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Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: MarineHawk] #15830987 02/24/21
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Jordan Smith Offline
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Originally Posted by MarineHawk
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Bottom line is, kinetic energy is necessary for the bullet to do its work, but due to the myriad of variables involved in killing effectiveness and the use of kinetic energy to deform tissue, is a poor metric of ‘killing power’. A better indicator is to simply use a bullet that can penetrate to the vitals, and make sure it impacts with enough velocity to expand properly.


I agree. KE tells you somewhat how much the bullet can do, but the size, shape, and construction of the bullet and the type of material it impacts tells you how much of that energy may put to good use. It's also not the KE at the impact that matters as much as the KE at the impact minus the KE, if any, of the exiting projectile. Also, a fair amount, I don't know how much or how to calculate it, of the kinetic energy is converted into heat energy, rather than structural damage. Logically, I think, more of that would happen with high-velocity impacts. That's just one of the factors that limits the value of relying on KE alone for hunting effectiveness. However, there does seem to be a rough correlation between KE and damage. I don't think it's a coincidence that a bullet propelled by a 30-378 Wby blows stuff up a lot more violently than a similar-typed bullet out of a .223 Win., and the former produces about 4 times as much KE as the latter.



I agree. One of the many reasons that KE is a poor metric for "killing power" is that some of that energy is converted into heat energy, sound energy, etc, and the exact amounts are non-deterministic and nearly impossible to predict.

As you correctly point out, KE is a measure of the potential of the bullet to do damage, but the correlation between KE and killing effectiveness, while existent, is minimal.

BP-B2

Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: gssixgun] #15830994 02/24/21
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Originally Posted by gssixgun
Originally Posted by smallfry
Originally Posted by GregW
All I can add to this thread is that IME, the proportion of folks citing energy as some magic killing threshold is usually inversely related to actually killing, on average....

This thread needs some coyote hunter ballistic tables.....grin...


So true.
The axiom is an invented comfort for those who need answers without experience. Pretty meaningless to the thousands that are successful every year and are below it.


Why is it a point of pride to be below that threshold, really why is that something to brag about ???

The threshold is invented, and thousands of people are successful taking game every year decade after decade below it and not even aware of it.

Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: Judman] #15830995 02/24/21
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Why is it a point of pride to be below that threshold, really why is that something to brag about ???

Same folks who fish for large gamefish with 2-pound test leaders..... LOL!


Life Member NRA, RMEF, American Legion, MAGA. Not necessarily in that order.
Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: gssixgun] #15831003 02/24/21
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Originally Posted by gssixgun
Originally Posted by smallfry
Originally Posted by GregW
All I can add to this thread is that IME, the proportion of folks citing energy as some magic killing threshold is usually inversely related to actually killing, on average....

This thread needs some coyote hunter ballistic tables.....grin...


So true.
The axiom is an invented comfort for those who need answers without experience. Pretty meaningless to the thousands that are successful every year and are below it.


Why is it a point of pride to be below that threshold, really why is that something to brag about ???

For many people, it is not a point of pride. The point being made here is simply that impact energy that doesn't meet this arbitrary minimum has about as much to do with killing effectiveness as what you ate for breakfast this morning. There are other variables that have a much stronger correlation with killing effectiveness, like bullet expansion, bullet placement, penetration, etc.

Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: Jordan Smith] #15831051 02/24/21
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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Originally Posted by smallfry
Originally Posted by GregW
All I can add to this thread is that IME, the proportion of folks citing energy as some magic killing threshold is usually inversely related to actually killing, on average....

This thread needs some coyote hunter ballistic tables.....grin...


So true.
The axiom is an invented comfort for those who need answers without experience. Pretty meaningless to the thousands that are successful every year and are below it.


Why is it a point of pride to be below that threshold, really why is that something to brag about ???

For many people, it is not a point of pride. The point being made here is simply that impact energy that doesn't meet this arbitrary minimum has about as much to do with killing effectiveness as what you ate for breakfast this morning. There are other variables that have a much stronger correlation with killing effectiveness, like bullet expansion, bullet placement, penetration, etc.



Or the hunters ability to get to the actual point of actually pulling a trigger and worrying about the impact "energy"....


- Greg

Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
IC-A

Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: Jordan Smith] #15831057 02/24/21
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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith

For many people, it is not a point of pride. The point being made here is simply that impact energy that doesn't meet this arbitrary minimum has about as much to do with killing effectiveness as what you ate for breakfast this morning. There are other variables that have a much stronger correlation with killing effectiveness, like bullet expansion, bullet placement, penetration, etc.


The 1500 fp does not discount all those factors, in fact in enhances them so your argument is irrelevant, it was never about an absolute it was always just a recommendation along with all other factors...




Last edited by gssixgun; 02/24/21.

V/R

Very Respectfully - Glen
Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: GregW] #15831067 02/24/21
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Originally Posted by GregW


Or the hunters ability to get to the actual point of actually pulling a trigger and worrying about the impact "energy"....


