Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns single action vs. double action

The topic of double action revolver vs. autoloading pistol for wilderness carry/defense has been beaten to death. Some, however, choose to carry large bore single action revolvers and while I appreciate the style and quality of a Bowen, Freedom Arms or custom Blackhawk, it seems that while better than no handgun, for meaningful use, a single action revolver would be in third place by a long way.

I am no expert. What advantage other than aesthetics and possibly lighter weight would a single action revolver hold?

Thank you.

Bear in mind this question comes from someone who has spent the last couple years debating selling their (pristine) 629-4 mountain gun and buying a Glock 20 solely because the thought of getting the 629 full of river silt or sand diminishes its value whereas the I could mistreat the Glock without any remorse.

i like ruger single action revolvers for their robust build and ammo convertability: 45acp/lc, 357/38/9mm, 327/32, 22wmr/lr, which is especially useful during ammo droughts to both find ammo and then expend prudently in well aimed shots.

Not a direct answer but I'm a member of a Michigan based gun forum and this debate always comes up. Many are on the "powerful DA revolver" side. Yet, when I ask them how often they practice fast, DA fire, all I get is silence. For some people, who don't actually go where there are brown bears, it's all about "image". If you go where there're big bruins, it's whatever you feel most comfortable with that you can hit.
Me, I carry bear spray and a G43 in the UP.

Not a direct answer, but I can mistreat any firearm without remorse, as long a it works when I need it to. A 629 is stainless with rubber grips, right? If you like it, use it.

Each year there has normally been an invitational gathering at a friends house who works in firearms/training industry. At that particular gathering big bore revolvers are shot and a "Bear Drill" is run.

The drill consists of 3 Griz targets, staggered as shown. They simulate a charging bear. The first one is 15 yards, then 10 yards, then the last is 3 yards. (that is a rough estimate, as I have never lasered the targets)

You must put your rounds through the center of the target (essentially the upper part of an A zone of a USPSA), face area of the bear, and knock down the steel pepper popper behind it.




The targets are staggered side to side a little bit, to simulate a charging bear.






The last one at three yards is normally either a clay pigeon or a tile that must be broken, simulating a brain shot.




The par time is 3.5 seconds for 3 shots. That is a generous time as most bears will cover that distance much faster than that.


I have noted more than once, first time attendees have shown up with 454 Casulls, 500 S&W magnums, .460 mags, etc. Pretty much none of them can get three shots off and make accurate hits. Normally they get one shot, and usually they are afraid of the recoil, and that one shot gets dumped low on the target, resulting in a "miss" or a "wounded" bear. That is the only shot that gets registered as a "hit".




In regards to single actions, I have seen a number of attempts. Exactly ONCE have I seen the drill be successful with a single action. That was actually accomplished by a member here, and he is absolutely a skilled handgunner with very fast motor skills. That is under ideal conditions. Think about that. Under perfectly ideal conditions, everything in your favor, and only one time was a single action successful in cleaning the drill which is already generous in its time, favoring the shooter.

The single actions simply have an extremely low % rate of being successful, with all the odds being in their favor. The chances of the odds being in an outdoorsman's favor in real life are not one I would personally bet my life on. Take in factors like being cold and tired, bad weather conditions, numb hands, heavy clothing, holsters that are covered, being startled, etc, and things go sideways quite quickly.

Most guys have learned that in order to be successful with a revolver, a .44 Magnum or .45 Colt double action revolver, shooting a load that is not a top end load is optimal. Something along the lines of a 250/270/300 grain bullet at 1000 to 1100 FPS gets it done and is still controllable with practice.

While I enjoy single actions and would certainly take one, and use one over being unarmed, I also recognize that they are less than idea for the role. Just like attempting to use a bolt action rifle as a general purpose self defense rifle, instead of a semi auto, I see no reason to handicap myself.

There is a very good reason why I consider a 5" N Frame to be the optimal balance in terms of packability and shootability.





Cheers!

Great post Mr. Sagebrush. That looks like a lot of fun and definitely would show what a person should be carrying pretty quick.

Sagebrush, indeed a great post with some valuable data. (I've been wanting to make a charging bear target on my range for years, as in it's on a track and moves towards you.) I'm willing to bet that the single action that cleared the course was shot using both hands, with the weak hand thumb cocking the hammer. With a little practice, it's the fastest way to shoot a powerful single action. One of the virtues of the double action, in my opinion, is that it can be readily shot one handed, e.g. pressed up against something thinking you are lunch. I imagine it would be very difficult (not impossible) to cock and shoot and a single action one handed while wrestling for your life. I'm with you on this for the reason mentioned, as well as others, I'd much rather have the double action capability than a 454 freight train in single action.

