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We copied the Mauser rifle and it’s cartridge so closely that we lost a court case and were ordered to pay royalties to the Mauser company. Same rim, same case head diameter, same body taper, and same neck angle. We weren’t into metrics, so it was in .30 caliber instead of 7 or 8 mm. We lengthened it a bit, probably to try to get a few differences so we could try to avoid some of those royalties instead of for any performance gain.
Or, maybe it took a little more length to get 7.92x57 velocities with a slightly smaller in diameter bullet of nearly equivalent weight. In any case, the performance was an almost identical match for the 7.92x57 in a cartridge that was obviously developed from it. When the Germans changed to a 153 grain spitzer in 1903 increasing the velocity of their cartridge to about 2,700 feet per second, we followed suit a few years later and the 30-06 was born with almost identical numbers once again.
Probably... Or Maybe... Source. Jerry We copied the rifle and the cartridge...so closely, in fact, we lost TWO court cases. Now, you’re not going to find anything definitive saying we did exactly that and you know why? Because we KNEW at the time we were trying to circumvent patents and that any documentation to that effect would be discoverable and could be used against us in court. At that time, every other country in the world that wanted a Mauser rifle and a German developed cartridge, paid royalties to DWM and the Mauser brothers. In the US, we simply reversed engineered their rifles and cartridges and tried to pass them off as our own.
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What I don’t get is the .308. Why? Especially nowadays when so many rifles have one action length. If a .308 is the exact same length and weight of a 30-06, why not just get the 30-06? A .308 Tikka or Ruger American Rifle seems like the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard, unless you are going to chop the barrel to about 18 or 20 inches.
Last edited by JoeBob; 10/21/20.
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What I don’t get is the .308. Why? Especially nowadays when so many rifles have one action length. If a .308 is the exact same length and weight of a 30-06, why not just get the 30-06? A .308 Tikka or Ruger American Rifle seems like the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard, unless you are going to chop the barrel to about 18 or 20 inches. Lots of ammo choices for the “non rollers” like me and lots of target type stuff. Not to mention factory 155 Lapua Scenars, in a non election year of course.
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Campfire Oracle
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gnoahh
Yes I understand what you are saying AND maybe they didnt want to reveal what they were doing ? ?
BUT I’ve really looked a lot of places and ‘so far’ I have not found 1 source that said or showed the 8x57 case’s relativity to the 06.
30-40 K, > 30-03 > 30-06 is substituted.
I really am looking for an authoritative source to verify what some folks are saying.
Without a reliable source the claim is Poppycock...to me.
Thanks for your ideas.
Jerry We copied the Mauser rifle and it’s cartridge so closely that we lost a court case and were ordered to pay royalties to the Mauser company. Same rim, same case head diameter, same body taper, and same neck angle. We weren’t into metrics, so it was in .30 caliber instead of 7 or 8 mm. We lengthened it a bit, probably to try to get a few differences so we could try to avoid some of those royalties instead of for any performance gain. Or, maybe it took a little more length to get 7.92x57 velocities with a slightly smaller in diameter bullet of nearly equivalent weight. In any case, the performance was an almost identical match for the 7.92x57 in a cartridge that was obviously developed from it. When the Germans changed to a 153 grain spitzer in 1903 increasing the velocity of their cartridge to about 2,700 feet per second, we followed suit a few years later and the 30-06 was born with almost identical numbers once again. That was a lawsuit involving the Springfield 1903 and the Mauser 98. Mauser won the lawsuit and Springfield had to pay royalties until August 1914 when WW1 started.
