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Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: LJB] #15889698 03/12/21
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alpinecrick Offline
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Originally Posted by LJB
Originally Posted by alpinecrick


There is a difference between pushing the shoulder back and FL sizing.



Please explain the difference.


Pushing the shoulder back via a FL die (PFLR) or a body die will indeed partially size the case body--how much is generally determined by how far we push the shoulder back. Sizing with a FL die and almost camming over or fully camming over will size the body almost all the way to the web.


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
BP-B2

Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: grovey] #15889751 03/12/21
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Grovey,
BS.

How can they know their RO is .003 or less if their concentricity gauge is collecting dust?

If you like to induce RO by all means use a bushing die. Not all the competitive shooters are using bushing dies. If somebody wants to make accurate hunting ammo I suggest staying away from bushing dies.

I own more Forster dies than you. Redding sizing dies usually make straighter hunting brass than Forster. Forster seater dies usually seat bullets straighter than Redding seaters. The LCD die beats or least matches the other dies, and does it with less effort.

I'll take the advice of somebody who shoots lowly factory rifles or simple custom bbl hunting rifles over the different discipline of competitive shooting with custom rifles and loads built for competition.

I've owned and shot in local (very local) matches with a Stolle action 22PPC. I understand the difference between a hunting rifle and loads, and competition rifle and loads. Some people are always willing to conflate the two.


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: Tahnka] #15889829 03/12/21
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pete53 Offline
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hunting ammo should be full length resized and yes there are reasons ,the main reason safety. now target ammo is it for just range shooting ? or competition ? for range shooting both works fine. the best bench rest competition shooters full length resize ,so what does that tell you ?


LIFE NRA
Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: Tahnka] #15889934 03/12/21
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Come on, man!


Originally Posted by gonehuntin
Give a communist a helicopter ride, he flies for an afternoon. Throw a communist out of a helicopter and he flies for the rest of his life.....



Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: pete53] #15890006 03/12/21
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Originally Posted by pete53
hunting ammo should be full length resized and yes there are reasons ,the main reason safety. now target ammo is it for just range shooting ? or competition ? for range shooting both works fine. the best bench rest competition shooters full length resize ,so what does that tell you ?


I can’t remember the last time I FL sized brass for any of my hunting rifles.........

The chambers in factory rifles are generally so oversized even NK sized brass can sometimes be interchanged between rifles.


Casey

Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
IC-A

Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: pete53] #15892997 03/12/21
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Originally Posted by pete53
hunting ammo should be full length resized and yes there are reasons ,the main reason safety. now target ammo is it for just range shooting ? or competition ? for range shooting both works fine. the best bench rest competition shooters full length resize ,so what does that tell you ?


Nothing

Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: alpinecrick] #15893868 03/13/21
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Originally Posted by alpinecrick
Originally Posted by pete53
hunting ammo should be full length resized and yes there are reasons ,the main reason safety. now target ammo is it for just range shooting ? or competition ? for range shooting both works fine. the best bench rest competition shooters full length resize ,so what does that tell you ?


I can’t remember the last time I FL sized brass for any of my hunting rifles.........

The chambers in factory rifles are generally so oversized even NK sized brass can sometimes be interchanged between rifles.


First time or two I neck size with FL die. After that I FL Size and make the case's fit the chamber they go in. I think this bump the shoulder and Partial sizing discription confuse a lot of people. I use partial but I think some people just don't get it. You cannot bump a shoulder without sizing the whole case to some degree! If you could the base of the shoulder would roll out a bit and you probably couldn't chamber the round again without FL sizing again. Setting up the FL die as directions say to do, re-size's the case to SAMMI spec so that the case will work in every rifle of that cartridge. Partial sizing size's the case to fit a particular chamber only. Then it could go to SAMMI max or if you have a headspace problem, simply match the chamber! Bumping the shoulder simply is nothing more than partial sizing. Many people feel the need to use cute catch words to describe a process, bumping the shoulder is one of them. You can neck size with a FL die but move the shoulder at all and neck sizing ends and you are full length sizing at that point. I'm pretty sure if manufacturer's didn't say to adjust the dies the way they do there would be law suits sooner or later for guy's screwing it up. So the safe way t have people adjust the dies is to SAMMI min spec and make the case fit in all chamber's for that cartridge!

Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: OldTimeHunter] #15894475 03/13/21
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I recall an article by Seyfried about ammo “when it must work (or go bang)”. He mentioned only using fired brass since it has truly been proven. If it’s new and has a flaw that might be found only when it’s fired for the first time.

Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: DonFischer] #15895920 03/13/21
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Originally Posted by DonFischer
Originally Posted by alpinecrick
Originally Posted by pete53
hunting ammo should be full length resized and yes there are reasons ,the main reason safety. now target ammo is it for just range shooting ? or competition ? for range shooting both works fine. the best bench rest competition shooters full length resize ,so what does that tell you ?


I can’t remember the last time I FL sized brass for any of my hunting rifles.........

The chambers in factory rifles are generally so oversized even NK sized brass can sometimes be interchanged between rifles.


First time or two I neck size with FL die. After that I FL Size and make the case's fit the chamber they go in. I think this bump the shoulder and Partial sizing discription confuse a lot of people. I use partial but I think some people just don't get it. You cannot bump a shoulder without sizing the whole case to some degree! If you could the base of the shoulder would roll out a bit and you probably couldn't chamber the round again without FL sizing again. Setting up the FL die as directions say to do, re-size's the case to SAMMI spec so that the case will work in every rifle of that cartridge. Partial sizing size's the case to fit a particular chamber only. Then it could go to SAMMI max or if you have a headspace problem, simply match the chamber! Bumping the shoulder simply is nothing more than partial sizing. Many people feel the need to use cute catch words to describe a process, bumping the shoulder is one of them. You can neck size with a FL die but move the shoulder at all and neck sizing ends and you are full length sizing at that point. I'm pretty sure if manufacturer's didn't say to adjust the dies the way they do there would be law suits sooner or later for guy's screwing it up. So the safe way t have people adjust the dies is to SAMMI min spec and make the case fit in all chamber's for that cartridge!



There is no danger presented when you cannot chamber a cartridge because it needs a shoulder bump or body sizing. Inconvenience, yes...bit no danger (unless you're facing a critter than can eat or trample you). Bottom line: the less you have to reduce the dimensions of a fired case to reload it and make it functional again, the better. And straight necks matter. OTOH, a case reduced in dimensions too much CAN be dangerous.

Last edited by RiverRider; 03/13/21.

Originally Posted by gonehuntin
Give a communist a helicopter ride, he flies for an afternoon. Throw a communist out of a helicopter and he flies for the rest of his life.....



Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: alpinecrick] #15896545 03/14/21
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Originally Posted by alpinecrick
Grovey,
BS.

How can they know their RO is .003 or less if their concentricity gauge is collecting dust?

If you like to induce RO by all means use a bushing die. Not all the competitive shooters are using bushing dies. If somebody wants to make accurate hunting ammo I suggest staying away from bushing dies.

I own more Forster dies than you. Redding sizing dies usually make straighter hunting brass than Forster. Forster seater dies usually seat bullets straighter than Redding seaters. The LCD die beats or least matches the other dies, and does it with less effort.

I'll take the advice of somebody who shoots lowly factory rifles or simple custom bbl hunting rifles over the different discipline of competitive shooting with custom rifles and loads built for competition.

I've owned and shot in local (very local) matches with a Stolle action 22PPC. I understand the difference between a hunting rifle and loads, and competition rifle and loads. Some people are always willing to conflate the two.



Your stuck using 1950's tech, and it seems you always will be. We both know there is more than one way of getting this done, so we'll have agree to disagree. In the end as long as I'm not setting beside them at the range I honestly don't care how someone else reloads. However...I don't like to see someone spread the same old 50+ yr BS on a forum about the merits of neck sizing. But......You skin your cat your way, and I'll skin mine my way. My way just happens to be the way that the best shooters on the planet get it done. I'm ok with that vs some random dude touting his reloading prowess.

IC-B

Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: Tahnka] #15897753 03/14/21
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Some smart people thought the world was flat once upon a time. Things change. One night while going down an internet rabbit hole I found a research paper done where they fired several thousand rounds from a shooting machine. Full length sized,partial full length sized and neck sized. The full length sized rounds were more accurate. I wish I had saved a link. Truth is the target guys have proved it’s more consistent and more accurate. Thats why they do it. The other reason people neck size is to extend brass life. Properly ,key word properly, full length resized brass will last just as long. The other reason they fls is f class is a timed event. Having rounds that wont chamber or chamber hard can cost time on the shooting line. For a hunter who is outdoors in sometimes harsh conditions fls will ensure your brass always chambers. There really is no reason to neck size only other than that is they way you've always done it. If it works for you fine. But truth is truth. The earth is not flat and neck sizing is not better than fls your brass.

Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: Tahnka] #15897903 03/14/21
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My experience says neck sizing makes more accurate loads than my FL sizing experiments. I've only been loading ammo since 1985, and neck sizing for about 15 years though. BTW, the best way to make sure brass fits is to run it through your rifle after neck sizing.....it really isn't that hard to make accurate, foolproof, safe ammo.


