gain war honors in ways that herding cattle didn’t provide.
Out of desperation this forlorn minority of Comanche and Kiowa Traditionalists actually held a Northern Plains style Sun Dance, a thing foreign to their cultures.
Pumped up with spiritual derring-do, and Isa-Tai’s bullet proof promise, they debated what to do next. Quanah Parker wanted to go nail the coffin on their dreaded, feared and almost extinct enemies the Tonkawas, who even then were still chowing down on Comanches while leading Ranald MacKenzie down on them.
Parker was overruled, and it was decided to go sweep the Plains of Whites instead. Stop #1 was Adobe Walls, but there weren’t anything like 700 Indian warriors in that whole Traditionalist faction.
We all know how the second battle of Adobe Walls turned out, a skirmish really. What is generally not mentioned is that Indian casualties were also light and the many survivors went on to wreak havoc across the Plains that summer.
MacKenzie, guided by the Tonks, captured the women and children of those still out, bringing an end to hostilities. It was a gentle and highly respected German horticulturalist, JJ “ Doc” Sturm who had been in contact with the Comanche since the Brazos Reserve days twenty years earlier, who was sent out by MacKenzie to lead the wary and distrustful hostiles in. A White guy they trusted implicitly.
Quanah was able to slip so quickly and easily into ranching because most Comanches had already been doing that for years. Isa-Tai became a rival politician in tribal elections.
...and that’s how the story ends we’re told, a few grey Federales say, we coulda had them any day, we only let them slip away, out of kindness I suppose....
Billy Dixon had shot Isa-tai himself. When the Comanches saw what happened they lost their taste for Adobe Walls. Two weeks after Billy Dixon took his lucky shot U.S. army surveyors measured the distance at an unbelievable 1,538 yards—seven eights of a mile.
Thanks, Birdy. Sometime please give us the story of Jim Bowie and his marriage to the chiefs daughter and his stealing of their gold, or was it silver, and his flight to the Blockhouse on Calf Creek.
Also, did the indians chase him to the Alamo where we know he died.
Also, how about sometimes giving us the lowdown on the Battle of Calf Creek?
....According to witnesses Billy Dixon shot an Indian off his horse at 1200 yards with a .50 Sharps. ...
To recognise that it was his horse at 1200 yards is pretty amazing. (sorry, couldn't resist)
It weren’t Isa-Tai but some unlucky Comanche what got hit. The Comanches might still recall who he’s was but if so, they ain’t telling.
Dixon was able to make that shot, which he with characteristic modesty called a scratch (ie. lucky) shot because he and some others had been lobbing shots at the rocks on that distant bluff for bragging rights in the days previous, hence he had the exact range.
It may have been a lucky shot, but not all that much luck was needed givenBilly Dixon’s skill with a rifle.
Had a Billy Dixon shoot four years ago. Three full size mounted rider silhouettes at 1500 yards. I got three hits with eight shots in a strong cross wind. .45-70, black powder, iron sights. Didn't need no stinkin' sniper rifle. My one moment of shooting glory, kinda sorta.
If you're asking about the walls themselves, they came from a trading post dating to 1843 supposedly. Kit Carson fought a bunch of Kiowas, Comanches and Lipan Apaches there in 1864. Then the battle you're talking about occurred in 1874. The walls had been taken over by the Dodge City hide-merchant, Charlie Rath, who was operating a supply store there. A couple of outbuildings and a corral were there and there were a bunch of raw hides stacked around it. The buildings were sod. A main support log in the general store cracked in the middle of the night and a bunch of the hunters got up and replaced it. They were up when the contingent of Kiowas, Comanches, Cheyennes and Arapahos attacked. Otherwise they'd probably have been slaughtered.
Billy Dixon had lost his gun crossing a flooded creek before the fight began. I believe it was in one of his hide wagons which floated off. It was either a 44-90 or 44-77 Sharps, IIRC. The 50-90 Sharps he made the shot with was indeed a borrowed gun.
....According to witnesses Billy Dixon shot an Indian off his horse at 1200 yards with a .50 Sharps. ...
To recognise that it was his horse at 1200 yards is pretty amazing. (sorry, couldn't resist)
It weren’t Isa-Tai but some unlucky Comanche what got hit. The Comanches might still recall who he’s was but if so, they ain’t telling.
Dixon was able to make that shot, which he with characteristic modesty called a scratch (ie. lucky) shot because he and some others had been lobbing shots at the rocks on that distant bluff for bragging rights in the days previous, hence he had the exact range.
It may have been a lucky shot, but not all that much luck was needed givenBilly Dixon’s skill with a rifle.
The warrior's name is known, but I don't recall it.
....According to witnesses Billy Dixon shot an Indian off his horse at 1200 yards with a .50 Sharps. ...
To recognise that it was his horse at 1200 yards is pretty amazing. (sorry, couldn't resist)
It weren’t Isa-Tai but some unlucky Comanche what got hit. The Comanches might still recall who he’s was but if so, they ain’t telling.
Dixon was able to make that shot, which he with characteristic modesty called a scratch (ie. lucky) shot because he and some others had been lobbing shots at the rocks on that distant bluff for bragging rights in the days previous, hence he had the exact range.
It may have been a lucky shot, but not all that much luck was needed givenBilly Dixon’s skill with a rifle.
That’s what I remember reading years ago Mike. It was NOT Isa-Tai that got shot, but some other unlucky Comanche. And that Quannah and Isa-Tai later became bitter rivals on the Reservation.
Lots of Bullschitt posted out there on the internet by so called “authors”.
....According to witnesses Billy Dixon shot an Indian off his horse at 1200 yards with a .50 Sharps. ...
To recognise that it was his horse at 1200 yards is pretty amazing. (sorry, couldn't resist)
It weren’t Isa-Tai but some unlucky Comanche what got hit. The Comanches might still recall who he’s was but if so, they ain’t telling.
Dixon was able to make that shot, which he with characteristic modesty called a scratch (ie. lucky) shot because he and some others had been lobbing shots at the rocks on that distant bluff for bragging rights in the days previous, hence he had the exact range.
It may have been a lucky shot, but not all that much luck was needed givenBilly Dixon’s skill with a rifle.
That’s what I remember reading years ago Mike. It was NOT Isa-Tai that got shot, but some other unlucky Comanche. And that Quannah and Isa-Tai later became bitter rivals on the Reservation.
Lots of Bullschitt posted out there on the internet by so called “authors”.
Yep, y'all are correct. It was not Isa Tai but some other hapless fellow that got shot. He survived. I'm not sure the spent ball penetrated the skin...IIRC.
Dunno about years later in Oklahoma, but at the time I think Isa Tai was pretty well discredited. Injun accounts talk about his fellows beating him and quirting him when his magic proved pretty lame. lol
If you're asking about the walls themselves, they came from a trading post dating to 1843 supposedly. Kit Carson fought a bunch of Kiowas, Comanches and Lipan Apaches there in 1864. Then the battle you're talking about occurred in 1874. The walls had been taken over by the Dodge City hide-merchant, Charlie Rath, who was operating a supply store there. A couple of outbuildings and a corral were there and there were a bunch of raw hides stacked around it. The buildings were sod. A main support log in the general store cracked in the middle of the night and a bunch of the hunters got up and replaced it. They were up when the contingent of Kiowas, Comanches, Cheyennes and Arapahos attacked. Otherwise they'd probably have been slaughtered.
Billy Dixon had lost his gun crossing a flooded creek before the fight began. I believe it was in one of his hide wagons which floated off. It was either a 44-90 or 44-77 Sharps, IIRC. The 50-90 Sharps he made the shot with was indeed a borrowed gun.
Rath also had another store / trading post not far from the Ranch here. It was called Rath City. Within view of the Double Mountains, of the Double Mountain Fork of the Brazos River which I can see from the back porch.
If you're asking about the walls themselves, they came from a trading post dating to 1843 supposedly. Kit Carson fought a bunch of Kiowas, Comanches and Lipan Apaches there in 1864. Then the battle you're talking about occurred in 1874. The walls had been taken over by the Dodge City hide-merchant, Charlie Rath, who was operating a supply store there. A couple of outbuildings and a corral were there and there were a bunch of raw hides stacked around it. The buildings were sod. A main support log in the general store cracked in the middle of the night and a bunch of the hunters got up and replaced it. They were up when the contingent of Kiowas, Comanches, Cheyennes and Arapahos attacked. Otherwise they'd probably have been slaughtered.
Billy Dixon had lost his gun crossing a flooded creek before the fight began. I believe it was in one of his hide wagons which floated off. It was either a 44-90 or 44-77 Sharps, IIRC. The 50-90 Sharps he made the shot with was indeed a borrowed gun.
Rath also had another store / trading post not far from the Ranch here. It was called Rath City. Within view of the Double Mountains, of the Double Mountain Fork of the Brazos River which I can see from the back porch.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rath_City,_Texas
Yep. He followed the hunters and the herds and pretty much got rich by being in on the ground floor at Dodge City earlier than the Walls or Rath City.
Thanks, Birdy. Sometime please give us the story of Jim Bowie and his marriage to the chiefs daughter and his stealing of their gold, or was it silver, and his flight to the Blockhouse on Calf Creek.
Also, did the indians chase him to the Alamo where we know he died.
Also, how about sometimes giving us the lowdown on the Battle of Calf Creek?