However...I think there is something to be said for one solid hit with a 454 or 500 or whatever vs. say three hits with a 10mm. I've never had to shoot a charging anything (thank goodness) so no anecdotal evidence here, just theoretical. On that thought I think a 400grain 454/500 would be comparable to a 1oz. slug (437 grains) from a shotgun. And slugs seem to work well on charging animals from what I've read over the years.

This is like the 9mm debate in personal defense. A hit from a 9mm is better than a miss from a 10mm. Can't argue that. I guess it comes down what can you make a hit with? For me, I prefer 10mm for woods carry most of the time, if grizzly is know to exist, I'll bump that up to a 44mag, ported mountain gun launching 300 LHC at 1130 fps. If I really thought bear was going to be issues...and I had to be there, I'd add a reliable semi-auto shotgun full of Breneke slugs.

The single-actions are the ideal platform for the giant magnums. The SRH and X frame are the only DA chambered in those. For some people, bears are just an excuse or rationalization of the lust to buy or possess a giant super-magnum. They don't actually deal with bears, but they might be thinking about going to Alaska. If they do see a bear, they're probably best equipped with a camera to capture the memory, but that won't stop them from loading up with something bigger than a 44 Magnum, or a 44 at a minimum. There is no fault in using a big magnum for handgun hunting big game. Double-action doesn't add a lot for hunting, but a double-action revolver doesn't have any meaningful disadvantages either. Still, for people primarily wanting to hunt, a single-action is a good choice and the super magnums are quite suitable for large game. However, I think most of the giant magnums get sold as "brag" guns or just because people want a novelty or a kick in the pants. That's what's evident from most of the Youtube videos showing them off. I do respect them as serious tools for hunting, but personally, I will only hunt game bigger than deer/pronghorn/bighorn on a very rare basis and I haven't yet afforded an opportunity to need something especially big.

A S&W DA revolver is my all-purpose gun. It's not a super-magnum and I hand load it to a mild velocity that still produces good penetration with a hollowpoint. I would bump up the velocity to the maximum if I were hunting large game but not for defense where control is more important. My ammo is about the same as hot 10mm loads (not more). Because my DA revolver, which I fire in double-action exclusively, is my all-purpose and EDC gun, and the gun I attend all training classes with, and which I practice the most with, I wouldn't consider switching to a polymer-framed pistol, but I can see why people prefer the lighter weight and more compact size. I think the weight contributes to controllability, and my 5" bbl revolver doesn't exceed what I'm willing to carry every day. The grips on my revolver fit me better than a G40. My revolver is also a lot more accurate than a Glock, which may not be important for defense, but matters for hunting.

If you're not carrying the pristine 629, start practicing with it and carrying it, or get something different that you will practice with and carry. I carried a single-action for a while, a Ruger in an ordinary magnum, and it was better than being unarmed. One of the overlooked disadvantages to a single action, both revolvers and automatics, is the short-light trigger in dangerous civil situations, which are more likely than dangerous bear encounters. In those situations, an unwanted shot is at least as evil as a second one that comes too slow.

I have no qualms about my stainless steel S&W enduring the outdoor elements. It will endure them as well as any other handgun I know. The blued guns will suffer more. If you concern yourself with pristine aesthetics, don't carry a blued gun. If you don't mind the look of worn bluing then it doesn't matter as long as you clean it regularly and keep it oiled.

I love the single actions for shooting and hunting. I prefer them by a wide margin. Several years ago I came to the conclusion that if I had to confront a charging bear with a handgun, I'd be better armed and capable of putting down that bear with some warm 9mm or 40 cal loads using heavy, non-expanding bullets. I can shoot them fast and accurately enough. Nothing in my experience since coming to that conclusion has swayed me away from it. CNS hits are the likeliest way to end a bear charge, and huge magnums just aren't required at life-threatening range to do the damage needing to be done. I DO practice rapid-fire drills at multiple small targets for 4-5 shots regularly enough that I have fair confidence that I could do what needed doing. I can't say I would actually pull it off, but I have the minimum of skill required. Skill trumps caliber every time.

I really like SA revolvers. But if my ass is on the menu at the Bear Diner, I'll take a DA revolver like the Alaskan. Short, easy to hang onto and works even with a busted thumb. It is incumbent on me to make sure it provides reliable ignition in DA mode and that I can shoot it well enough to peel a bear off me.

I can handle that. Dumb luck or natural selection await the unprepared.

May start carrying both as backups to a .45-70.

Tomahawk backup + KA-BAR backup.

Swiss Army knife backup backup.

Don't have any bear problems where I hunt, but during the non-hunting periods of the year I pack either my 625 45 LC mountain gun or my sig 226 tac-ops in 40 or my sig 227 tac-ops in 45 acp not for bear but I have come across things in the woods that could make you disappear without anybody knowing where you went.

Mackay Sagebrush- thank you for the detailed reply. My other 629 has a 5" barrel and it is remarkable how much easier it is to shoot well vs. the mountain gun. Is the bear drill you mentioned three shots mainly because those with experience believe three is all you are likely able to get off in a bear charge situation? I have wondered the real world value of more than 6 rounds (ie Glock 20) in a bear charge.

Thank you

If I needed a handgun that was purely for defense against big bears, it would be a semi-auto; that's just me. That said, nothing wrong with carrying a revolver because you just like or prefer revolvers. In that case, I'd prefer a double action just because I'm more competent with a DA than a SA in rapid fire. But the job can get done with a SA revolver as well...It's really not up to the gun, but the shooter.

The advantages of a DA revolver in rapidity of fire and loading, result in a frame design that's not as strong as a single action. The cylinder crane is another particular point of weakness. So when it comes to the really big magnums, a single action is a much more efficient platform; smaller, lighter, and stronger.

It's assumed if you're carrying one of the big magnums, you're doing so because you choose to do with one bullet, what other guns would do with multiple bullets...So a rapid reload isn't a priority for someone wanting a lot of power. Whether that's the right way to go for something like big bears...well, only the individual hunter can answer that question...What are you most comfortable with? What are you most competent with?

None.

I've got several 45 Colts and 44 Mag's, I'd have considered for big bear defense before reading this. I've currently only got one double action amongst this array. After reading this post, that's the one I'd take with me.

Especially loaded with some Lehigh 265gr copper solids at 1100fps or so for *that* gun.

If worse comes to worse and the critter is on you, I'd take a DA revolver over a SA revolver to keep running until it is dry. I'd take a revolver over an auto so as not to get an out of battery malfunction with the muzzle up against the critter.
As far as the best thing to shoot before the critter is on you, Mackay Sagebrush offers well considered choices and thoughts.
On the other hand, Mr. Phil Shoemaker . . .

Where I live we have bear issues, but nothing a moderately powered handgun can't handle. When in bear country I pretty much whatever tickles my fancy.

I will take a single action revolver over any other handgun. The odds of still having a problem at the end of 6 aimed shots is nil. At that point either the problem is dead or I am dead. It takes 2 hands on the gun to reliably make a telling shot. Single action is just as fast .. and for me faster to actually hit with .. than a double action when shooting two-handed.

I do, at times, carry a S&W 329PD. It has a role .. if I'm going UL for backpacking especially. Mine will make 1 very good shot. If I have to shoot it again within 7-8 minutes I'll probably miss. I have to wait for the bruise that the high hump behind the hammer makes on the big knuckle at the base of my thumb to deflate between shots else I get an incredible flinch. It really is like deliberately slamming your hand in the car door, HARD, a second time. I also can't do rubber grips .. period. For me, among all double actions, the standard, not super, Ruger Redhawk handles recoil the best. It is not a single action but it is the least bad among double actions. ... hmmm, I might have to qualify that, I've never messed with a Colt Anaconda, but it looks like it might have a better grip for my hands than a Redhawk.

I don't care who killed what with a semi-auto, that's getting into relying on luck rather than skill. I'm not lucky. I don't win door prizes, i don't win the lottery, I have to work for it, plan and execute. There simply is not a semi-auto cartridge housed in a portable semi-auto that meets my needs. Those are nice for dark alleys downtown and very little else ... for me.

Ya'll do what you like. I'm not telling you not to. I am just saying what works for me.

[quote=Mackay_Sagebrush]
Each year there has normally been an invitational gathering at a friends house who works in firearms/training industry. At that particular gathering big bore revolvers are shot and a "Bear Drill" is run.

The drill consists of 3 Griz targets, staggered as shown. They simulate a charging bear. The first one is 15 yards, then 10 yards, then the last is 3 yards. (that is a rough estimate, as I have never lasered the targets)

You must put your rounds through the center of the target (essentially the upper part of an A zone of a USPSA), face area of the bear, and knock down the steel pepper popper behind it.




The targets are staggered side to side a little bit, to simulate a charging bear.






The last one at three yards is normally either a clay pigeon or a tile that must be broken, simulating a brain shot.




The par time is 3.5 seconds for 3 shots. That is a generous time as most bears will cover that distance much faster than that.


I have noted more than once, first time attendees have shown up with 454 Casulls, 500 S&W magnums, .460 mags, etc. Pretty much none of them can get three shots off and make accurate hits. Normally they get one shot, and usually they are afraid of the recoil, and that one shot gets dumped low on the target, resulting in a "miss" or a "wounded" bear. That is the only shot that gets registered as a "hit".




In regards to single actions, I have seen a number of attempts. Exactly ONCE have I seen the drill be successful with a single action. That was actually accomplished by a member here, and he is absolutely a skilled handgunner with very fast motor skills. That is under ideal conditions. Think about that. Under perfectly ideal conditions, everything in your favor, and only one time was a single action successful in cleaning the drill which is already generous in its time, favoring the shooter.

The single actions simply have an extremely low % rate of being successful, with all the odds being in their favor. The chances of the odds being in an outdoorsman's favor in real life are not one I would personally bet my life on. Take in factors like being cold and tired, bad weather conditions, numb hands, heavy clothing, holsters that are covered, being startled, etc, and things go sideways quite quickly.

Most guys have learned that in order to be successful with a revolver, a .44 Magnum or .45 Colt double action revolver, shooting a load that is not a top end load is optimal. Something along the lines of a 250/270/300 grain bullet at 1000 to 1100 FPS gets it done and is still controllable with practice.

While I enjoy single actions and would certainly take one, and use one over being unarmed, I also recognize that they are less than idea for the role. Just like attempting to use a bolt action rifle as a general purpose self defense rifle, instead of a semi auto, I see no reason to handicap myself.

There is a very good reason why I consider a 5" N Frame to be the optimal balance in terms of packability and shootability.





Cheers!


Very cool that you guys do this.I know it’s a single vs double thread , but could you tell me how guys do with their say 10mm’s in this drill. Thanks

Bryce Towsley puts 5 rds of factory full power 454 Cassul on target at 5 yards with FA-83 in 2.88 seconds

https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2014/7/15/video-the-454-casull-challenge/

To each their own but I suspect you've never put any effort into learning to shoot a DA or used a timer on the range.

I'd bet that if Max had a warm up and the same target he'd have been around 2.8 seconds as well.

And I bet they'd both be well under that with a DA revolver.

Only Bryce Towsley showed his target and group

Good point on the timer.

Single action can be pretty fast. I took second place at a bowling pin shoot, clearing the table of 5 pins in 3.5 seconds. However, that was with a 44-40 with light recoil. I’m certain it would have taken much longer with 44 mag. loads.

True 'dat.

But he never showed his time, target, or group with a DA.

Let's try and be serious here.

I believe the OP was asking a sincere question.

Which one is better suited for twirling on your finger??

yep i can shoot a double action faster but i am much more accurate cocking the hammer,aiming and fire so then for me single action could be as good as a double action for that one good shot ? i always hunt with a single shot rifle and do as good or better than many hunting. i was taught make that 1st shot count, double actions are always faster but a standard trigger in a double action revolver with hammer not cocked for me are not very accurate. i also would do poorly on those 3 bear targets but the 1st shot would be good on the 1st bear target.

Although people usually use Jerry Miculek as the example, I laugh every time someone says it's okay to use something because (insert name of world class shooter) can do it. 99.99% of us don't have the time, money or genetics to shoot that well. We be commoners...

It's a lot simpler to state "I can't shoot DA."

When shooting a 65,000 PSI 454 or a 420 grain at 1400 FPS out of a 475L or 500 JRH I don't think one can shoot a double action accurately faster than a single action. With lesser kicking rounds yes

Crap, now I'magonna have to put a .454 Casull SRH, .480Ruger SRH or equivalent on the list!

Taurus...nope.

