Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Are classic rifles doomed?

I've been buying classic rifles for years and have only one synthetic stocked rifle in the vault (a SAKO L61R .270 that I put a McMillan stock on about 30 years ago because at the time it was my only big game rifle and I didn't like how beat up the walnut stock was becoming). My two primary big game rifles are a 1950s Savage 99 in .300 Savage and a Remington Model 725 (which I still think is the handsomest factory production rifle Remington ever made) in .280. I have one stainless steel rifle (a Ruger No. 1 in .223). All of my .22s and all of my shotguns are blued steel and walnut.

There's a utility to plastic and stainless, but I hunt for pleasure and to be outdoors and part of the pleasure is having something that gives me a warm feeling when I look at it. Stainless and plastic just don't do that for me.

Jorge,

While synthetic stocks have been around for close to century (Bakelite was an early material), the development of what are known as "lay-up" stocks, made of various synthetic fibers bonded with epoxy, took place in benchrest shooting in the 1960s. This was due to the desire for more stable AND lighter stocks, so more weight could go into barrels, scopes, etc., resulting in better accuracy

The lay-up developments eventually moved into hunting, due to the desires of many mountain hunters for lighter weight, plus stability and strength--and the ability to use "standard" length and weight barrels, instead of the short, skinny barrels often used on lightweight "classic" rifles. This resulted in lighter rifles that balanced better, and shot very accurately.

Which is why some major manufacturers started putting lay-ups on factory rifles, as I recall in the late 70s and early 80s. But they did not cost less than walnut-stocked rifles. Instead they cost more, because lay-ups require more time in manufacturing, and some of the materials, such as Kevlar, can be relatively costly as well.

The reason a lot of synthetic-stocked factory rifles cost less and often weigh close to the same as walnut-stocked rifles is faster, cheaper methods of making synthetic stocks, particularly injection-molding--which in a way is similar to the increasing use of hammer-forged barrels by American companies. The initial tooling for both injection-molded stocks and hammer-forged barrels is very expensive, but after that both stocks and barrels can be cranked out quicker and cheaper than more traditional methods.

One early maker of injection-molded stocks was Bill Heckerman of Belgrade, Montana, who developed Butler Creek stocks for various factory rifles in the 1980s. He told me back then that the initial molds cost around $250,000, but after that stocks could be cranked out for about $7 apiece. However, they did NOT weigh any less than the same basic shape of stock made out of plain-grade walnut, so weren't intended to reduce weight of the overall rifles. Same deal with Ramline stocks, another early IM stock. Instead both Butler Creek and Ramline stocks were intended as cheaper, more rugged alternatives to cheap walnut stocks--partly because the price of walnut was not going down.

Both hammer-forging and injection-molding are why companies like Ruger can now make extremely accurate rifles that sell for relatively little money. But they were never intended to be significantly lighter in weight, as lighter synthetic stocks still cost more.

This is one reason custom lightweight synthetic-stocked rifles tend to cost considerably more than the fewer "classic" factory rifles being made today. So a lot depends on what kind of rifle we're talking about, whether synthetic- or wood-stocked.

One more recent trend in "classic" hunting rifles is limited production models, because demand simply isn't enough to make them regular items--but some hunters will pay somewhat more for them, especially if they're chambered in "classic" cartridges. I'm kind of a sucker for these myself, but almost by definition they're not selling like everyday synthetic-stocked rifles.

I remember years ago when I saw my first synthetic rifle, It was a Steyr "Professional" or some such name. I said to myself, man, that will never sell. And boy was I wrong! I'm with you on the wood/blue stuff though

I always keep a couple of walnut/blued rifles that I enjoy looking at whole I'm hunting, but I also keep a couple that I can beat on and bring in and out of our humid climate down here in LA. I like being able to come in with an SS/Syn or laminate rifle and not worry so much about it sweating, or needing to go wipe off all the fingerprints on the blued steel. I'd expect a blued barreled action in a decent walnut stock to cost slightly more that a stainless barreled action in an injection molded handle, but not a lot more. If the wood is something special, then I'd expect it to be 30-50% more.

Jeff,

That's already happening, not just because of older hunters/shooters retiring or passing away, but due to other countries passing harsher gun-control laws. This isn't as universal as some Americans think, but it's happening enough that many classic guns are being exported to the U.S., which of course adds to the supply.

Out of curiosity, I just took stock of my own collection, and found that 67% are classics, ranging from the oldest (a first-year .50-70 Springfield conversion) to one of this year's additions, a Ruger No. 1B .270 Winchester that was incredibly custom-stocked in spectacular walnut--though there's no indication who.

The 33% that at synthetic-stocked range from a relative few that I use for some kinds of hunting, to "cheap" (but accurate) rifles purchased because of their chambering, so I could do handloading articles. Once I've done as many of those articles as my markets will allow, then they're sent on down the road. A good example was the most recent sell-off was a Ruger American Predator in 6mm Creedmoor. Probably 3/4 of my synthetic-stocked rifles are "temps."

John - Interesting as always. I'm a wood and blue guy but I have one MRC.257 Roberts for really crappy conditions. It weighs about the same as my others but fills a need.

I wonder like so many things it's simply a cycle? Like other recreational pursuits there always seems to be a "next big thing" but a lot of times that appears to be a "big thing" from some time ago. As an example, retro-restorations in classic cars. They seem to have skipped a generation of car enthusiasts but the younger crowd loves them now.

Will coming generations come to value rifles "like Dad used" No idea.

I kind of wonder about shooting competitions too. The rage today with 3 gun and such is great that it's getting people into the shooting sports but I suspect that it will eventually be replaced by something. I really enjoy small-bore silhouette and our local competitions seem to have some new blood showing up. Perhaps all things will be new again.

I can tell you this much personally; in my dotage, I find myself going more and more to "traditional" (oldshit) such as levers, iron sights, etc., so you definitively have a good point there Pugs.

Entirely fair. If I'm carrying a weapon while working (climbing waste dumps, shimmying into old workings, hand-mining ore samples, etc.) it tends to get banged up. I'll happily admit to carrying an old S&W revolver while mining - the old ways aren't dead yet.



Makes perfect sense to me.

The last 5 blued CM and walnut rifles that I purchased were all chambered for low sales volume classic cartridges; 22 Hornet, 250-3000, 257 Roberts, 6.5x53R, and 7x57. I have found that, on occasion, rifles chambered for low sales volume classic cartridges can be purchased for a significant discount because the ammo is hard to find. I bought the 6.5x53R because it was assembled by a big name London gun maker and it was too cheap at $475 not to buy. I never intend to shoot it, but how often do you run across a rifle made by W.J. Jeffery, much less one that left the building for $475? I know, it was a blind hog and truffles sort of find, but a find is a find is a find.

The last 5 utilitarian rifles that I purchased all have synthetic stocks and matte blued CM, Cerakoted CM, or stainless metal. 2 of the 5 were Savage Axis that Wal-Mart was selling for $125 per unit. I'm not a fan of the Savage Axis and think that they are to the rifle world what Harbor Freight tools are to the tool world, but they work and they are so inexpensive as to be virtually disposable.

The W.J. Jeffery Steyr Mannlicher is a European import, but thankfully doesn't have any import marks, so it must have been floating around in the U.S. for a few years. It came with 3 full boxes, 1 partial box, and 1 box of fired cases, all Norma factory ammo in the old woodgrain and red boxes. I bought it from the estate of a USAF Colonel who spent half of his 33 years stationed in Germany and the UK.

I very seldom sell firearms, so if they come, they are much more likely to stay than to leave. I did sell the Savage Axis rifles that I bought for $125ish to a friend who will likely give or sell them to someone in his large extended family.

No one has ever suggested that you are not a pussy.

I'll check back on your death bed.

That said, a factory wood stock is a bit different than a custom, but carry on

In short, you haven't the first clue how to cut one up and put into a backpack. I doubt you've done half that, alone.

Can you blame them?

Steelhead is in all his glory I see.

It's ALL doomed. Search "Seneca Cliff" (or just read the Hemingway quote below and you'll get the picture where we're at now.) Already well into a classic Romanesque collapse cycle, having hit our zenith around the time the quality of 99's started going downhill (not coincidentally), the economic fallout of our response to covid is fast-tracking the demise of our already badly floundering global civilization. It's not impossible we are at the verge of that Seneca Cliff right now. Will firearms still be manufactured at all in the new medieval era we face? I don't much care. I've got 2 really nice 99's i hunt with - a 1950 EG and a 1953 R - and a lovely though heavy classic .375 Holland & Holland (I live in a nest of grizzly bears) so i at least won't be going back to the slingshot, nor will i take up a plastic gun, which is right up there with wearing "crocs" to your wedding. Or wearing them at all, for that matter. Classic rifles are only doomed then if we fail to take care of the millions of them already out there. They'll outlast all of us on here right now. Bad taste in firearms notwithstanding.


“How did you go bankrupt?"
Two ways. Gradually, then suddenly.”

― Ernest Hemingway, The Sun Also Rises

"The number of shooters appears to be growing healthily with the population, but an increasing proportion are primarily or solely interested in guns for personal protection."

The other portion of "the shooting sports" that's growing quickly is target shooting, of all kinds.

High school trap shooting is alive and well.

kwg

I haven't had time to read all posts in this thread but As For Me.... NO



^^^^^^ My All Time FAV stock ! Bar NONE.




Kinda Like Classic Pumps too, and Classy !





Does M 98 in 284 W count ?


Jerry

I think expensive multi thousand dollar classics like some British made H&H or Rigby rifle will never go out of style. I would be proud to own one, but paranoid about taking it to a gun range where it could be stolen while I'm changing targets downrange.

I personally would rather hunt with a stainless light weight rifle with a TriggerTech trigger and cushy LimbSaver recoil pad.