Have you ever been out to the old San Saba Mission ruin outside of Menard? “BOUIE” can still be seen incised in the doorway, the way he spelt it back then.
An enigmatic figure Jim Bowie, renowned for acts af violence yet by all accounts soft-spoken and polite. A man who made and lost fortunes, yet tragically unlucky in love. IIRC spurned by a first fiancé, then engages in what was by all accounts a love match with the lovely Tejana Ursula Veramundi, at 17 twenty years his junior.
One, possibly two young children and an adopted Black child Charles Espalier, possibly in penance for his African slave smuggling heyday, possibly at his young Catholic wife’s urging.
Then while he’s away he loses them to cholera inside of a week, a hideous way to die. Drinks heavily, health declines, but still a natural and formidable leader of men.
On Day 1 at the Alamo, if anyone coulda got the Defenders out of that mess it woulda been Jim Bowie, who had captured the Alamo from the Mexicans in the first place. Him and General Castrillon knew and respected each other personally from that. So Bowie rides out to find out what was happening.
Travis, PO’d that Bowie hadn’t asked him first, fires off that 18 pounder naval cannon that had originally been paid for by a Jewish financier out of Cuba and sent out to knock down the Alamo while there were still Mexicans inside, said cannon hauled out all that way by a uniformed militia company financed by a Jewish merchant out of Nacodoches and New Orleans.
So anyway, Travis kicks off hostilities by firing an eighteen pound cannonball OVER BOWIE’S HEAD while Bowie was holding a White flag of parlay, surrounded by Mexicans, which might offer a clue as to how Travis felt about Bowie.
Generally not talked about amid all the twaddle, Travis wrote a letter later that same day to the Mexican Generals apologizing for the cannon shot, saying he hadn’t realized there were negotiations underway, and were the Mexicans still interested in offering terms?
The post was originally one of the trading houses of Bent bros & St. Vrain
I was very impressed with Carson’s very successful retrograde out of his particular fight. He attributed the success to the stellar abilities of the crews of the two mountain howitzers they had taken along. He stated without those two guns they would have all been goners.
Another interesting bit of trivia from the earlier Carson fight is one of the Comanches ( some stories feel this fellow may have been a deserter living with the indians) had a bugle and had learned to play several bugle calls. This played some part in confusing Carson’s men during the attack. Mixed signals and all.
Presidio San Luis de las Amarillas was the presidio there where present day Menard is located. I assisted with two Texas Tech archaeological field schools there. That where young son did his graduate thesis.
That presidio had its beginnings on the San Gabriel river over NW of Rockdale Tx. When that river was known as the San Xavier. There were three missions there it protected. san Xavier, Candeleria, and San Ildephonso. They were all closed and the presidio and one of the missions were moved to the San Saba
If you want a good read on all these missions and presidios I suggest Herbert Eugene Bolton’s monumental work from 1914, Texas In The Middle Eighteenth Century.
The silver mine was not at Menard. But at a place called Los Almagres. Which is at the base of Riley mountain on Honey Creek just of SH 71 in Llano county. What led the folks to think there were silver deposits there at Manard was the fact that silver ore from Los Almagres was taken to The presidio there on the San Saba and smelted for testing and assaying. The leftover slag found at San Saba led many to believe the mines were close by. But they were actually close to what 75 miles(?) east of there.
I've been to Adobe Walls. Was flown out from Canadian, Tx. by a friend in his bush plane. We landed on the road, read the inscriptions on the monuments and lased the hillside with a rangefinder. Then we stood in awe of being able to touch a place of history.
Once we took off, we flew over the hillside. My friend told me there is also a marker on the hillside where the Indian was supposed to be when shot.
My scratchy memory is that the hit was made on the 3rd or 4th shot. Does anybody know?
The silver mine was not at Menard. But at a place called Los Almagres. Which is at the base of Riley mountain on Honey Creek just of SH 71 in Llano county. What led the folks to think there were silver deposits there at Manard was the fact that silver ore from Los Almagres was taken to The presidio there on the San Saba and smelted for testing and assaying. The leftover slag found at San Saba led many to believe the mines were close by. But they were actually close to what 75 miles(?) east of there.
Thanks Bob. Seems like I remember reading that somewhere before.
There were several Spanish officials that at one time wanted to move the presidio down on the Llano river close to the mine. But the results were not that promising for long term results. . This was in the 1750’s. Also it didn’t jibe with the plans of the Spanish Military or the church. As the presidio was suppose to be a link with future travel to Santa Fe and protect the mission established for the Lipanos.
End result was when the presidio was closed again 1772??? It was moved down on the Rio Grande.
Well, when i was about 6 years old, about 1955, my uncle explored an old army fort around Menard and i ended up with a dark colored original Army brass button and a small flint knapped hatchet head for a child.
Well, when i was about 6 years old, about 1955, my uncle explored an old army fort around Menard and i ended up with a dark colored original Army brass button and a small flint knapped hatchet head for a child.
Fort McKavitt.
One of the best preserved US Army posts from the 1850’s in Texas. Even Gen. Sherman thought it was a beautiful spot. My bud who is the historical director there now for the Texas Historical Commission, Cody Mobley, is quite the Collodial artiste!
If you're asking about the walls themselves, they came from a trading post dating to 1843 supposedly. Kit Carson fought a bunch of Kiowas, Comanches and Lipan Apaches there in 1864. Then the battle you're talking about occurred in 1874. The walls had been taken over by the Dodge City hide-merchant, Charlie Rath, who was operating a supply store there. A couple of outbuildings and a corral were there and there were a bunch of raw hides stacked around it. The buildings were sod. A main support log in the general store cracked in the middle of the night and a bunch of the hunters got up and replaced it. They were up when the contingent of Kiowas, Comanches, Cheyennes and Arapahos attacked. Otherwise they'd probably have been slaughtered.
Billy Dixon had lost his gun crossing a flooded creek before the fight began. I believe it was in one of his hide wagons which floated off. It was either a 44-90 or 44-77 Sharps, IIRC. The 50-90 Sharps he made the shot with was indeed a borrowed gun.
Rath also had another store / trading post not far from the Ranch here. It was called Rath City. Within view of the Double Mountains, of the Double Mountain Fork of the Brazos River which I can see from the back porch.
I have turkey hunted in that very area many times over the years. Haven’t been back since the fires moved through that area.
I looked forward to it every year and I do miss going there. Sammy Baugh had a ranch not too far away from the area. If I recall correctly, Sammy still holds the NFL record for points scored in a single game. I believe that he scored 6 touchdowns and he also kicked the extra points.
That feat was overshadowed by another event that happened that very same day which was on December 7, 1941.
"Quanah was able to slip so quickly and easily into ranching because most Comanches had already been doing that for years. Isa-Tai became a rival politician in tribal elections.
...and that’s how the story ends we’re told, a few grey Federales say, we coulda had them any day, we only let them slip away, out of kindness I suppose...."
Those earlier filibustering lads like Philip Nolan and Anthony Glass were trading for horses and mules from the Comanche circa 1795-1805. They were all heading west out of Natchitoches. Nolan had his connection to the traitorous Gen. James Wilkenson as he was Wilkenson’s secretary. ( Jane Long was Wilkenson’s niece. But that’s another story)
The comanches were the premiere horse and mule traders at that time, before their cattle raising days.
Glass ended up involved with the retrieval of the Texas Iron;
If you're asking about the walls themselves, they came from a trading post dating to 1843 supposedly. Kit Carson fought a bunch of Kiowas, Comanches and Lipan Apaches there in 1864. Then the battle you're talking about occurred in 1874. The walls had been taken over by the Dodge City hide-merchant, Charlie Rath, who was operating a supply store there. A couple of outbuildings and a corral were there and there were a bunch of raw hides stacked around it. The buildings were sod. A main support log in the general store cracked in the middle of the night and a bunch of the hunters got up and replaced it. They were up when the contingent of Kiowas, Comanches, Cheyennes and Arapahos attacked. Otherwise they'd probably have been slaughtered.
Billy Dixon had lost his gun crossing a flooded creek before the fight began. I believe it was in one of his hide wagons which floated off. It was either a 44-90 or 44-77 Sharps, IIRC. The 50-90 Sharps he made the shot with was indeed a borrowed gun.
Rath also had another store / trading post not far from the Ranch here. It was called Rath City. Within view of the Double Mountains, of the Double Mountain Fork of the Brazos River which I can see from the back porch.
I have turkey hunted in that very area many times over the years. Haven’t been back since the fires moved through that area.
I looked forward to it every year and I do miss going there. Sammy Baugh had a ranch not too far away from the area. If I recall correctly, Sammy still holds the NFL record for points scored in a single game. I believe that he scored 6 touchdowns and he also kicked the extra points.
That feat was overshadowed by another event that happened that very same day which was on December 7, 1941.
I believe that most of that is correct.
Yep. Slinging Sammy Baugh. One of the greatest QB’s to ever play the game! His Ranch is The Double Mountain Ranch. I believe his son runs it now.
I believe William Bent (remember Bent’s Fort) l, established Adobe Walls as a trading house with the Comanche and Kiowa. It was never a popular spot. Best I remember the reasoning behind this was due to different tribal rivalries caused situations when several different groups would meet up unexpected like at his fort.
For the most part the Southern Cheyennes and the Comanche-Kiowas all got along pretty good. ( There was a lot of pony raids went on between them tho). But other bands that occasionally visited caused issues. William’s 1/2 breed son George explains some of this in the bio written about him named "The Life of George Bent”. He also explains a bit about the Second battle in the same book from a southern Cheyenne perspective.
A good rendition of Kit Carson’s first battle can be found in Hampton Sides book “Blood & Thunder". An excellent read on Carson and the southwest!
I believe William Bent (remember Bent’s Fort) l, established Adobe Walls as a trading house with the Comanche and Kiowa. It was never a popular spot. Best I remember the reasoning behind this was due to different tribal rivalries caused situations when several different groups would meet up unexpected like at his fort.
For the most part the Southern Cheyennes and the Comanche-Kiowas all got along pretty good. ( There was a lot of pony raids went on between them tho). But other bands that occasionally visited caused issues. William’s 1/2 breed son George explains some of this in the bio written about him named "The Life of George Bent”. He also explains a bit about the Second battle in the same book from a southern Cheyenne perspective.
A good rendition of Kit Carson’s first battle can be found in Hampton Sides book “Blood & Thunder". An excellent read on Carson and the southwest!
If you're asking about the walls themselves, they came from a trading post dating to 1843 supposedly. Kit Carson fought a bunch of Kiowas, Comanches and Lipan Apaches there in 1864. Then the battle you're talking about occurred in 1874. The walls had been taken over by the Dodge City hide-merchant, Charlie Rath, who was operating a supply store there. A couple of outbuildings and a corral were there and there were a bunch of raw hides stacked around it. The buildings were sod. A main support log in the general store cracked in the middle of the night and a bunch of the hunters got up and replaced it. They were up when the contingent of Kiowas, Comanches, Cheyennes and Arapahos attacked. Otherwise they'd probably have been slaughtered.
Billy Dixon had lost his gun crossing a flooded creek before the fight began. I believe it was in one of his hide wagons which floated off. It was either a 44-90 or 44-77 Sharps, IIRC. The 50-90 Sharps he made the shot with was indeed a borrowed gun.
Rath also had another store / trading post not far from the Ranch here. It was called Rath City. Within view of the Double Mountains, of the Double Mountain Fork of the Brazos River which I can see from the back porch.
I have turkey hunted in that very area many times over the years. Haven’t been back since the fires moved through that area.
I looked forward to it every year and I do miss going there. Sammy Baugh had a ranch not too far away from the area. If I recall correctly, Sammy still holds the NFL record for points scored in a single game. I believe that he scored 6 touchdowns and he also kicked the extra points.
That feat was overshadowed by another event that happened that very same day which was on December 7, 1941.
I believe that most of that is correct.
Yep. Slinging Sammy Baugh. One of the greatest WB’s to ever play the game! His Ranch is The Double Mountain Ranch. I believe his son runs it now.
When they were filming Lonesome Dove, Tommy Lee Jones took Robert DuVall out to meet Slingin' Sammy. DuVall said he crafted his portrait of Gus based on talking to Sammy that day.
Pekka Hamalienen in his recent "Comanche Empire" had it that the Comanches were trading horses and mules to Americans on a scale unprecedented in history. Certainly the popular stories of rapine and pillage were most all true, but there was apparently a whole 'nother side to the Comanches generally overlooked: Pragmatic businessmen, which is why them trading cattle on a large scale to the Army in New Mexico in '73 was not unprecedented.
A whole bunch of trade by Mexicans to the Americans too. In 1840 when the residents of Linnville on the Texas Coast saw a herd of 2,000 horses approaching. They assumed it was another bunch of Mexican traders en route to the US. In fact it was Comanches and Kiowas driving that stock during their Great Comanche Raid. But the Linnville people were almost right, that herd had been stolen outside of Victoria, from Mexican traders en route to Louisiana.
Likewise Olmstead, in 1857, observed herds of Mexican horses and mules driven regularly up for trade in San Antonio and beyond, by Mexicans.
And then there were the hundreds of Mexican carretas (ox carts) and their poorly-armed owners, regularly creeping across the plains at around five to ten miles a day, throughout that whole period. Early Texas commerce rolled on Mexican ox carts, which is why the Texas Rangers responded so swiftly when certain Anglo residents of Victoria took up piracy in 1857 (AKA The Cart War). Them thieves were stepping on the wealthy merchants' toes.
I have participated in (2) 1 mile shoots with black powder cartridge rifles. Didn't make it this year, both times in the past I used my 45 2 7/8" Shiloh sharps, it's a Business rifle model with a 30" round barrel and an original style chamber for original style paper patch bullets. The mold is an adjustable for length and weight I run them 1.462" long at 540 grains 1-50 alloy pushed by 106 F g black. The target is a 12x7' piece of steel with a black paint job and 5' white bullseye. It is small but very visible at 1760 yards. 9/20 is the best I've done. My gun and load are more capable than I am. Elevation you can dial but windage is the great equalizer. Last time I shot it I had on 348 moa of elevation and was 52 moa left windage to connect. Even when the wind isn't blowing you need 2.5-3 moa for precession it takes 7-8 seconds for the bullet to get there. So you can shoot follow thru take a drink of water then look thru the spotting scope to watch your shot hit. Last shoot I went to was won by a wyo guy shooting his 50 2 1/2" shiloh with 700 gr bullets and a big dose of Fg. Once you have the equipment it is practice that gives you the ability. Mb
New Mexico Military Institute (NMMI) does the same job as VMI in the East, and as Canastego speaks of in 1744. Mari Sandoz wrote the Buffalo Hunters known as hide hunters. Both Wyatt Earp and James Hickok spent time in hide wagons before using Sharps cartridge rifles. The percussion era still used Springfields and some used lost or issued 1873 45-70 Springfields later. The Sharps were better rifles until the 1885 Winchester SS came about in 1885 and later. By then the bison were almost wiped out.
If you're asking about the walls themselves, they came from a trading post dating to 1843 supposedly. Kit Carson fought a bunch of Kiowas, Comanches and Lipan Apaches there in 1864. Then the battle you're talking about occurred in 1874. The walls had been taken over by the Dodge City hide-merchant, Charlie Rath, who was operating a supply store there. A couple of outbuildings and a corral were there and there were a bunch of raw hides stacked around it. The buildings were sod. A main support log in the general store cracked in the middle of the night and a bunch of the hunters got up and replaced it. They were up when the contingent of Kiowas, Comanches, Cheyennes and Arapahos attacked. Otherwise they'd probably have been slaughtered.
Billy Dixon had lost his gun crossing a flooded creek before the fight began. I believe it was in one of his hide wagons which floated off. It was either a 44-90 or 44-77 Sharps, IIRC. The 50-90 Sharps he made the shot with was indeed a borrowed gun.
Rath also had another store / trading post not far from the Ranch here. It was called Rath City. Within view of the Double Mountains, of the Double Mountain Fork of the Brazos River which I can see from the back porch.
I have turkey hunted in that very area many times over the years. Haven’t been back since the fires moved through that area.
I looked forward to it every year and I do miss going there. Sammy Baugh had a ranch not too far away from the area. If I recall correctly, Sammy still holds the NFL record for points scored in a single game. I believe that he scored 6 touchdowns and he also kicked the extra points.
That feat was overshadowed by another event that happened that very same day which was on December 7, 1941.
I believe that most of that is correct.
Yep. Slinging Sammy Baugh. One of the greatest WB’s to ever play the game! His Ranch is The Double Mountain Ranch. I believe his son runs it now.
When they were filming Lonesome Dove, Tommy Lee Jones took Robert DuVall out to meet Slingin' Sammy. DuVall said he crafted his portrait of Gus based on talking to Sammy that day.
Pekka Hamalienen in his recent "Comanche Empire" had it that the Comanches were trading horses and mules to Americans on a scale unprecedented in history. Certainly the popular stories of rapine and pillage were most all true, but there was apparently a whole 'nother side to the Comanches generally overlooked: Pragmatic businessmen, which is why them trading cattle on a large scale to the Army in New Mexico in '73 was not unprecedented.
A whole bunch of trade by Mexicans to the Americans too. In 1840 when the residents of Linnville on the Texas Coast saw a herd of 2,000 horses approaching. They assumed it was another bunch of Mexican traders en route to the US. In fact it was Comanches and Kiowas driving that stock during their Great Comanche Raid. But the Linnville people were almost right, that herd had been stolen outside of Victoria, from Mexican traders en route to Louisiana.
Likewise Olmstead, in 1857, observed herds of Mexican horses and mules driven regularly up for trade in San Antonio and beyond, by Mexicans.
And then there were the hundreds of Mexican carretas (ox carts) and their poorly-armed owners, regularly creeping across the plains at around five to ten miles a day, throughout that whole period. Early Texas commerce rolled on Mexican ox carts, which is why the Texas Rangers responded so swiftly when certain Anglo residents of Victoria took up piracy in 1857 (AKA The Cart War). Them thieves were stepping on the wealthy merchants' toes.
Josiah Gregg on his last trip to Santa Fe (1838-39 I think) anyway the basically followed the Canadian west instead of the usual Santa Fe trail route. They stayed with the Comanches about a week or so!
There is a reference to his demonstrating his Colt’s repeating pistol to a Comanche chief somewhere in the vicinity of the 100th Meridian after crossing into " Mexican” territory. Gregg unholstered and showed the chief the gun then fired several shots in rapid succession. He mentioned the chief caught on to his demonstration and took his bow and shot just as many arrows in just as many seconds!
