Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Yeah, that’s a fair amount of math right there.

You bet, spoke with sharpsguy yesterday, he's doing much better, he drilled a Springbuck in Africa at 537 yards off sticks with a 45-110 Sharps with ladder barrel sight and copper penny front sight he made himself, 19th century fiber optics if you will, I have a few Sharps rifle target and kill pics I can send you if you want.

Yes, 12-15 feet in 10 MPH full value off the top of my head, ouchy! ; ]

Here are dimensions of the .450 Howell and a blurb with mention of the .450 G&A Short Magnum and .460 G&A:

gunner500,

Don't sweat the Picatinny until you get back from Africa and get bored, big-bored.
Don't get gored from fumbling around, loading around a Picatinny on an iron-sighted rifle.
I have all of the sharpsguy photos that were at ardotcom.
If you have more you want posted here, send them on, most applicable to this thread would be .45-caliber BPCR.
Ask sharpsguy if he is OK with putting his old stuff up here, please.
It will amaze for sure.

Speaking of iron sights on my thumpers, I consider putting 3 shots into 2 inches at 50 yards on paper to be OK for me !
The iron sights on my .450 Ted Williams Thumper do that just fine, and with a scope she shoots as well as my scoped .458 WM and .458 WM+ rifles.







These are the iron sights that work for me, using a hold such that the rifle shoots to top edge of bead at 50 yards POA,
load being 500-gr TSX with 96.0 grains of RL-15, 2372 fps 5-yd chrono, about 2382 fps MV, from 22" barrel, 90*F.
The last inch of the 23" barrel was ported by a gunsmith in Alaska, while it was a .460 WBY.
For a closer target and faster shooting: Combat bead covering the POA for a DOA at the POI.



The .450 Thumper(s) were chambered by Rusty McGee, using a PT&G .338 Lapua Magnum reamer with a .45-bore pilot in a McGowen barrel, standard headspace gages for .338 LM.
Neck and throat were done with a SAAMI .458 WM reamer, inserted to maximum chamber length of 2.720", for 2.700" brass maximum.

Neck length is 0.469" for 2.700" brass, 0.459" for 2.690" brass length.



.450 Thumper the First:





With that 22"-barreled rifle and a 2.5X Leupold scope, at 74*F, using RL-15 and the 450-grain North Fork Soft Point, 5-yd velocities, 3-shot averages:

98.0 gr >>> 2545 fps sd = 5 fps
99.0 gr >>> 2556 fps sd = 3 fps
100.0 gr >>> 2581 fps sd = 5 fps
101.0 gr >>> 2590 fps sd = 8 fps
102.0 gr >>> 2598 fps sd = 5 fps

Accuracy was best with the 98.0 gr RL-15, 0.31 MOA, three into one hole at 50 yards.
Groups opened up just a little at 99.0 and 100.0 grains but were one-holers again on the 50-yard target for 101.0 and 102.0 grains.
Well over 2600 fps for the 102.0 gr load if corrected to MV.
KE of 450-grainer at 2600 fps = 6754 ft-lbs.

.450 Thumper the Second had a 25" skinny barrel:



The point of it all ? As Tom Siatos said in the 1973 G&A ANNUAL in his article "The .460 G&A Goes to Africa":

The shooting world needs another wildcat cartridge about as much as we need another "Federal Gun Control Act." ...
... So why a wildcat .458 load? No other reason than just the satisfaction and fun of developing it, putting it together and finally
using it in the field. Afterall, isn't this what it's all about."

Exactly the same can be said about the .458 WM+.
The .458 WM+ is not far behind .450 Thumper ballistics in the same weight and length rifle.
The critter will never know the difference, but the hunter will.
He will get thumped less.

Time of Flight of 450-gr TSX at 2450 fps MV to 1125-yard gong = 2.511 seconds
Time of sound return from 1125-yard gong to gunner500's ears = 3 seconds.
5.511 seconds from trigger pull to music of the .458 WM+.
Please do not take this as some kind of challenge, gunner500.
You got nuthin' to prove regarding your musical abilities.
Glad to hear that you hear well, so far.
I might need a hearing aid before you do.
I've been on the lookout for an ear horn to use with my left ear.
Right-handed long gun shooting seems to have muffled my left ear a bit.
I blame that childhood shotgun shooting without muffs or plugs.
We just didn't know any better back then.
You might want to cock your right ear towards the gong about 5 seconds after you shoot, what ?

Ron,

I used to be able to get an inch at 100 yards with my M70 Super Grade 458 and Lyman receiver sight. Those rifles were drilled and tapped and the wood cut down to expose the screw holes.

The key to iron sights is the aiming mark.

A bloke that is good with ring foresight would equal a scope unless it was a bench rest rifle.

Sir Mike,

Oh yeah, I believe you.
Of course I could do better than 2" at 50 yards with aperture sights. I should have said "open express sights."

Sharpsguy can do it with a copper penny front sight and an open rear ladder slider.
He has "Ted Williams & Chuck Yeager Eyes."

That'll work Sir, i'll call him in the morning, will also send you pics of some targets and a Cape Buffalo and Zebra I slew with my little 45-70 Shiloh with 530gr paper patch bullets over 76gr KIK 3FG,, you know, a large deposit was paid for a hunt up on the Limpopo last Jan 2020, the kung fu flu screwed the pooch on that deal, fine, upstanding and Honorable U.S, Service Man Outfitter is going to honor our deal, I need to take Wife and my 458 Win Mag+ up there this fall, iron sights and ready to go with both 450gr TSX and 500gr TBSS, should a 40 inch or better Buffalo reside there, i'll put him in the salt!