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Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: Tahnka] #15898565 03/14/21
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Not real hard to tell who's actually resized and reuse the same pieces of brass multiple times and I don't mean five or six by multiple I'm talking 15 to 20.

Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: Tahnka] #15899961 03/15/21
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Neck size for all my bolt guns until they become a little harder to chamber then a full length, then back to neck sizing. Just dip the case neck in graphite powder and size. Full length is a PITA with case lube and I avoid it if I can. I do full length size for my Number 1s though. This is for hunting rifles not benchrest. To tell the truth I don't really care if my rifles shoot 1/2 inch, 3/4 inch or 1 inch, or even a bit larger. If I full length sized and got 1/2 inch groups and neck sized and got 1 inch groups i'd still neck size because in the hunting field it doesn't matter for me. I'd rather spend time out hunting in the bush than at the range trying to shave 1/4 inch off my group size.

Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: Tahnka] #15899998 03/15/21
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Very interesting reading.Guess I've been doing it all wrong for the past 40 years or so, as I always full length rezized my cases.

Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: mathman] #15900260 03/15/21
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Originally Posted by mathman
I routinely set garden variety FL dies to produce two or three thousandths shoulder setback. While this doesn't size the case as much as the die may be capable of doing, it does size the entirety of the case and so is full length sizing. It's just not full length sizing more than necessary.

It appears you've wound yourself up into a state of righteous indignation or the like over terminology.


I do not use NK dies for anything period. Growing up in Western Kansas in the 60's shooting prairie dogs, I owned three varmint rifles, 222, 22-250, and a 243. The 22-250 was custom built, the other two were factory rifles. I could notice at that time that NK sizing was not nearly as accurate as FL. Later on I purchased run out tools and it proved to me that NK cases have far more run out. I only bump the shoulder back .002 or .003 and use a bushing die.

On the other hand, on my hunting rifles I take for big game I full length size all of my cases as I don't want to have any chambering problem when hunting Deer and Elk.

Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: Tahnka] #15900269 03/15/21
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Boy, this sure went to schitt in a hurry!

FWIW, I read about partial full-length sizing years ago, and have always sized just enough that my brass chambers with little or no effort. That’s always been accomplished before the die runs hard into the shellholder. When I began buying new brass instead of just refilling my factory ammo cases, I used the same setting, but now I usually just run the case over the expander to round it out. Some cartridges may get sized in a Lee collet die. I have case gauges for everything I load, and new brass just falls into them. Some of my PFLS cases go in all the way, but a few don’t quite. Mostly, I’m checking to make sure none are too short, headspace-wise, or too long in the neck, which would require trimming. With the case in the gauge base-down on the bench, I run a machinist’s pocket ruler across the top; if it catches, the case is too long. Cases that don’t go all the way in get checked for length with a caliper set as a snap-gauge.

What I do works for me, my ammo shoots well, and I’ve yet to blow anything up. Don’t use pick-up brass, except for setting up dies and dummy rounds. Don’t anneal yet, as four firings is all I’ve asked of any of my brass so far, but if the nonsense continues, who knows? I have plenty right now, probably enough to use up all my primers and bullets, and maybe a barrel or two. In normal times brass is reasonably cheap, so I don’t worry about squeezing more loadings out of it like some do.


What fresh Hell is this?
Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: Tahnka] #15900282 03/15/21
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I buy FL dies, I think I own one neck size die that came in a 3 die set I bought used.

Mike


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Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: WEL] #15900305 03/15/21
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[quote=WEL]Some smart people thought the world was flat once upon a time. Things change. One night while going down an internet rabbit hole I found a research paper done where they fired several thousand rounds from a shooting machine. Full length sized,partial full length sized and neck sized. The full length sized rounds were more accurate. I wish I had saved a link. Truth is the target guys have proved it’s more consistent and more accurate. Thats why they do it. The other reason people neck size is to extend brass life. Properly ,key word properly, full length resized brass will last just as long. The other reason they fls is f class is a timed event. Having rounds that wont chamber or chamber hard can cost time on the shooting line. For a hunter who is outdoors in sometimes harsh conditions fls will ensure your brass always chambers. There really is no reason to neck size only other than that is they way you've always done it. If it works for you fine. But truth is truth. The earth is not flat and neck sizing is not better than fls your brass. [/quote

^^^THIS ^^^ very true thanks for posting this,Pete53


LIFE NRA
Re: Full Length vs Neck Sizing [Re: pete53] #15900432 03/15/21
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My best old-fart guess is that it’s pretty much dependent on a number of factors, and one test proves nothing, except perhaps for that barrel. I think that presenting the bullet to the rifling as straight and centered as possible is the goal, and getting there may be accomplished in different ways with different barrels. It’s probably easier in match-grade chambers.


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