Pekka Hamalienen in his recent "Comanche Empire" had it that the Comanches were trading horses and mules to Americans on a scale unprecedented in history. Certainly the popular stories of rapine and pillage were most all true, but there was apparently a whole 'nother side to the Comanches generally overlooked: Pragmatic businessmen, which is why them trading cattle on a large scale to the Army in New Mexico in '73 was not unprecedented.
A whole bunch of trade by Mexicans to the Americans too. In 1840 when the residents of Linnville on the Texas Coast saw a herd of 2,000 horses approaching. They assumed it was another bunch of Mexican traders en route to the US. In fact it was Comanches and Kiowas driving that stock during their Great Comanche Raid. But the Linnville people were almost right, that herd had been stolen outside of Victoria, from Mexican traders en route to Louisiana.
Likewise Olmstead, in 1857, observed herds of Mexican horses and mules driven regularly up for trade in San Antonio and beyond, by Mexicans.
And then there were the hundreds of Mexican carretas (ox carts) and their poorly-armed owners, regularly creeping across the plains at around five to ten miles a day, throughout that whole period. Early Texas commerce rolled on Mexican ox carts, which is why the Texas Rangers responded so swiftly when certain Anglo residents of Victoria took up piracy in 1857 (AKA The Cart War). Them thieves were stepping on the wealthy merchants' toes.
Josiah Gregg on his last trip to Santa Fe (1838-39 I think) anyway the basically followed the Canadian west instead of the usual Santa Fe trail route. They stayed with the Comanches about a week or so!
There is a reference to his demonstrating his Colt’s repeating pistol to a Comanche chief somewhere in the vicinity of the 100th Meridian after crossing into " Mexican” territory. Gregg unholstered and showed the chief the gun then fired several shots in rapid succession. He mentioned the chief caught on to his demonstration and took his bow and shot just as many arrows in just as many seconds!
Ya, accounts say Plains Indians fired from a bow held horizontal and fired by "feel" or "instinct" rather than sighting down the arrow. Texas Ranger Captain RIP Ford in his memoirs places the bow and revolver on a rough parity, An Indian on a running horse could put multiple arrows into the air in quick succession and hit your horse or you at 100 yards. Ford specifies that at 60 yards or more, if you witnessed the Indian in the act of loosing the arrow, an active man could dodge. Less than 60 yards or if you weren't looking, no so much.
IMHO the impact of the revolver on Plains combat is way overblown. 50% odds aren't very good for a career Ranger, and the big problem was getting within range of a fleeing Indian with anything, let alone a handgun. The rifle ruled the Plains, what you did is get within range, dismount, and shoot the other guy off his horse.
I seem to remember a band of comanche staying just west of San Felipe for a week or so fraternizing with the locals. 1830-ish???? I think it was mentioned in Deshields book.
I seem to remember a band of comanche staying just west of San Felipe for a week or so fraternizing with the locals. 1830-ish???? I think it was mentioned in Deshields book.
If its the account I'm recalling, observers said they were short, skinny and hungry. In a bad way. Not too impressive.
During the big drought in the 1850's that left many Comanches hungry and drove numbers onto the Brazos Reserve (??) for the first time, I do note that these hungry ones just didn't relocate to join their tribesmen further West. I suppose some did, but perhaps not all Comanches knew or felt especially charitable to each other.
Pekka Hamalienen in his recent "Comanche Empire" had it that the Comanches were trading horses and mules to Americans on a scale unprecedented in history. Certainly the popular stories of rapine and pillage were most all true, but there was apparently a whole 'nother side to the Comanches generally overlooked: Pragmatic businessmen, which is why them trading cattle on a large scale to the Army in New Mexico in '73 was not unprecedented.
A whole bunch of trade by Mexicans to the Americans too. In 1840 when the residents of Linnville on the Texas Coast saw a herd of 2,000 horses approaching. They assumed it was another bunch of Mexican traders en route to the US. In fact it was Comanches and Kiowas driving that stock during their Great Comanche Raid. But the Linnville people were almost right, that herd had been stolen outside of Victoria, from Mexican traders en route to Louisiana.
Likewise Olmstead, in 1857, observed herds of Mexican horses and mules driven regularly up for trade in San Antonio and beyond, by Mexicans.
And then there were the hundreds of Mexican carretas (ox carts) and their poorly-armed owners, regularly creeping across the plains at around five to ten miles a day, throughout that whole period. Early Texas commerce rolled on Mexican ox carts, which is why the Texas Rangers responded so swiftly when certain Anglo residents of Victoria took up piracy in 1857 (AKA The Cart War). Them thieves were stepping on the wealthy merchants' toes.
Josiah Gregg on his last trip to Santa Fe (1838-39 I think) anyway the basically followed the Canadian west instead of the usual Santa Fe trail route. They stayed with the Comanches about a week or so!
There is a reference to his demonstrating his Colt’s repeating pistol to a Comanche chief somewhere in the vicinity of the 100th Meridian after crossing into " Mexican” territory. Gregg unholstered and showed the chief the gun then fired several shots in rapid succession. He mentioned the chief caught on to his demonstration and took his bow and shot just as many arrows in just as many seconds!
Ya, accounts say Plains Indians fired from a bow held horizontal and fired by "feel" or "instinct" rather than sighting down the arrow. Texas Ranger Captain RIP Ford in his memoirs places the bow and revolver on a rough parity, An Indian on a running horse could put multiple arrows into the air in quick succession and hit your horse or you at 100 yards. Ford specifies that at 60 yards or more, if you witnessed the Indian in the act of loosing the arrow, an active man could dodge. Less than 60 yards or if you weren't looking, no so much.
IMHO the impact of the revolver on Plains combat is way overblown. 50% odds aren't very good for a career Ranger, and the big problem was getting within range of a fleeing Indian with anything, let alone a handgun. The rifle ruled the Plains, what you did is get within range, dismount, and shoot the other guy off his horse.
The Colt Patterson's were no doubt, less effective than subsequent models. The Walker and the ensuing Dragoons were much better guns and when the Navy came along, combining effectiveness with a much more manageable size, then you have guns which could certainly change the outcome of a given close-quarters engagement, especially in a running fight on horseback where rifles couldn't be brought into serious play. Ask the damnyankees that faced the Missouri "bushwhackers" about the effectiveness of cap and ball revolvers. This plus the fact that you aren't necessarily talking about weapons making the opposing force "better" than the Indians, but rather putting them on a parity with them in a running fight. Before that, a heavy Plains rifle was outclassed by the Comanches' bow and arrow in a horseback battle, as far as firepower. This particular battle demonstrates how the rifle ruled the field of battle anytime you were talking about fortified positions vs. the Indians attacking with no cover. Much is made of the extreme shot, but the battle was already over by then and the Indians would have soon quit the field anyway. Even without the Sharps rifles, the hunters probably would have won, even with old antique Plains rifles.
If you're asking about the walls themselves, they came from a trading post dating to 1843 supposedly. Kit Carson fought a bunch of Kiowas, Comanches and Lipan Apaches there in 1864. Then the battle you're talking about occurred in 1874. The walls had been taken over by the Dodge City hide-merchant, Charlie Rath, who was operating a supply store there. A couple of outbuildings and a corral were there and there were a bunch of raw hides stacked around it. The buildings were sod. A main support log in the general store cracked in the middle of the night and a bunch of the hunters got up and replaced it. They were up when the contingent of Kiowas, Comanches, Cheyennes and Arapahos attacked. Otherwise they'd probably have been slaughtered.
Billy Dixon had lost his gun crossing a flooded creek before the fight began. I believe it was in one of his hide wagons which floated off. It was either a 44-90 or 44-77 Sharps, IIRC. The 50-90 Sharps he made the shot with was indeed a borrowed gun.
Rath also had another store / trading post not far from the Ranch here. It was called Rath City. Within view of the Double Mountains, of the Double Mountain Fork of the Brazos River which I can see from the back porch.
I have turkey hunted in that very area many times over the years. Haven’t been back since the fires moved through that area.
I looked forward to it every year and I do miss going there. Sammy Baugh had a ranch not too far away from the area. If I recall correctly, Sammy still holds the NFL record for points scored in a single game. I believe that he scored 6 touchdowns and he also kicked the extra points.
That feat was overshadowed by another event that happened that very same day which was on December 7, 1941.
I believe that most of that is correct.
Yep. Slinging Sammy Baugh. One of the greatest QB’s to ever play the game! His Ranch is The Double Mountain Ranch. I believe his son runs it now.
I believe Sammy passed away in a nursing home in Snyder. He lived to be a ripe old age and was known as a Gentleman and a generous Man.
Isa Tai was the medicine man of the band that came to Adobe Walls, if I’m remembering correctly. Dixon’s shot pretty much ended the battle, as the Comanche band didn’t have much faith in the medicine of Isa Tai to begin with. They didn’t stick around to take more casualties.
If you’re interested in Comanches, this book is my favorite. T.R. Fehrenbach Comanches: The History of a People
Pekka Hamalienen in his recent "Comanche Empire" had it that the Comanches were trading horses and mules to Americans on a scale unprecedented in history. Certainly the popular stories of rapine and pillage were most all true, but there was apparently a whole 'nother side to the Comanches generally overlooked: Pragmatic businessmen, which is why them trading cattle on a large scale to the Army in New Mexico in '73 was not unprecedented.