If a hunter hasn't figured all that out before he is at that point, he has way more issues than Energy


V/R

Very Respectfully - Glen
Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: gssixgun] #15831072 02/24/21
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Originally Posted by gssixgun
Originally Posted by GregW


Or the hunters ability to get to the actual point of actually pulling a trigger and worrying about the impact "energy"....


If a hunter hasn't figured all that out before he is at that point, he has way more issues than Energy




Whoosh, over the head...


- Greg

Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: gssixgun] #15831080 02/24/21
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Originally Posted by gssixgun
Originally Posted by GregW


Or the hunters ability to get to the actual point of actually pulling a trigger and worrying about the impact "energy"....


If a hunter hasn't figured all that out before he is at that point, he has way more issues than Energy




Put this another way. If I want a hunt to be successful, my load's impact energy calculations are about the 1,326th item I'm worrying about...


- Greg

Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: GregW] #15831107 02/24/21
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Been waiting for the 10,000 word response.

Originally Posted by GregW
This thread needs some coyote hunter ballistic tables.....grin...

IC-B

Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: GregW] #15831124 02/24/21
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Guessing this will be lost as well.

Originally Posted by GregW
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Originally Posted by GregW


Or the hunters ability to get to the actual point of actually pulling a trigger and worrying about the impact "energy"....


If a hunter hasn't figured all that out before he is at that point, he has way more issues than Energy




Put this another way. If I want a hunt to be successful, my load's impact energy calculations are about the 1,326th item I'm worrying about...

Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: GregW] #15831126 02/24/21
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Originally Posted by GregW
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Originally Posted by GregW


Or the hunters ability to get to the actual point of actually pulling a trigger and worrying about the impact "energy"....


If a hunter hasn't figured all that out before he is at that point, he has way more issues than Energy




Put this another way. If I want a hunt to be successful, my load's impact energy calculations are about the 1,326th item I'm worrying about...


Then I suspect your shot would be about as on target as your statement .... Whoosh right over the head

But then again I might be reading you wrong


V/R

Very Respectfully - Glen
Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: Judman] #15831148 02/24/21
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Start at 30-06 Springfield then go backward, then go forward. It’s all about the bullet.

Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: WAM] #15831154 02/24/21
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Because sometimes that’s what it takes to get a dead drift.

Jud has the dead drift down pretty good.

Originally Posted by WAM
Same folks who fish for large gamefish with 2-pound test leaders..... LOL!

Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: Rossimp] #15831176 02/24/21
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Originally Posted by Rossimp
Start at 30-06 Springfield then go backward, then go forward. It’s all about the bullet.


See?! Somebody else gets it.

This thread is hysterical. I haven’t thought about energy as it translates into killing a critter in decades......


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: WAM] #15831369 02/24/21
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Originally Posted by WAM
Why is it a point of pride to be below that threshold, really why is that something to brag about ???

Same folks who fish for large gamefish with 2-pound test leaders..... LOL!



If you're talking about judman, he's using a plastic-coated steel leader on this trip.......



A wise man is frequently humbled.

Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: MarineHawk] #15831375 02/24/21
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Originally Posted by MarineHawk
Originally Posted by smokepole
In other words, who came up with the 1500 ft-lb benchmark ...


Originally Posted by smokepole
Marinehawk: These have been hashed over ad nauseum here so I know who proferred the magical benchmarks, but that's not really the question. ...
So go ahead numbnuts, see if you can answer the question.

PS, Marinehawk I actually bought that book and I've got to say, what a disappointment. ...


You did ask that question, and I dispassionately answered it. You never said you already knew who came up with the numbers. You asked "who came up with the 1500 ft-lb benchmark."



Bullshit, you edited the quite and left off the rest. And if you go back and read where I first asked the question, it was "what is it based on."



A wise man is frequently humbled.

Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: gssixgun] #15831391 02/24/21
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Originally Posted by gssixgun
Originally Posted by smokepole
Less than you have on this thread alone.


Ooooo what a retort, it is so intelligent and well written


Yes, it was but more importantly, it hit the mark.



A wise man is frequently humbled.

Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: gssixgun] #15831500 02/24/21
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Jordan Smith Offline
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Originally Posted by gssixgun
Originally Posted by Jordan Smith

For many people, it is not a point of pride. The point being made here is simply that impact energy that doesn't meet this arbitrary minimum has about as much to do with killing effectiveness as what you ate for breakfast this morning. There are other variables that have a much stronger correlation with killing effectiveness, like bullet expansion, bullet placement, penetration, etc.


The 1500 fp does not discount all those factors, in fact in enhances them so your argument is irrelevant, it was never about an absolute it was always just a recommendation along with all other factors...




Ummm, no. It doesn't "enhance" the other relevant variables. As a physicist, I understand the role of energy in complex systems better than most.

Here's another recommendation for you that makes about as much sense as the 1500 ft-lbs minimum: when driving through the mountains, your vehicle should have a recommended minimum of 300 hp at the wheels.

Re: Minimum caliber to hunt elk??... [Re: smokepole] #15831508 02/24/21
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Originally Posted by smokepole
[


Bullshit, you edited the quite and left off the rest. And if you go back and read where I first asked the question, it was strictly "what is it based on."




Sorta like you did also ???


V/R

Very Respectfully - Glen
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