Marinehawk, thanks for taking the time to post Boddington's opinion. I could've saved you the trouble though, I've read it. There's really no firm basis for it, as far as settling on 2,000 ft-lbs, 1,500, or any other round number you can think of. It's all anecdotal and it's just his opinion. He didn't do any kind of systematic study or investigation, he didn't shoot elk and vary the ft-lbs of energy, he didn't record the results or analyze the data to see if or where there was a drop-off in effectiveness.
When Boddington wrote that he was a proponent of big calibers/cartridges for elk and that was the basis for his opinion which as you noted has changed. He was also a gun writer and needed something to write about and generate interest, and as this thread has shown, there's almost no better way to do that than to talk about "minimum elk cartridges."
It literally brings the "experts" like sixpooter out of the woodwork.
But again, thanks for going to the trouble to post it.
Days aside, do you think a resident that comes across a good mature bull that he/she has worked 4 days trying to find is going to have any less desire to get him on the ground than a NR? Whether his/her season is 5 or 20 days, if you have an elk tag in your pocket your goal is to kill a bull, resident/NR has no bearing.
I’ll concede on a long cow hunt, things could be different.
Originally Posted by MarineHawk
Originally Posted by SLM
I know you said your only the messenger, but I quit paying attention to anything he says about elk a long time ago.
In your quotes, he talks about resident hunters like a few knuckleheads here do. When I draw, I have 5 days with a ML or rifle just like most guided hunters. The resident, NR argument is about as idiotic as the energy argument.
It might make sense in some applications. My buddy and I hunted the nine-day season-2 in Colorado a few years ago and could only hunt 5 days because of travel time and work obligations. If we lived there, we could have hunted nine days, and we could have spent a lot more time beforehand scouting the area.
I own 130 acres of mountain property in central Colorado. I’m putting in for a class-B private-land-only cow tag there that goes from Sept. 1 to Jan. 31. If I get it, I will be able to hunt it a fair amount, but not like if I lived there.
I’m moving out there in about 18 months. When I live there, I can hunt it every day for some number of hours and many days all day, for five full months--all within 2/3 of a mile of my house. It can make a difference.
I don’t agree with some of what Boddington says, but I actually try to learn from all experienced hunters’ comments. I am not into the “everyone else is so stupid because they aren’t real hunters like the few of us and they hilariously and stupidly talk about ___" philosophy too much.
If someone ponders the kinetic energy of their bullet, it doesn’t mean that they are a dumbass and aren’t picking an adequate loading, doing physical training, scouting, learning, shooting, preparing, etc. …
I’m sure if you asked nicely he would use smaller words for you.
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Originally Posted by SLM
Sixshooter’, you are in way over your head here arguing ballistics with Jordan, but please continue, it’s entertaining.
HBD Jordan.
By the way, .223 is legal in NM for elk.
Your mean the Physicist that said this "I agree. One of the many reasons that KE is a poor metric for "killing power" is that some of that energy is converted into heat energy, sound energy, etc, and the exact amounts are non-deterministic and nearly impossible to predict."
That alone disqualifies him from the discussion
.223 is legal in Idaho too and if I wanted to kill an elk and not hunt one I can sit on my porch sipping coffee and shoot one dead in the head most mornings from Sept through Jan...Woohoo hunting !!!
Marinehawk, thanks for taking the time to post Boddington's opinion. I could've saved you the trouble though, I've read it. There's really no firm basis for it, as far as settling on 2,000 ft-lbs, 1,500, or any other round number you can think of. It's all anecdotal and it's just his opinion. He didn't do any kind of systematic study or investigation, he didn't shoot elk and vary the ft-lbs of energy, he didn't record the results or analyze the data to see if or where there was a drop-off in effectiveness.
When Boddington wrote that he was a proponent of big calibers/cartridges for elk and that was the basis for his opinion which as you noted has changed. He was also a gun writer and needed something to write about and generate interest, and as this thread has shown, there's almost no better way to do that than to talk about "minimum elk cartridges."
