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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Jun 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
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You are making the claim that Sheol no longer operates like days of old. I also make the claim that Jesus is the Messiah.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Claims, ..nothing but wishful thinking claims.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
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Faith allows all sorts of belief to flourish. That's why we have countless versions of God, gods, spirits, demons and angels. Faith based belief that provides comfort, certainty and meaning to the believer.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
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Nope. Your source clearly divided them up as the multiple example definitions that they are. Hence the use of periods by your source.
We will just agree to disagree, But on the subject of punctuation: , there was no such punctuation in the original Biblical manuscript language.. Are you sure that Scripture translators over millenia correctly applied such? Translators themselves were not inspired by God, hence their puntuation could have errors which would change how people interpret. And the fake letters of Paul and Peter included in Bible dont do much for credibility as the book being the inspired word of a God, especially considering the shaky methods christians used to decide what is canonical and what isn't. Faith allows all sorts of belief to flourish. That's why we have countless versions of God, gods, spirits, demons and angels... No believer can substantiate that their version is anymore valid than another's... but it dont stop some foolishly claiming if not insisting otherwise. Worst are Christianity and Islam which have the mission of converting the world to their beliefs. And all they are doing is inviting people to join A mob which still continually argues amongst themselves about what it true and what isn't in their man written mythology.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
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Jesus’ most devout first century followers never owned ‘the Bible’, and never read ‘the Bible’...because there was no ‘the Bible’ to be had or read. There was no ‘the Bible’ until the fourth century.
The Bible isn’t the foundation of the Christian faith. It clearly wasn’t for Jesus’ most devout first century followers, and it’s not now. But many people are quick to question or attack a book that didn’t even exist when Christianity began.
Christianity would still be true even if every Bible and manuscript in the world were non-existent.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Joined: Feb 2002
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2002
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Jesus’ most devout first century followers never owned ‘the Bible’, and never read ‘the Bible’...because there was no ‘the Bible’ to be had or read. There was no ‘the Bible’ until the fourth century. thank the one and only Church for that
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 28,411 |
The degree of my privacy is no business of yours.
What we've learned from history is that we haven't learned from it.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
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The Bible isn’t the foundation of the Christian faith.... But many people are quick to question or attack a book that didn’t even exist when Christianity began.
Do you like other christians, take Bible to be the true and accurate word of God? You do rely on scripture for the basis of your beliefs, correct? Christianity would still be true even if every Bible and manuscript in the world were non-existent.
Anyone who relies on a personal bubble of make believe can claim anything to be true. I've asked you to substantiate claims you have made, but you seem unable.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Mar 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
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Jesus’ most devout first century followers never owned ‘the Bible’, and never read ‘the Bible’...because there was no ‘the Bible’ to be had or read. True, the illiterate relied on hand me down oral account..the question is how much truth and accuracy did such tales maintain when passed along?.. ie: how much fact vs fiction? Tall stories have flourished in all cultures and and belief systems, no reason backward middle east folks would be exempt.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
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Do you, like other christians, take the Bible to be the true and accurate word of your God? You refer to me as a ‘Christian’; although I’ve not used that terminology in regards to myself. Regardless, there is a difference between something that is seen as an authority for one to live by, and something that is considered the foundation of one’s faith. The Jesus that I know isn’t bound by the covers of a book. And my belief in Him doesn’t require an inerrant Bible, nor does my belief in Him require a literal interpretation of the entire Bible. Anyone who relies on a personal bubble of make believe can claim anything to be true. For example, the “claim” that you just made. I've asked you to substantiate claims you have made, but you seem unable. My beliefs are mine, just as yours are yours. I don’t have to substantiate my beliefs, even though I sometimes choose to do so. If others choose to see things differently for themselves...or have beliefs different than mine...then so be it.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,524 Likes: 4 |
Jesus’ most devout first century followers never owned ‘the Bible’, and never read ‘the Bible’...because there was no ‘the Bible’ to be had or read. There was no ‘the Bible’ until the fourth century. True, the illiterate relied on hand me down oral account..the question is how much truth and accuracy did such tales maintain when passed along?.. ie: how much fact vs fiction? Wrong. The most devout first century followers of Jesus that I’m referring to relied upon what they had seen and heard with their own eyes and ears. They witnessed His miracles, they heard His teachings, and they watched Him die. And then, *most importantly*, they saw Him alive afterwards. Some even had breakfast with Him on the beach afterwards.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,097 |
Wrong. The most devout first century followers of Jesus that I’m referring to relied upon what they had seen and heard with their own eyes and ears. They witnessed His miracles, they heard His teachings, and they watched Him die. And then, *most importantly*, they saw Him alive afterwards. Some even had breakfast with Him on the beach afterwards.