It'll be a fun test, I don't look to have any 500gr TBSS's for viewing.

Good deal, gunner500,

I sure liked Bob's blog of Feb. 6, 2021: "The .458 Winchester Magnum – achieving any hunting demands – P3"

For words of wisdom click here:

http://www.bigbores.ca/

Feral pigs have invaded Ontario !

Sir Jerry,

So, we are awaiting photo documentation of your feats like those of sharpsguy with BPCR in Africa and elswhere.
Don't forget to ask him if he is OK with putting up his photos too, the ones I already have, at this thread,
to further the Crusade for Truth.
Exception to rules of Knighthood for sharpsguy, automatic for him: Sir Bill.
The .458 WM and .458 WM+ can be loaded to duplicate the feats of sharpsguy's BPCR.
That is magnificence to aspire to with practice and luck,
even if mere mortals have to use scoped rifles and smokeless powder pushing PC-painted, gaschecked, cast bullets.
After that they can try the BP and paper-patched bullets in the .458 WM+ and ballistic twin the .45-70 Elko Magnum.

Hello Sir Riflecrank, just got off the phone with sharpsguy, he's re-habing a little back surgery procedure complete with two rounds per day of physical therapy, You have his blessing to post any and all the pics he sent you, perked him right up, he hopes to be home in a few days, i'll get you a couple pics took from computer and text em to you here shortly.

Thanks again sir.

And Thanks for Sir Bob's link too, will read when I get caught up.

He sure can shoot.

Ya, piggy wiggys in Canada. Bang bang.
Good write up by Sir Bob.
It would be a good test for the moderate velocity 400ish gr bullet @ 2150 fps.

Yes Sir Bob's loads are like a 450/400 NE 3" in effect, from his .458 WM, 400-grainer at 2150 fps, very nice.
Sir Jerry has some BPCR loads that duplicate the sort of loads that Selous used in Africa for the Big Five, from his .461 Gibbs Farquharson.

(Aside: The .461 Gibbs No. 1 original load was a 480-gr paper-patched with 85 gr of BP for about 1300 fps in the mid to late 1870s.
That duplicated the .577/.450 Martini-Henry.
Same as the .45-70 ballistics of a sharpsguy +500-yard African plains game load.
About 1881, Selous was most fond of the 540-gr PP bullet with 75 gr of BP, and he even used a 360-gr PP bullet with 90 grains of BP for the soft-skinned stuff.
By 1882 the .461 Gibbs No. 2 was in vogue, using 570-gr PP bullets with 90 gr of BP for about 1350 fps in the longish barrel, +/- 30".
Also by then the 360-gr Express HP & PP bullet got a mere 100 gr of BP for about 1700 fps.)

As you were, here is Sir Jerry/gunner500 demonstrating some loads with paper-patched lead bullets and BPCR with barrel sights.

"About to send 530 gr of paper patched lead into that cape buffalo."



"Putting finisher in buff at PH request."



".45-70 Shiloh, job completed."



"Putting finisher in zebra."



"Another testament to 458 cal, black powder and paper patched lead."



Another place and another time:

"Bison, 212 yards, Shiloh 45-70, 530-gr paper patch."



"Bison afterkill."



Looks like the taste of victory was mighty fine, especially the Scotch whisky, from the looks of the bottles.
I never pass on a Buffalo Trace, bourbon whiskey.

More from Sir Jerry/gunner500:

"Playing with 45-110 bull barrel in massive full value 25 mph winds at 300 yards, 530-gr PP."



"45-110 bull gun in 400 yard variable winds, 530-gr PP."



"45 3-1/4 at 300 yards, 500-gr gov. bullet."



"45 3-1/4 700 yard gong, 500-gr gov. bullet."



"And when all the stars align, 3 at 400 yards, 45-70, 530-gr PP, so damn nice."



How about the 570-ish grainers in a 45-70 lever action ?
Loaded with BP, it still fully penetrates a 55-gallon steel drum filled with water,
bulges the barrel ends and buries the bullet in a tree behind the barrel:







I would have to review my notes to say anymore about it, but gunner500 might elaborate a bit on that last load.

I have an NOE mould for a 600-gr FNGC (WW alloy) that might come out at 570-gr cast in my hardball alloy.
The mould also has hollow pointing capability and three sets of HP studs that vary from just a dimple to pretty deep.
I'll get to it eventually, imitating Selous' loads with the .458 WM+.
More of the stuff from the BPCR Masters, gunner500 and sharpsguy, tomorrow.

Sir Bill Bagwell has long been a crusader for truth about the BPCR and hunting.
His favored hunting load with 45-70 is for a 480-ish-grain FN bullet at about 1300 fps,
and he also used a 45-110 and heavier bullets.
The .458 WM is equivalent to a "45-98 Sharps Belted 2.5-Inch."
I made up that last bit of nomenclature.
It is obvious that any proud .458 WM shooter could use the .458 WM to recreate the ballistics of Bagwell and Selous,
for fun and filling the freezer.

Mrs. Bagwell can shoot too: