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Has anyone had a chance to compare both actions side by side?
Interested in impressions and comments on both actions good or bad.
Thanks!
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I've been wondering the same...It looks like Borden's action have a little tighter tolerances according to the websites.
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I have both a Stiller Predator and 3 Borden Alpines. I think the Alpines are finished nicer,and they appear to be tighter and I don't care for the hard anodize Stiller uses. I like the larger scope base screws on the Alpine. The Alpine looks better to my eyes i suppose, with the flat side and standard size port opening. Outside of that personally opinion prevails.
I don't think you can go wrong selecting either.
Michael
My biggest fear is when I die my wife sells all my gear for what I said I paid for it.
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What chambering on those actions? TL
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." - Thomas Jefferson
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I've got a new right handed,SS,Timberline,with bottom metal box,spring and follower,trigger and safety,everything for sale.I was going to build a 300 RUM and changed my mine.$1395.00 if interested you can email me at shotgunbet yahoo.com.
Last edited by crittergetter; 07/24/07. Reason: add info
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I've had both actions in the shop at the same time. I've had a total of two Alpines and a Timberline, and two short action Predators and a long. In my opinion they are like apples and oranges.
The Predators seem almost as loose as 700's, and don't seem to be much truer than an untrued 700 as well. The Alpines and Timberlines on the other hand seem much more refined, have much tighter tolerances, and seem to function much smoother than the Predators.
If it were me spending my hard earned money, I would definitely spend a little bit more to get the Borden action.
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Keep in mind Borden uses 18TPI instead of the standard 16TPI for barrel threads. can make selling a used barrel hard to find a interested buyer.
I have an Alpine, if I were to buy another, I'd request the barrel threads be cut 16TPI or I'd look elsewere. Only complaint I have about the Borden action.
hotrodusa.....N.R.A. Life Member
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Wow....good info Karl, thanks. J
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What chambering on those actions? TL The predator is a .243AI and the alpine is a .17 Predator and Jim Borden is finishing a 6.5 x 47 Lapua
My biggest fear is when I die my wife sells all my gear for what I said I paid for it.
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Thanks for the info Karl!
Nice to have an unbiased opinion from a riflesmith who actually gets to see and work with the actions.
One note though, kinda suprised that Predator seemed that "loose." I figured Stiller would have made them a lot tighter than a fatory M700. But could it be a little looser to allow for crap to get caught into the action and still be able to cycle it and fire?
Also, back to the Alpine; did your clients Karl select to use the HS DBM or Wyatt+floorplate combo? Curious on round capacity.
Thanks again!
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Karl..thanks for info..very informative
I don't always venture out into the sub-freezing darkness, but when I do, it is deer hunting season, and I carry a Remington. Stay hungry my friends.
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I can't believe you feel the Stiller Predator is just a little truer than an untrued Rem. 700 action. I know Borden's is tighter but an untrued 700??????
I heard different by Chris Mathews at LSR who is building my custom on a Predator. Also read Kirby Allen's take on the Stiller Predator - sounded pretty good to me. The Predator is not a bench rest action but more of a refined hunting action - there's the tolerance difference.
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When I spoke with Mickey Coleman, he thought pretty highly of the Predator actions if I remember correctly.
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered." ― George Orwell, 1984
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FWIW I have a recent production Predator SA with the bolt flutes. It most definitely is a hunting action because it has some obvious bolt to raceway clearance. However, it has discernibly less bolt to raceway clearance than my Rem 700 KS (my only 700). I think Jerry split the compromise right...engineer in enough clearance for it to operate in varied hunting environments but no more than necessary. Also, I don't know if my example is more or less square than a typical factory fresh 700, but in speaking with Mark Penrod concerning barreling my action, his exact words were "I know them to be square" and he quoted me the previously trued action barreling fee from his brochure. More than a few respected smiths agree that the Predators are square. Maybe a quality improvement has occurred since Karl measured his examples? Call Jerry and ask IMO I think a Predator is a darn good deal. But you know what opinions are like...
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I sure don't have an ax to grind here either way, and I don't personally own either one. Just thought I'd pass along what I've found in my shop. I don't post just to see my own words on a screen, and I'm sure not trying to ruffle anybody's feathers. I only have one Predator in my shop right now to compare to Remington 700's. I think it is a more recent example as it has a fluted bolt. The clearance between the bolt body and bolt bore raceway is .010. I checked several Remington 700's and the average is .008. From the action face to the bolt face on the Predator is out of parallel about .0009. The untrued Remington's that I checked ran between .0005 and .0015. Perhaps this is not the case with all Predators, as there are some well known gunsmiths that do speak favorably of them. All I can do is comment on the ones that I have seen. As far as round counts on the Alpines, I only barreled the actions, so I'm not sure what bottom metal ended up being used with them.
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Jason,
You are correct. For what you are getting with a Predator, with the amount of custom machining and relatively low production numbers, it is quite a deal. I just think that the Borden is a better deal.
Karl
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Hmmmmmm interesting to say the least but Jerry won't respond because he is at the VHJ shooting this week. I have a call into him on his cell.
I own 5 of the actions and Karl you will be getting one shortly as soon as the stock is finished to build. Can't remember if that one was actually measured or not if it is that far out rest assured Jerry will get a call.
Last edited by Boss Hoss; 07/25/07.
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Karl,
I am glad you are sharing your measurements of the Predator in your shop. I'm curious...is your customer going having you remachine it, or is it going back to Stiller since its out of spec?
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I have no idea what Stiller's specs are. It may be well within. I know Borden says he tries to keep his within .0002. The ones I've seen have been .0002 to .0003 out. And if I remember correctly, Borden's clearance between bolt bore raceway and bolt runs about .002. Still, I don't have any doubt that 1/2" groups will be attainable with the Predator.
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Karl,
Jerry claims Predators are set up for bolt fit to body of .0035" to .0045". I don't know the specs on bolt face to action face.
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