Those followers didn't record their alleged experiences, you are relying on mystery ghost writers well after to relay what you now claim to be true. In other words you rely on writers that didn't witness any such events. Believers are known to stretch their imagination then claim it as the 'truth'.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Jun 2008
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 18,524 Likes: 4 |
Wrong. The most devout first century followers of Jesus that I’m referring to relied upon what they had seen and heard with their own eyes and ears. They witnessed His miracles, they heard His teachings, and they watched Him die. And then, *most importantly*, they saw Him alive afterwards. Some even had breakfast with Him on the beach afterwards. Those followers didn't record their alleged experiences, you are relying on mystery ghost writers well after to relay what you now claim to be true. In other words you rely on writers that didn't witness any such events. Believers are known to stretch their imagination then claim it as the 'truth'. Beliefs; we all have em’. Yours and mine are clearly different from one another. I’m OK with that.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 69,459 Likes: 15 |
Remember Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man was in torment while Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham, a place of peace and rest. This was before Jesus died and rose. The 2 men were in different parts of the hereafter and there was no crossing over.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” ― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Remember Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man. The rich man was in torment while Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham, a place of peace and rest. Some argue Abraham's bosom refers to heaven. others say Abraham's bosom is the compartment in Sheol/hades for the righteous. as usual christian beliefs conflict and come down to nothing more than differences of unsubstantiated opinion.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 6,676 Likes: 1
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
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I don't see it as a matter of who believes this or that, but a question of what is true and factual and what is not.
Simply believing that something is true doesn't make it true. What it says in this or that book doesn't make the claims made within the book true.
The question is: why do we believe whatever we happen to believe?
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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I don't see it as a matter of who believes this or that, but a question of what is true and factual and what is not.. They don't know what is true and factual but go on pretending they do, even displaying the absurd audacity to call others out as Wrong, like some self appointed Supreme authority on the matter. When you apply the litmus test to their claims they show no substance, for their belief is purely Subjective.
-Bulletproof and Waterproof don't mean Idiotproof.
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2004
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And worse, lashing out at anyone who questions. Rather than exploring the nature of belief in an objective manner, making it personal, resorting to ad Homs.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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You practice a ‘religion’...just like the Pharisees practiced a ‘religion’. Rules and regulations. There’s no saving power in the sacraments. The Jewish religious leaders were thoroughly educated, highly trained, and well versed in their ‘religion’. And they practiced a graceless and hypocritical religion. Jesus criticized them for it. This is what happens when championing religious rules and religious regulations becomes more important than the people that these things were designed to serve and benefit. Modern day Pharisees are the same as the Pharisees of Jesus’ day. Following Jesus isn’t a ‘religion’...it’s a way of life. Some angry ‘Christians’ seem to be mad because they can’t burn heretics at the stake nowadays. The Pharisees weren't "the Pharisees" because of the God-given laws. They were "the Pharisees" because they lost sight of the spirit of the laws. Frankly, I can't think of anything more graceless than encouraging people to destroy themselves. That was then, this is now. Now nihilists are the problem.
Politics is War by Other Means
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