A whole bunch of trade by Mexicans to the Americans too. In 1840 when the residents of Linnville on the Texas Coast saw a herd of 2,000 horses approaching. They assumed it was another bunch of Mexican traders en route to the US. In fact it was Comanches and Kiowas driving that stock during their Great Comanche Raid. But the Linnville people were almost right, that herd had been stolen outside of Victoria, from Mexican traders en route to Louisiana.
Likewise Olmstead, in 1857, observed herds of Mexican horses and mules driven regularly up for trade in San Antonio and beyond, by Mexicans.
And then there were the hundreds of Mexican carretas (ox carts) and their poorly-armed owners, regularly creeping across the plains at around five to ten miles a day, throughout that whole period. Early Texas commerce rolled on Mexican ox carts, which is why the Texas Rangers responded so swiftly when certain Anglo residents of Victoria took up piracy in 1857 (AKA The Cart War). Them thieves were stepping on the wealthy merchants' toes.
Josiah Gregg on his last trip to Santa Fe (1838-39 I think) anyway the basically followed the Canadian west instead of the usual Santa Fe trail route. They stayed with the Comanches about a week or so!
There is a reference to his demonstrating his Colt’s repeating pistol to a Comanche chief somewhere in the vicinity of the 100th Meridian after crossing into " Mexican” territory. Gregg unholstered and showed the chief the gun then fired several shots in rapid succession. He mentioned the chief caught on to his demonstration and took his bow and shot just as many arrows in just as many seconds!
Ya, accounts say Plains Indians fired from a bow held horizontal and fired by "feel" or "instinct" rather than sighting down the arrow. Texas Ranger Captain RIP Ford in his memoirs places the bow and revolver on a rough parity, An Indian on a running horse could put multiple arrows into the air in quick succession and hit your horse or you at 100 yards. Ford specifies that at 60 yards or more, if you witnessed the Indian in the act of loosing the arrow, an active man could dodge. Less than 60 yards or if you weren't looking, no so much.
IMHO the impact of the revolver on Plains combat is way overblown. 50% odds aren't very good for a career Ranger, and the big problem was getting within range of a fleeing Indian with anything, let alone a handgun. The rifle ruled the Plains, what you did is get within range, dismount, and shoot the other guy off his horse.
Another thing about the Walker...many state that it was very accurate and could hit at great distances. They were also about as powerful as some of the rifles of the era...certainly not as powerful as all of them, but...
IIRC, Quanah Parker was the son of a white captive woman, Cynthia Parker.
I did not know about Sammy Baugh being a rancher near the Double Mountain area. I've passed through there a few times, most recently to associate with the southwestern 24hcf gathering in Arizona. I had no idea the persona of Gus McRae was based on Sammy Baugh.
What's really interesting is that Gus McRae and Woodrow Call and the Lonesome Dove story are based loosely on the story of Oliver Loving and Charles Goodnight. They partnered up to drive cattle up to New Mexico and Colorado. Loving died much as Gus died as depicted in Lonesome Dove, except it all took place along the Pecos River. Goodnight was pretty much devastated and IF I recall correctly took Loving's body back to Weatherford, Texas to be buried.
If I recall another bit of history correctly, Goodnight had made friends with Quanah Parker who gave blessing to Goodnight's desire to ranch the Palo Duro Canyon.
I'm not 1% the scholar Birdie and KW are and never will be, but there's enough Texas history to keep the most casual student of history very, very busy.
A passage from Billy Dixon's memoirs still sticks with me. The tragic story about William Olds and his wife who went to Adobe Walls to start a restaurant in the rear of Rath & Wright's store and got caught up in the battle. During the siege, William Olds was climbing down a ladder with his rifle and accidentally blew the top of his head off right in front of Mrs. Olds and Dixon.
IIRC, Quanah Parker was the son of a white captive woman, Cynthia Parker.
I did not know about Sammy Baugh being a rancher near the Double Mountain area. I've passed through there a few times, most recently to associate with the southwestern 24hcf gathering in Arizona. I had no idea the persona of Gus McRae was based on Sammy Baugh.
What's really interesting is that Gus McRae and Woodrow Call and the Lonesome Dove story are based loosely on the story of Oliver Loving and Charles Goodnight. They partnered up to drive cattle up to New Mexico and Colorado. Loving died much as Gus died as depicted in Lonesome Dove, except mit all took place along the Pecos River. Goodnight was pretty much devastated and IF I recall correctly took Loving's body back to Weatherford, Texas to be buried.
If I recall another bit of history correctly, Goodnight had made friends with Quanah Parker who gave blessing to Goodnight's desire to ranch the Palo Duro Canyon.
I'm not 1% the scholar Birdie and KW are and never will be, but there's enough Texas history to keep the most casual student of history very, very busy.
You are exactly correct. I first read of Cynthia Ann Parker in a short narrative "Me Cynthia Ann" detailing her story of being re-patriated to her relatives after the Texas Rangers attacked the Comanche village where she lived after being taken captive in central Texas many years before. The story is in J. Frank Dobie's book, On the Open Range, which my Grandmother gave me years ago. It is one of my most treasured possessions though sadly, in bad shape after me reading the tales aloud to my own children, over and over again. My son especially, enjoyed them.
Cynthia Ann was married to Peta Nocona, a big Chief amongst the Nokoni. The Nokoni band was decimated at the Pease River after the Texas Rangers followed them there after the Nokonis raided Parker County again in 1860. Quanah later stated that Peta was not present at the Pease River fight and died around 1863 never having regained his full health after a fight with Apaches.
A passage from Billy Dixon's memoirs still sticks with me. A tragic story about William Olds and his wife who went to Adobe Walls to start a restaurant in the rear of Rath & Wright's store. During the siege William Olds was climbing down a ladder with his rifle and accidentally blew the top of his head off right in front of Mrs. Olds and Dixon.
A couple of brothers IIRC, were sleeping in their wagon on the outer grounds of the Walls when the Indians struck. The Indians quickly dispatched them, but their dog, IIRC a big one. I can't recall the breed for sure. Possibly a Great Pyranees. Anyway, their dog defended the brothers' bodies so fiercely the Indians couldn't readily get near them to scalp them. They killed the dog and took a "scalp" from its body also, as a show of respect to the brave animal.
It is worth saying that the hunters were on Indian land illegally. Everything south of the Arkansas River in Kansas, Oklahoma and Texas, was the province of the Indians, by Treaty. The hunters supposedly had a "wink-and-nod" agreement with the commander of Fort Dodge to cross the river and hunt in Indian Territory...which they had already been doing down quite a ways south of Dodge City, already even into Texas, but not as far south as the Walls. The hunters had decimated the herds that far north though, by the end of 1873 and had to go into hostile territory to continue the slaughter. The Army, of course, wanted this in order to deprive the hostile bands of their source of food and force them onto the reservation at Fort Sill. The hunters were competitive with each other, but also moved south in-force, banded loosely together for self-preservation. All these actions resulted in the Red River War which ended with the subjugation of the southern Plains tribes.
I've seen this photo many times and it kinda pisses me off to see all the bison heads in a pile.It's kinda unbelievable just how big those herds were.One can only imagine the Indians thoughs on such a massacre of their staple food supply.
Had a Billy Dixon shoot four years ago. Three full size mounted rider silhouettes at 1500 yards. I got three hits with eight shots in a strong cross wind. .45-70, black powder, iron sights. Didn't need no stinkin' sniper rifle. My one moment of shooting glory, kinda sorta.
I've seen this photo many times and it kinda pisses me off to see all the bison heads in a pile.It's kinda unbelievable just how big those herds were.One can only imagine the Indians thoughs on such a massacre of their staple food supply.
While hide hunters had their hey-day, and certainly made some impact, they were not the sole- or even probably the ultimate cause in the loss of the buffalo.
The final decimation - well- extinction, really- of the so called Northern Herd, and likely that of the Southern Herd, was due to disease. Wilthin a year of the first Texas cattle driven into Montana, possibly a million buffs died of tick fever introduced by those cattle.
NP shipping records show no increase in hide shipments, yet in the space of two years, the vast Northern Herd was eliminated, and the prairie littered with skeletons.
The southern herd was not so documented, but it most likely happened at least in part there also.
I believe the picture was taken of bone collector efforts after the big die-off. All those collected skeletons and heads were shipped east to use in refining sugar, IIRC.
The ol’ Taovaya indians up on the Red River continually pop up all thru the colonial period. Their main village was there on the Red around present "Spanish Fort" Texas. Although there was no Spanish , or French, or any garrison there. There was a reported brreastwork the Taovaya had built around their main village.
It was here that Commandant Parilla led his ill-fated punitive expedition against the "Norteños" for their destruction and martyring of the priest at the Mission way down on the San Saba, river three leagues east of the Presidio discussed earlier in the thread.
One note from the battle in Parilla’s report was of a native cancique (chieftan) well mounted and armed with French fusils, accompanied by about five "loaders" on foot who assured their chief never had an empty musket!!!
I appreciate everyone’s input. In light of my love of history, I have really enjoyed this thread. My compliments. Some of you gentlemen really know your material.
For me personally there is more interesting stuff to be read in historical accounts, bios, and primary references than in any fiction. Just my personal preference. So many rabbit holes that lead to other things. Keeps me reading!