Does someone make a DA .475 Linebaugh, DA .500JRH ?? Haven't heard of one, yet.

Custom gunmakers have made 475L and 500 JRH on the SRH

My vagina quivered just reading that.

This gathering is specifically for the shooting of revolvers. The host of the gathering invites the attendees as he deems fits, and determines the nature of the gathering. Generally speaking there is an annual gathering centered around when the 1911 was adopted into service, which is always a great one. Others are general social type shoots. The revolver shoot is often steeped in Elmer Keith tradition due to the fact that it is held in central Idaho and who attends.

To answer your question, most handgun shooters shoot semi autos more and obviously would turn in better times with a semi auto, with the exception of someone like Jerry Miculek. While there are some noteworthy shooters who attend, including grandmaster ranked shooters, a mix of current and retired professional gun carriers from organizations that do a considerable amount of firearms training, as well as a mix of pretty "regular" guys, none of us are Mr. Miculek. The point of the exercise is to test the shooters ability with their big bore revolver, shooting loads that would be appropriate to carry in bear country.

TCP,

I don't have the answer to the why part of your question. I "believe" that my friend Ken came up with it after discussing the subject with some folks from Alaska, and I recall him talking about it, but I do not recall any of the details, as it has been a while ago. I absolutely don't pretend to be a bear expert.

We have bears, cats, wolves and everything else, and as a matter of fact, I was just dealing with a lion a couple weeks ago, The big kitty was in the same drainage and decided to follow me. Never saw him, but apparently he was watching me.



If you have questions about bears, I would refer to Phil Shoemaker. He has probably forgotten more about bears than most people here at the fire will ever know.

When being charged by a bear, perhaps there may be some benefit of falling backwards onto your back...you may gain that little bit of time to get another shot off OR the bear may wonder where you went and change its speed.

The other benefit is you are less likely to fly off into the air when it hits you.

Thanks ..

Craig is right. Knowing your gun and having it on you is probably the most important thing in any case. I recently read a horror story on another forum where a gentleman and his friend found themselves being attacked by a grizzly bear after killing a moose. I can't retell it quite right, so I'll just leave the link to the post here: https://thegreatwhitehunter.wordpress.com/the-longest-minute-terrifying-bear-attack/

Anyways these days I feel the whole "bear gun" debate is pretty played out. I think that probably every cartridge above a stout 10mm will do a more or less decent job on a bear provided proper shot placement. I've never understood guns like the big X-Frame S&Ws being marketed as "bear defense" guns. I'm thinking this was mostly a measure to make justifying a purchase of one to your wife seem a little bit more reasonable, as is the case with a lot of niche guns these days. It's hard to tell whether a bear that kept going after 6 rounds of .44 Magnum would have stopped after 10 rounds of 10mm and vice versa. Even worse when it turns into an emotional debate of "my gun better than your gun".




To me this video always seemed like it kinda missed the point. You have all these guys trying for the gun to go bang 5 times with less of an emphasis on actually hitting the target. Especially the last two were pretty bad offenders with Mr Draper doing the best out of all of them.

You might also want to take this post with a grain of salt as the only "bear" I've encountered in the wild was a raccoon (which we call wash-bear here) I did kill a boar with my .454 Casull at ~15ft last year, though, but that's another story.

Depends.

Bob Munden wasnt always the most likeable guy, but sans any real heavy recoil, history is full of guys that made SA guns operate faster than more mechanical arms, with accuracy.

Practice seems to me is what drives success, above all else.

Ok,,,,, I'll add my 2-cents worth,,,,,, my Granddad bought me a SA Ruger .22 BearCat in 1963, I was 13, he "Filed" the front sight off, and showed me how to aim and fire, just as you would "Point" your finger at something, or someone,,,,,, and thats how I learned to shoot a Hand-Gun,,,,,, Fast forward to the future, I've had multiple flavors of Hand-Guns over the yrs, and what it came down to,,,, for me anyway, was that I didn't leave it at the house, or in the Truck or in Camp,,,,, it needs to be part of you, and on your "Person" without even thinking about it,,,,, so, whether it's a SA or a DA,,,, it's what your comfortable/familiar with, and able to make that 1st shot count,,,,, so since about 2002, I've been packin a S&W 329PD .44Mag, albeit a Highly Modified Version,,,,,,, and that my Friends, is my Story, and I'm sticking to it......
Lj

School of the hit what you aim at with whatever you're carrying.