I agree with what you're saying. He did write that back in 2000, and the internets were just getting started back then. I read a lot, but don't necessarily believe it all.
Days aside, do you think a resident that comes across a good mature bull that he/she has worked 4 days trying to find is going to have any less desire to get him on the ground than a NR? Whether his/her season is 5 or 20 days, if you have an elk tag in your pocket your goal is to kill a bull, resident/NR has no bearing.
I’ll concede on a long cow hunt, things could be different.
Honestly, SLM, I don't know. But what Boddington was saying, and I think it could have some merit in some situations, is that some NRs get to hunt elk fairly unregularly, and may have a shorter hunt in an area with which there are less familiar. In that case, they may get to see a lot fewer bulls than a resident. It might be easier for a resident to pass up a bull and wait for tomorrow or next year for a closer shot that the NR would feel compelled to try to take. I'm not saying that's a good way to look at it. For example, now that I have gotten a fair amount of game of various types, I'm a lot more picky and more likely to pass on various shots than I might have been in the past. I shot my first deer at 18 years old 30 minutes into my first deer season when all I had and could afford was a smooth bore Rem 870 with Brenneke slugs. I shot him in the ass at 70 yards. It took him down, but I wouldn't do that today.
Sixshooter’, you are in way over your head here arguing ballistics with Jordan, but please continue, it’s entertaining.
HBD Jordan.
By the way, .223 is legal in NM for elk.
Your mean the Physicist that said this "I agree. One of the many reasons that KE is a poor metric for "killing power" is that some of that energy is converted into heat energy, sound energy, etc, and the exact amounts are non-deterministic and nearly impossible to predict."
That alone disqualifies him from the discussion
Why don't you go ahead and explain what it is about my statement that you have a problem with?
Sixshooter’, you are in way over your head here arguing ballistics with Jordan, but please continue, it’s entertaining.
HBD Jordan.
By the way, .223 is legal in NM for elk.
Your mean the Physicist that said this "I agree. One of the many reasons that KE is a poor metric for "killing power" is that some of that energy is converted into heat energy, sound energy, etc, and the exact amounts are non-deterministic and nearly impossible to predict."
That alone disqualifies him from the discussion
Why don't you go ahead and explain what it is about my statement that you have a problem with?
This should be good.....
- Greg
Success is found at the intersection of planning, hard work, and stubbornness.
Sixshooter’, you are in way over your head here arguing ballistics with Jordan, but please continue, it’s entertaining.
HBD Jordan.
By the way, .223 is legal in NM for elk.
Your mean the Physicist that said this "I agree. One of the many reasons that KE is a poor metric for "killing power" is that some of that energy is converted into heat energy, sound energy, etc, and the exact amounts are non-deterministic and nearly impossible to predict."
That alone disqualifies him from the discussion
Why don't you go ahead and explain what it is about my statement that you have a problem with?
Google's down. He couldn't make heads or tails of it.
The sheer stupidity shown here by the resident "experts" is astonishing, have not seen a worse case of group think in some time other than with politics
Simple question asked by MANY hunters that have never tried to take down an Elk "What do you consider a minimum caliber to hunt one"
Answer in this thread by "Experienced" Elk hunters "Well son this is what I use but you can use anything that goes POP there really is no formula to determine that because we have this here Physicist told us that none of them there formulas work" Sound and Heat energy bahahahaha that was funny
Some of you are so opposed to a tried and true standard, that you went so far as to say .223's can kill elk, Really ??? I can't believe any of you consider yourselves expert hunters, you should be ashamed of those answers. Not one of you can say if you use that 1500 FP standard combined with today's better bullets you would be undergunned, because that simply isn't true. The other fact is that almost every other caliber mentioned in the thread from a 243 to the 45-70 all can meet that standard at a certain range with the right load..
What really amazes me is that not one of you answered it with the right answer when you throw away logic, I mean when it really comes down to it, the easy answer is
The Biggest F'n gun you can shoot accurately
Pics attached, yes I can use a freaking Baseball bat if I want