IIRC, Quanah Parker was the son of a white captive woman, Cynthia Parker.
I did not know about Sammy Baugh being a rancher near the Double Mountain area. I've passed through there a few times, most recently to associate with the southwestern 24hcf gathering in Arizona. I had no idea the persona of Gus McRae was based on Sammy Baugh.
Yep. Not to far from the Ranch here. Also close to where Rath City was located. Within view of the Double Mountains.
For me personally there is more interesting stuff to be read in historical accounts, bios, and primary references than in any fiction. Just my personal preference. So many rabbit holes that lead to other things. Keeps me reading!
I with that there were like buttons to use to express that as a non participant I’m enjoying this thread. Great conversation. Please, consider that I am brewing a fresh pot of coffee for you guys so that you can carry on.
The battle of Adobe Walls was pretty much the beginning of the Red River War. It lasted from 1874-1875. The Comanches were finally defeated at the Battle of Palo Duro Canyon, by Col. Randall McKenzie, whom the Indians called "Bad Hand". He destroyed the Comanche's horse herd and larder and pretty much forced them onto the Reservation.
We do not blink at Euro explorers wandering all over the place, but somehow seem to mentally nail our Indians down in one area. Weren't so.
Years ago I read a historical account in "Muzzleloader" magazine of an 18th Century Englishman interviewing a Natchez Indian, this particular Indian had traveled alone up the Mississippi and Missouri, crossed over the mountains and encountered Russians in the Pacific Northwest. Returning from that journey he had set out again, this time ascending the Ohio River, eventually making his way to the New England Atlantic Seaboard and back.
During the sack of Ticonderoga in 1757 in Upstate NY, the scary cannibalistic Ottawas came in from as far afield as Wisconsin, and one captured and eventually adopted British soldier was paraded before his captor's relatives as far afield as Mississippi.
All through that period the Iroquois were conducting long-distance revenge warfare against the Cherokees and Chickasaws to name just two, many forays by either side taking a period of months during which time the the combatants might cover more than 1,000 mile round-trips on foot.
During the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade era the largest single contingent of trappers may have been Iroquois Indians from NY, Canada and the Midwest. The Delawares were especially mobile, originating in the New Jersey/Delaware area and in subsequent generations turning up all over the West, which is why there's the Delaware Mountains north and west of Pecos TX. In particular, one Delaware, Black Beaver, had been to California and back five times before Jedediah Smith finally found his way there.
Same period, the Ute Bandit Walkara, based in Utah, was trading slaves and stealing horses as far afield as California.
A while later, a party of Blackfeet from the Northern Plains joined up with some Kiowas and traveled far enough south through Mexico to encounter parrots and monkeys.
I suppose I should throw in that during the Great Comanche Raid of 1840, many if not most of those Comanches and Kiowas raiding clear to the Gulf Coast had doubtless come down from the big inter-tribal peace treaty brung about by the Bent Brothers way up in Southern Colorado.
The Texian Santa Fe Expedition (1841???), wherein the Texians got famously lost was spotted by Jim Shaw, a Delaware then around 21 years of age and already a veteran at crossing the Plains and had been to Santa Fe several times. Shaw could see they were lost and might have helped them but feared they would shoot him out of hand for being an Indian.
Gotta throw in those two Nez Perce who famously made their way on their own initiative from Central Idaho to St Louis (??) to ask for missionaries to come visit them.
The battle of Adobe Walls was pretty much the beginning of the Red River War. It lasted from 1874-1875. The Comanches were finally defeated at the Battle of Palo Duro Canyon, by Col. Randall McKenzie, whom the Indians called "Bad Hand". He destroyed the Comanche's horse herd and larder and pretty much forced them onto the Reservation.
We do not blink at Euro explorers wandering all over the place, but somehow seem to mentally nail our Indians down in one area. Weren't so.
Years ago I read a historical account in "Muzzleloader" magazine of an 18th Century Englishman interviewing a Natchez Indian, this particular Indian had traveled alone up the Mississippi and Missouri, crossed over the mountains and encountered Russians in the Pacific Northwest. Returning from that journey he had set out again, this time ascending the Ohio River, eventually making his way to the New England Atlantic Seaboard and back.
During the sack of Ticonderoga in 1757 in Upstate NY, the scary cannibalistic Ottawas came in from as far afield as Wisconsin, and one captured and eventually adopted British soldier was paraded before his captor's relatives as far afield as Mississippi.
All through that period the Iroquois were conducting long-distance revenge warfare against the Cherokees and Chickasaws to name just two, many forays by either side taking a period of months during which time the the combatants might cover more than 1,000 mile round-trips on foot.
During the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade era the largest single contingent of trappers may have been Iroquois Indians from NY, Canada and the Midwest. The Delawares were especially mobile, originating in the New Jersey/Delaware area and in subsequent generations turning up all over the West, which is why there's the Delaware Mountains north and west of Pecos TX. In particular, one Delaware, Black Beaver, had been to California and back five times before Jedediah Smith finally found his way there.
Same period, the Ute Bandit Walkara, based in Utah, was trading slaves and stealing horses as far afield as California.
A while later, a party of Blackfeet from the Northern Plains joined up with some Kiowas and traveled far enough south through Mexico to encounter parrots and monkeys.
I suppose I should throw in that during the Great Comanche Raid of 1840, many if not most of those Comanches and Kiowas raiding clear to the Gulf Coast had doubtless come down from the big inter-tribal peace treaty brung about by the Bent Brothers way up in Southern Colorado.
The Texian Santa Fe Expedition (1841???), wherein the Texians got famously lost was spotted by Jim Shaw, a Delaware then around 21 years of age and already a veteran at crossing the Plains and had been to Santa Fe several times. Shaw could see they were lost and might have helped them but feared they would shoot him out of hand for being an Indian.
Gotta throw in those two Nez Perce who famously made their way on their own initiative from Central Idaho to St Louis (??) to ask for missionaries to come visit them.
I'm sure there's more....
Yep. Like this fellow. There’s a creek south of Abilene that runs through my nephews place that he discovered that’s named after him.
We do not blink at Euro explorers wandering all over the place, but somehow seem to mentally nail our Indians down in one area. Weren't so.
Years ago I read a historical account in "Muzzleloader" magazine of an 18th Century Englishman interviewing a Natchez Indian, this particular Indian had traveled alone up the Mississippi and Missouri, crossed over the mountains and encountered Russians in the Pacific Northwest. Returning from that journey he had set out again, this time ascending the Ohio River, eventually making his way to the New England Atlantic Seaboard and back.
During the sack of Ticonderoga in 1757 in Upstate NY, the scary cannibalistic Ottawas came in from as far afield as Wisconsin, and one captured and eventually adopted British soldier was paraded before his captor's relatives as far afield as Mississippi.
All through that period the Iroquois were conducting long-distance revenge warfare against the Cherokees and Chickasaws to name just two, many forays by either side taking a period of months during which time the the combatants might cover more than 1,000 mile round-trips on foot.
During the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade era the largest single contingent of trappers may have been Iroquois Indians from NY, Canada and the Midwest. The Delawares were especially mobile, originating in the New Jersey/Delaware area and in subsequent generations turning up all over the West, which is why there's the Delaware Mountains north and west of Pecos TX. In particular, one Delaware, Black Beaver, had been to California and back five times before Jedediah Smith finally found his way there.
Same period, the Ute Bandit Walkara, based in Utah, was trading slaves and stealing horses as far afield as California.
A while later, a party of Blackfeet from the Northern Plains joined up with some Kiowas and traveled far enough south through Mexico to encounter parrots and monkeys.
I suppose I should throw in that during the Great Comanche Raid of 1840, many if not most of those Comanches and Kiowas raiding clear to the Gulf Coast had doubtless come down from the big inter-tribal peace treaty brung about by the Bent Brothers way up in Southern Colorado.
The Texian Santa Fe Expedition (1841???), wherein the Texians got famously lost was spotted by Jim Shaw, a Delaware then around 21 years of age and already a veteran at crossing the Plains and had been to Santa Fe several times. Shaw could see they were lost and might have helped them but feared they would shoot him out of hand for being an Indian.
Gotta throw in those two Nez Perce who famously made their way on their own initiative from Central Idaho to St Louis (??) to ask for missionaries to come visit them.
I'm sure there's more....
Yep. Like this fellow. There’s a creek south of Abilene that runs through my nephews place that he discovered that’s named after him.
We do not blink at Euro explorers wandering all over the place, but somehow seem to mentally nail our Indians down in one area. Weren't so.
Years ago I read a historical account in "Muzzleloader" magazine of an 18th Century Englishman interviewing a Natchez Indian, this particular Indian had traveled alone up the Mississippi and Missouri, crossed over the mountains and encountered Russians in the Pacific Northwest. Returning from that journey he had set out again, this time ascending the Ohio River, eventually making his way to the New England Atlantic Seaboard and back.
During the sack of Ticonderoga in 1757 in Upstate NY, the scary cannibalistic Ottawas came in from as far afield as Wisconsin, and one captured and eventually adopted British soldier was paraded before his captor's relatives as far afield as Mississippi.
All through that period the Iroquois were conducting long-distance revenge warfare against the Cherokees and Chickasaws to name just two, many forays by either side taking a period of months during which time the the combatants might cover more than 1,000 mile round-trips on foot.
During the Rocky Mountain Fur Trade era the largest single contingent of trappers may have been Iroquois Indians from NY, Canada and the Midwest. The Delawares were especially mobile, originating in the New Jersey/Delaware area and in subsequent generations turning up all over the West, which is why there's the Delaware Mountains north and west of Pecos TX. In particular, one Delaware, Black Beaver, had been to California and back five times before Jedediah Smith finally found his way there.
Same period, the Ute Bandit Walkara, based in Utah, was trading slaves and stealing horses as far afield as California.
A while later, a party of Blackfeet from the Northern Plains joined up with some Kiowas and traveled far enough south through Mexico to encounter parrots and monkeys.
I suppose I should throw in that during the Great Comanche Raid of 1840, many if not most of those Comanches and Kiowas raiding clear to the Gulf Coast had doubtless come down from the big inter-tribal peace treaty brung about by the Bent Brothers way up in Southern Colorado.
The Texian Santa Fe Expedition (1841???), wherein the Texians got famously lost was spotted by Jim Shaw, a Delaware then around 21 years of age and already a veteran at crossing the Plains and had been to Santa Fe several times. Shaw could see they were lost and might have helped them but feared they would shoot him out of hand for being an Indian.
Gotta throw in those two Nez Perce who famously made their way on their own initiative from Central Idaho to St Louis (??) to ask for missionaries to come visit them.
I'm sure there's more....
Yep. Like this fellow. There’s a creek south of Abilene that runs through my nephews place that he discovered that’s named after him.
Here’s a good story on the Legendary TX Ranger Jack Hays last Battle with the Comanches. The Battle of Paint Rock. It’s a pretty neat historical site if y’all ever get a chance to visit it.
Here’s a good story on the Legendary TX Ranger Jack Hays last Battle with the Comanches. The Battle of Paint Rock. It’s a pretty neat historical site if y’all ever get a chance to visit it.
Ain’t saying it didn’t happen in some form, but 100 dead Indians at a time would rank as one of the major bloodlettings of the West, that including women and children let alone all fighting men in their prime
“Devil Yack” Hays was undoubtedly the real deal, but he didn’t file reports or write anything down. It has been suggested that he didn’t file reports because he lost so many men, one of his company in the early 1840’s gave the chances of surviving a year in service at around 50%.
Seems like such an unprecedented one-sided victory with so many survivors to tell the tale woulda been all over the press.
I dunno where accounts of the Paint Rock Battle first surfaced, IIRC Hays’ reputed Bandera Pass battle comes from a single account given decades after the fact.
I forget the name of the guy who wrote it (Calallen?) but a close associate of Hays who had relocated with him to California retired to his boyhood home in Kentucky and wrote a dime novel greatly embellishing Hays’ exploits (when I looked some years back only one copy survived, in the collection of a California library).
It is from that we probably get the tale of Hays joining a hunting party of Delaware Indians and running on foot for two days straight to catch up to and attack a mounted Comanche war party. I’d believe that of Delawares raised into the life but an off-the-cuff ultra-ultra marathon sounds a bit much for someone who weren’t.
It might be significant that the Texas State Historical Association makes no mention of a Battle of Paint Rock either in connection to Paint Rock itself or in their bio. of Jack Hays.
The battle of Adobe Walls was pretty much the beginning of the Red River War. It lasted from 1874-1875. The Comanches were finally defeated at the Battle of Palo Duro Canyon, by Col. Randall McKenzie, whom the Indians called "Bad Hand". He destroyed the Comanche's horse herd and larder and pretty much forced them onto the Reservation.
Than went on to die broke and insane. Damn shame.
“Bad Hand” is also a pretty good book. The mental breakdown was blamed on a wagon accident that happened years earlier. He was an amazing tactician against the plains Indians.
The battle of Adobe Walls was pretty much the beginning of the Red River War. It lasted from 1874-1875. The Comanches were finally defeated at the Battle of Palo Duro Canyon, by Col. Randall McKenzie, whom the Indians called "Bad Hand". He destroyed the Comanche's horse herd and larder and pretty much forced them onto the Reservation.
Than went on to die broke and insane. Damn shame.
“Bad Hand” is also a pretty good book. The mental breakdown was blamed on a wagon accident that happened years earlier. He was an amazing tactician against the plains Indians.
The battle of Adobe Walls was pretty much the beginning of the Red River War. It lasted from 1874-1875. The Comanches were finally defeated at the Battle of Palo Duro Canyon, by Col. Randall McKenzie, whom the Indians called "Bad Hand". He destroyed the Comanche's horse herd and larder and pretty much forced them onto the Reservation.
Than went on to die broke and insane. Damn shame.
“Bad Hand” is also a pretty good book. The mental breakdown was blamed on a wagon accident that happened years earlier. He was an amazing tactician against the plains Indians.
Yep!
Yes, and overshadowed by people like Custer and Nelson Miles.
For me personally there is more interesting stuff to be read in historical accounts, bios, and primary references than in any fiction. Just my personal preference. So many rabbit holes that lead to other things. Keeps me reading!
Agree 100%, Kaywoodie. My latest rabbit hole looks like The Life and Times of Bat Masterson. I knew of his reputation as a lawman and gambler, but didn't know he was a 21 year old kid fighting at the second battle of Adobe Walls. Billy Dixon had nothing but high praise for young Bat's fighting prowess.
Here’s a good story on the Legendary TX Ranger Jack Hays last Battle with the Comanches. The Battle of Paint Rock. It’s a pretty neat historical site if y’all ever get a chance to visit it.
Ain’t saying it didn’t happen in some form, but 100 dead Indians at a time would rank as one of the major bloodlettings of the West, that including women and children let alone all fighting men in their prime
“Devil Yack” Hays was undoubtedly the real deal, but he didn’t file reports or write anything down. It has been suggested that he didn’t file reports because he lost so many men, one of his company in the early 1840’s gave the chances of surviving a year in service at around 50%.
Seems like such an unprecedented one-sided victory with so many survivors to tell the tale woulda been all over the press.
I dunno where accounts of the Paint Rock Battle first surfaced, IIRC Hays’ reputed Bandera Pass battle comes from a single account given decades after the fact.
I forget the name of the guy who wrote it (Calallen?) but a close associate of Hays who had relocated with him to California retired to his boyhood home in Kentucky and wrote a dime novel greatly embellishing Hays’ exploits (when I looked some years back only one copy survived, in the collection of a California library).
It is from that we probably get the tale of Hays joining a hunting party of Delaware Indians and running on foot for two days straight to catch up to and attack a mounted Comanche war party. I’d believe that of Delawares raised into the life but an off-the-cuff ultra-ultra marathon sounds a bit much for someone who weren’t.
It might be significant that the Texas State Historical Association makes no mention of a Battle of Paint Rock either in connection to Paint Rock itself or in their bio. of Jack Hays.
Agreed Mike. I always thought the story of him running for two days straight with the Delaware’s story was a little far fetched. Jack Hays was definitely a bad ass, but I would imagine he spent most of his time on the back of a good horse. Running for two hours, maybe. But for two days straight would probably kill even a hardened marathon runner. Much less a Ranger that spent most of his life in the saddle.
If you ever get a chance, they have some great exhibits at “Frontier Texas” in Abilene. The Comanche shield with the three different colored braids is really cool to see. It’s a little hokey, but still worth the visit. The Panhandle-Plains Museum in Canyon is top of the line and must see for folks interested in this part of the world.
Just a side note, a guy dug a Plainview today near Austin that may be one of the largest ever found. It’s supposed to be almost 7” long. If I can figure out how to link the video, I’ll put it on here.
If you ever get a chance, they have some great exhibits at “Frontier Texas” in Abilene. The Comanche shield with the three different colored braids is really cool to see. It’s a little hokey, but still worth the visit. The Panhandle-Plains Museum in Canyon is top of the line and must see for folks interested in this part of the world.
Yep. Frontier Texas is a great place to visit. The Holographic “guides” are a little hokey, but the artifacts and gun exhibits are first class. It’s all about the trail of TX Frontier Forts established in the 1850’s to protect the early pioneers from the Comanches. The Buffalo herd experience in the surround theatre is awesome. Nice little Bookstore inside too. Best of all, it’s free.
Also, Ft Chadbourn, 50 miles S of Abilene on Hwy 277 is one of the best of the old restored TX Forts to visit. It has one of the largest collections of arrowheads and guns in the State. It is privately owned, but still State funded, and still free to visit. It’s been featured on Fox Business News “Strange Inheritance “ TV Show, and a couple of other TV documentary’s.
Just a side note, a guy dug a Plainview today near Austin that may be one of the largest ever found. It’s supposed to be almost 7” long. If I can figure out how to link the video, I’ll put it on here.
Do you know if this was found at one of those pay to dig places?
Edit
Just checked with archaeologist son. He had already heard about it. Yeah thats from the Tolbert site. Pay to dig site about 4 miles north of me here.
Just a side note, a guy dug a Plainview today near Austin that may be one of the largest ever found. It’s supposed to be almost 7” long. If I can figure out how to link the video, I’ll put it on here.
Do you know if this was found at one of those pay to dig places?
Edit
Just checked with archaeologist son. He had already heard about it. Yeah thats from the Tolbert site. Pay to dig site about 4 miles north of me here.
Another thing about the Walker...many state that it was very accurate and could hit at great distances. They were also about as powerful as some of the rifles of the era...certainly not as powerful as all of them, but...
RIP Ford states in his memoirs re: the Mexican War that the Walker Colt was comparable in power to a rifle, and later on in those same collected memoirs puts the revolver and bow on a parity. Certainly the 1851 Navy Colt was ubiquitous in Texas by 1858 according to Olmstead, and in 1860 (??) their ‘51 Navys certainly did save the lives of John Bell Hood’s 2nd US Cavalry patrol when ambushed at close quarters by Comanches on foot.
Problem is though with respect to Plains Indian warfare is finding altercations where revolvers made much of a difference in the overall scheme of things. Certainly there was no discernible Comanche death toll after the revolver appeared.
In 1860 there were 600,000 people in Texas, which would mean about 120,000 men of combat age, many of whom had revolvers and horses. If we estimate at least 60,000 mounted Texans with revolvers in 1860, almost none of these ever rode out against Comanches.
RIP Ford, the preeminent Indian fighter of his generation used rifles, including a lot of .54 cal round ball Mississippi’s in his battles with Comanches, if only because their revolvers were persistently “unserviceable”.
It’s been a while since I read Walter Prescott Webb but IIRC in his book The Texas Rangers includes but one or two episodes against Indians simply because after the Civil War Rangers didn’t chase Indians much. IIRC the Winchester rifles of the Rangers were the primary weapons used.
The Texas Frontier Battalion along with elements of Confederate Cavalry did go out against Comanches in 1864, decided to attack a camp of Kickapoos instead, and got their a$$es handed to them at Dove Creek by those expert Kickapoo riflemen.
Probably who was cutting the widest swathe in Comanche, Kiowa and Apache raiders in the 1850’s were the Seminoles and Black Seminoles based at El Remolino south of Piedras Negras on the Rio Grande, interdicting Indian raids in return for sanctuary in Mexico. Again primarily armed with rifles.
And of course the greatest slaughter ever of Comanches, an estimated 180 dead at the hands of 100 Texians and a handful of Lipan Apache Scouts occurred in the winter of 1840 on the North Fork of the Colorado under the command of Ranger Captain John Moore. After his disastrous foray on the San Saba the previous year Moore listened to his Lipan scouts this time and surprised the sleeping camp. Except for one revolving carbine and presumably a brace of Paterson’s in the hands of Moore, that historic slaughter was accomplished with muzzlloadig rifles, prob’ly ay least half flintlocks.
Of course all firearms pale into insignificance relative to the greatest Comanche killer of them all: cholera. Seeded across the Plains likely from San Antonio by emigrants in the Gold Rush of ‘49, killed an estimated 10,000 Comanches, half the tribe, in the winter of ‘49/‘50.
Thanks, Birdy. Sometime please give us the story of Jim Bowie and his marriage to the chiefs daughter and his stealing of their gold, or was it silver, and his flight to the Blockhouse on Calf Creek.
Also, did the indians chase him to the Alamo where we know he died.
Also, how about sometimes giving us the lowdown on the Battle of Calf Creek?
Not my lowdown, but an actual account with a ring of truth to it, and no piles of dead Indians either.
According to this author It began with piracy......
Thanks, Birdy. Sometime please give us the story of Jim Bowie and his marriage to the chiefs daughter and his stealing of their gold, or was it silver, and his flight to the Blockhouse on Calf Creek.
Also, did the indians chase him to the Alamo where we know he died.
Also, how about sometimes giving us the lowdown on the Battle of Calf Creek?
Not my lowdown, but an actual account with a ring of truth to it, and no piles of dead Indians either.
According to this author It began with piracy......
Links upon links, from that same Texas Escapes compilation a column by one Murray Montgomery re the Texas Cattleman George West, who has a town of that name (George West TX) still named after him.
Lots of towns named after people, not too many with first names included tho.
Of special significance tho, in 1870 George West had a government contract to deliver 14,000 head of South Texas cattle to Montana (sounds familiar 🙂)
Great. Thanks, Birdy. So, that silver may still be on my friend's Blockhouse ranch. Humm. Lots of hard rock ground in that country except in the San Saba bottom. If its not buried in the bottom, they would have had to do a lot of pickax work.
Great. Thanks, Birdy. So, that silver may still be on my friend's Blockhouse ranch. Humm. Lots of hard rock ground in that country except in the San Saba bottom. If its not buried in the bottom, they would have had to do a lot of pickax work.
Unless the Indians or someone with the Indians dug it up out of curiosity. Given the large amount of livestock trading they engaged in, it seems likely at least some Comanches would be cognizant of the purchasing power of precious metals.
I’ve been to that Fort, at Menard, Mike, but it was years ago. Wasn’t Bowie’s lost mine supposed to be somewhere in that vicinity?
Did not know the history of the canon that Travis fired at the Mexican Army.
Better watch out. Our resident Jew haters will now blame the Battle of the Alamo on the Jews. 😜
The front men for all this well-financed outside logistical support we’re McKinney and Williams, a trading company located on Galveston Island who suddenly had unlimited credit and would go on to print the money for the new Republic of Texas.
The 18 pounder Travis commenced hostilities with was a naval cannon, scaled to punch holes in ships. IIRC it weighed 2,000 lbs. It’s intended purpose in the revolution was to breach the walls of the Alamo while the Mexican Army still held it. Fifty-five men of the New Orleans Greys, the uniformed militia funded by Adolphus Stern, we assigned to move the cannon from Velasco on the Brazos Estuary about 25 miles west of Galveston Island.
The way I heard it the cannon arrived on time, but due to a logistics screw-up the 18 pound cannonballs did not. Some irony here, if the cannonballs HAD arrived on time it is conceivable there wouldn’t have been enough of the Alamo left to defend.
The only other thing out there remotely big enough to justify an 18 pound cannonball was the town of San Antonio itself. Hence the cannon was mounted on the roof of a room on the southwest corner of the mission. I’m wondering if they completely filled in that room to support the weight. Most of the church for example was occupied by an earthen ramp, to allow three cannons to be placed at the top of the back wall of the roofless church.
When hostilities commenced, that 18 pounder, an obvious target, was taken out on Day 2 of the siege by Mexican cannonades that broke the carriage and dismounted the cannon.
When the retreating Mexican Army tore down the Alamo in June of 1836, presumably it suffered the same fate as the other cannons; the round trunnions on the sides of the cannons that provided the points of contact to the carriage were knocked off, rendering the cannons nearly useless.
By the turn of the twentieth century the old cannon was on display in San Pedro Park, perhaps a mile from the Alamo. It eventually became a rusted eyesore filled with trash and its special significance as Travis’ cannon not recognized.
When we entered WWI the old Alamo cannon was shipped off to be melted down and recycled as part of the war effort.
I’ve been to that Fort, at Menard, Mike, but it was years ago. Wasn’t Bowie’s lost mine supposed to be somewhere in that vicinity?
Did not know the history of the canon that Travis fired at the Mexican Army.
Better watch out. Our resident Jew haters will now blame the Battle of the Alamo on the Jews. 😜
The front men for all this well-financed outside logistical support we’re McKinney and Williams, a trading company located on Galveston Island who suddenly had unlimited credit and would go on to print the money for the new Republic of Texas.
The 18 pounder Travis commenced hostilities with was a naval cannon, scaled to punch holes in ships. IIRC it weighed 2,000 lbs. It’s intended purpose in the revolution was to breach the walls of the Alamo while the Mexican Army still held it. Fifty-five men of the New Orleans Greys, the uniformed militia funded by Adolphus Stern, we assigned to move the cannon from Velasco on the Brazos Estuary about 25 miles west of Galveston Island.
The way I heard it the cannon arrived on time, but due to a logistics screw-up the 18 pound cannonballs did not. Some irony here, if the cannonballs HAD arrived on time it is conceivable there wouldn’t have been enough of the Alamo left to defend.
The only other thing out there remotely big enough to justify an 18 pound cannonball was the town of San Antonio itself. Hence the cannon was mounted on the roof of a room on the southwest corner of the mission. I’m wondering if they completely filled in that room to support the weight. Most of the church for example was occupied by an earthen ramp, to allow three cannons to be placed at the top of the back wall of the roofless church.
When hostilities commenced, that 18 pounder, an obvious target, was taken out on Day 2 of the siege by Mexican cannonades that broke the carriage and dismounted the cannon.
When the retreating Mexican Army tore down the Alamo in June of 1836, presumably it suffered the same fate as the other cannons; the round trunnions on the sides of the cannons that provided the points of contact to the carriage were knocked off, rendering the cannons nearly useless.
By the turn of the twentieth century the old cannon was on display in San Pedro Park, perhaps a mile from the Alamo. It eventually became a rusted eyesore filled with trash and its special significance as Travis’ cannon not recognized.
When we entered WWI the old Alamo cannon was shipped off to be melted down and recycled as part of the war effort.
![[Linked Image from news.guns.com]](https://news.guns.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/adobe-walls1.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/37RdwHn.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/6UZWo8D.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/nc4OR7s.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/5MZTv5F.jpg)
![[Linked Image from upload.wikimedia.org]](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e9/Bison_skull_pile_edit.jpg/767px-Bison_skull_pile_edit.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/2ZNeG9vh.jpg)
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/PcQ9vgxh.jpg)