Life Member SCI Life Member DSC Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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Campfire Oracle
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https://quizzclub.com/trivia/which-...el-1903-springfield-rifle/answer/286405/Which European manufacturer was paid royalties by the United States Government for patent infringement over the Model 1903 Springfield Rifle? From 1905 to 1914, the U.S. paid $200,000 in royalties to Mauser for patent infringements on Mauser's rifle designs. That included 75 cents per M1903 Springfield Rifle produced, and charges for stripper clip production. Mauser did not actually sue, but both the United States and Mauser's attorneys agreed that the patent infringement had occurred and that any lawsuit would be won by Mauser. The situation was started during the Spanish-American War, when the United States forces were taking large numbers of casualties due to the superiority of the Mauser rifle being used by the Spanish forces. Rifles captured on the battlefield were sent to Springfield Armory, and were reverse engineered to come up with a design which was adopted by the U.S. Government as the Model 1903 Springfield Rifle. More Info: www.google.com
Life Member SCI Life Member DSC Member New Mexico Shooting Sports Association
Take your responsibilities seriously, never yourself-Ken Howell Proper bullet placement + sufficient penetration = quick, clean kill. Finn Aagard
Ken
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What I don’t get is the .308. Why? Especially nowadays when so many rifles have one action length. If a .308 is the exact same length and weight of a 30-06, why not just get the 30-06? A .308 Tikka or Ruger American Rifle seems like the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard, unless you are going to chop the barrel to about 18 or 20 inches. You can make the same argument for the 308. And these days the 308 is winning that argument
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What I don’t get is the .308. Why? Especially nowadays when so many rifles have one action length. If a .308 is the exact same length and weight of a 30-06, why not just get the 30-06? A .308 Tikka or Ruger American Rifle seems like the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard, unless you are going to chop the barrel to about 18 or 20 inches. You can make the same argument for the 308. And these days the 308 is winning that argument And that just goes to show how dumb people are. The advantage of a .308 is near 30-06 performance in a short action which makes for a lighter and handier rifle. A .308 in a long action is just an anemic 30-06.
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What I don’t get is the .308. Why? Especially nowadays when so many rifles have one action length. If a .308 is the exact same length and weight of a 30-06, why not just get the 30-06? A .308 Tikka or Ruger American Rifle seems like the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard, unless you are going to chop the barrel to about 18 or 20 inches. You can make the same argument for the 308. And these days the 308 is winning that argument And that just goes to show how dumb people are. The advantage of a .308 is near 30-06 performance in a short action which makes for a lighter and handier rifle. A .308 in a long action is just an anemic 30-06. Agreed 👍.....Hb
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Picking a .308 in a long action over a .30-06 doesn't make sense to me either. The big advantage of the .308 over the .30-06 is short action. I don’t really think it’s that much of an advantage, so I guess that means it isn’t much of a disadvantage to have a LA in whatever caliber. I can see someone picking a .308 long action for a couple of reasons. A. They don’t know that it’s a long action/don’t even know what action length is. This is probably most of them that pick a .308 in a long action. B. Really like .308/load for it/have lots of guns for it and decide they really want that Tikka but don’t want to add a new caliber.
Last edited by K1500; 10/21/20.
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[quote=JoeBob]
We copied the Mauser rifle and it’s cartridge so closely that we lost a court case and were ordered to pay royalties to the Mauser company. Same rim, same case head diameter, same body taper, and same neck angle. We weren’t into metrics, so it was in .30 caliber instead of 7 or 8 mm. We lengthened it a bit, probably to try to get a few differences so we could try to avoid some of those royalties instead of for any performance gain. Or, maybe it took a little more length to get 7.92x57 velocities with a slightly smaller in diameter bullet of nearly equivalent weight. In any case, the performance was an almost identical match for the 7.92x57 in a cartridge that was obviously developed from it. When the Germans changed to a 153 grain spitzer in 1903 increasing the velocity of their cartridge to about 2,700 feet per second, we followed suit a few years later and the 30-06 was born with almost identical numbers once again. That was a lawsuit involving the Springfield 1903 and the Mauser 98. Mauser won the lawsuit and Springfield had to pay royalties until August 1914 when WW1 started. ----------------------------------------- BINGO ! Springfield 1903 VERSUS Mauser *** NOT 8X57 vs 30-06. Uh Huh. Thank You Elks Jerry
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[quote=moosemike][quote=JoeBob]What I don’t get is the .308. Why? Especially nowadays when so many rifles have one action length. If a .308 is the exact same length and weight of a 30-06, why not just get the 30-06? A .308 Tikka or Ruger American Rifle seems like the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard, unless you are going to chop the barrel to about 18 or 20 inches.
You can make the same argument for the 308. And these days the 308 is winning that argument xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
And that just goes to show how dumb people are. The advantage of a .308 is near 30-06 performance in a short action which makes for a lighter and handier rifle. A .308 in a long action is just an anemic 30-06. ---------------------------------- I'd qualify that "Near 30-06 FACTORY performance". Try that in Optimum Handloads. Jerry
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[quote=elkhunternm] https://quizzclub.com/trivia/which-...el-1903-springfield-rifle/answer/286405/Which European manufacturer was paid royalties by the United States Government for patent infringement over the Model 1903 Springfield Rifle? From 1905 to 1914, the U.S. paid $200,000 in royalties to Mauser for patent infringements on Mauser's rifle designs. That included 75 cents per M1903 Springfield Rifle produced, and charges for stripper clip production. Mauser did not actually sue, but both the United States and Mauser's attorneys agreed that the patent infringement had occurred and that any lawsuit would be won by Mauser. The situation was started during the Spanish-American War, when the United States forces were taking large numbers of casualties due to the superiority of the Mauser rifle being used by the Spanish forces. Rifles captured on the battlefield were sent to Springfield Armory, and were reverse engineered to come up with a design which was adopted by the U.S. Government as the Model 1903 Springfield Rifle. More Info: www.google.com xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx YEP !! Where's 8X57 ? Ain't there. Jerry
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And that just goes to show how dumb people are. The advantage of a .308 is near 30-06 performance in a short action which makes for a lighter and handier rifle. A .308 in a long action is just an anemic 30-06.
IMO and from EXPERIENCE It shows the 'ignorance' of people to think and claim 30-06 performance from a 308 case. Factory IS close. I HANDLOAD and am NOT limited to FACTORY cartridges including the 30-06. I've loaded BOTH and they AIN'T the same. Jerry
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[quote=jwall] Check, 8X57 vs 30-06, 30-06 origin and anything you can find.... I'll gladly read. The 8mm BULLETs were pointed and LED to pointed 30 cal bullets. The 30-03 was developed to REPLACE the 30-40 Krag. The 30-06 was REdesigned FOR 150 gr bullets. That 'summarizes' my research. TRUTH ! I have NOT read ONE reference (authority) that links the 30-06 case to the 8X57 case. I'm STILL looking. I'm NOT arguing either. Looking for FACTS. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Here is a link which shows some history http://www.asymco.com/2010/03/11/the-tale-of-the-spitzer-bullet-patent-lawsuit/Thank You BARM I read it as I said I would. AGAIN the focus was on 'POINTED' bullets and Rifle DESIGN NOT the 8X57 case. I do appreciate it. I'm STILL looking for a SOURCE showing the Relativity of the 8X57 CASE to the 30-06 including CASE. Jerry
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To Anyone and All.....
Show Me The Source of "the 8X57 is the PARENT case of the 30-06".
I PROMISE I'll read it. IF, IF it's true....I'll admit it.
For now it's POPPYCOCK to me.
Jerry
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I sorta get tired of hearing about short actions ...
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I like short actions. I like .308s. But I like 30-06s better and they are superior to .308s.
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I sorta get tired of hearing about short actions ... “Sorta” ? Edit - 1/2” shorter ‘seems’ like a foot ! 4 OZ, UH 1/4 pound ! WOW Yawn.. ZZZZZZZZZZZ jwall, I said that before sleep.
Last edited by jwall; 10/22/20.
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280 is where it's at I have one but in reality it won't do anything for me that a 30-06 won't do. My little brain tells me I'm cool cuz I use the lesser known 280 (and a 300H&H) ...... I'm not.
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I sorta get tired of hearing about short actions ... Me too ... Depending on the chambering, short actions run out of mag space limiting how far you can seat out bullets. That's why I picked the 6CM over the 243.
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