Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Enter the breechloader, by the telling of W. W. Greener that follows.
Magic Metford rifling morphed from 3-groove to 5-groove (shown below),
and finally 7-groove in the final days of the BPCR being unbeatable by early smokeless rifles, at long range target shooting:







Clarification/correction: John Rigby may have started working on his pet project (.450 NE ) in 1889, but he was not forced to retire from his "day job" overseeing the Enfield arsenal
until 1894 when he turned 65, mandatory retirement age for government employees.
By then he had shepherded the .303 British rifle cartridge into the smokeless age.
The young whippersnapper George C. Gibbs was about 31 years younger than John Rigby.

Jonathan Kirton is the master collector and shooter of original .461 Gibbs rifles.
He does make reference to George A. Hoyem's work:



Here Hoyem goes a bit astray in not noting that 0.453" was the diameter of the .461 Gibbs slick before it was paper-patched up to bore diameter of 0.461",
making groove diameter 0.470" if rifling is 0.0045" deep.



Hoyem makes reference (first excerpt above) to the work of F. C. Selous:

More from Master Kirton:

W. W. Greener tells the tale of young George C. Gibbs who cleaned up in competitions with his .461 Gibbs No. 1 and No. 2 using paper-patched bullets,
until his 1894 introduction of electroplating of copper onto lead bullets for the .461 Gibbs No. 1 BPCR.
That was copied by most other shooters in 1895, though the pesky smokeless rifles were showing up then too:

Back to Kirton and I will quit for the night: Note one cheeky fellow below with a Sharps rifle !









As great as George C. Gibbs was, I will yet give the nod to John Rigby as the greatest rifleman ever for the sum total of his rifle accomplishments in all spheres.

What a rich, fascinating and cool hobby we have that ALL knowledge will never be gained, a 100% guarantee against boredom! ; ]


Sir Ron, i guess you're aware that unless specified by customer for a 5 or 7 degree all modern Sharps rifles have 45 degree chamber leade? any guesses from whence that came? you got it, the grand 458 Winchester Magnum, sadly, the main reason is iirc near 85 percent of new manufactured Sharps rifles will fire smokeless and jacked bullets, it's a liability/safety factor for the manufacturers.

Those apples will make a fine pie.

And we may have touched on it before, but my 44-77 Sharps looks an awful lot like the 461 Gibbs NO 1.

Amen. And those cartridges were contemporaries of each other for the shootin'matches of early 1870's.
When John Rigby finally gave up on muzzleloaders he adopted the .45-2.4" Sharps and .45-2.6" Sharps cartridges as his "Match" cartridges.

Speaking of John Rigby and the Irish muzzleloader clingers at Creedmoor in 1873,
John Rigby was the star, his scores were tops, and the Americans would have lost with their Sharps and Rolling Blocks
if one Mr. Millner had not fired one of his shots at the wrong target at 1000 yards.
Just retold as an excuse to mention the muzzleloader of John Rigby:

36" octagon barrel
0.451" bore diameter
0.480" groove diameter (!)
1:18" twist, constant, no gain twist
8 grooves, grooves and lands of equal width, "one-half the original surface untouched in rifling"

Projectile:
Hardened lead, 530-grains weight, paper-patched, BOL 1.42"
"The hollow in rear of the bullet is filled with plaster of Paris, which remains in its place during the flight of the bullet,
and prevents the paper, lubrication, etc. from being lodged in the cavity. This forms the Mr. Rigby's patent."

Charge: "86 grains Curtis and Harvey's No. 6, at all distances.

Lubrication: "An octagonal tallow wad, lightly tempered with wax."

IIRC, rifle weight limit at Creedmoor 1873 was 10 pounds, whether muzzleloader or BPCR.

Above Rigby Creedmoor muzzleloader details from this book:



Book is too big to fit on scanner, that is a partial cover jacket shot.
It is an excellent book. The rest of the book review consists of excerpts with my comments painted upon them.









From page 28 of Calabi et al:

For emphasis:



And we can celebrate the past by making it shoot like a .451-bore Rigby Match muzzleloader or .461 Gibbs No. 1 or No. 2 BPCR, or .45-70 to .45-110 Saint Bagwell Sharps.

The Craftsmanship and Shooting Awards:

John Rigby greatest Rifleman.

Bill Bagwell greatest Knife&Rifleman, he really had it covered.

Sir Bob's latest blog today is a great one.

https://bigborefan.wordpress.com/

A sample from 3/20/2021 entry, a very tough test medium was used here:



Projectile performance is critical during all aspects of ballistics, whatever the firearm used.
All else goes for naught if terminal effects go squat.
A selection of Bob's .458-caliber projectiles:



We could certainly add some more to that impressive lineup, such as 600-grain jacketed and cast at +2000 fps down to 250-grain monometal at +3000 fps,
Even snake shot capsules borrowed from the .45 Long Colt or 730-gr Ranger Ricks at 1080 fps subsonic to +1500 fps just for kicks.
The .458 Wincester Magnum is truly the most versatile sporting rifle ever conceived, with the broadest range of projectiles possible.
I have not yet settled on the ultimate VLD design for sheets of plywood at 2000 yards.
Any help there would be appreciated.
We know they used to shoot at 2000 yards with .451"-bore muzzleloaders.
3-foot circles at 1000 yards were a piece of cake. See John Rigby muzzleloader load with 530-gr paper-patched bullet and 86 grains of BP.
As you were, at Bob's blog:

Bob in Africa with Brenneke slugs in a 12-ga shotgun as backup for lion or buffalo while learning bushcraft from his son's tracker.
Elephant might present a worry ?:



Bob on safari in Canada, armed with .458 Winchester Magnum CZ 550 Magnum and proper bullet, no worries at all, even if an elephant surprised him:

John Rigby's invention of the .450 x 3-1/4" Nitro Express occurred during the period from 1889 to final success in November 1897.
That was a quantum leap beyond the .450 x 3-1/4" Black Powder Express rifle that it was based upon.

His Majesty's government made John Rigby the Superintendent of the Small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock in 1887 at about age 56.
He shepherded the .303 Lee-Enfield out of the BPCR Martini-Henry role into the smokeless bolt-action repeater.
His baby became the primary battle rifle and cartridge for the UK through 2 World Wars, its service lasting until 1957.
John Rigby died at age 87 on 1 November 1916, during WWI, early Downton Abbey period.
Sorry, I could not resist whistling past the graveyard.
R.I.P. John Rigby, 1829-1916 A.D.

Before John Rigby, the .450 x 3-1/4" BPE was the favored deer rifle.
He beefed up the brass and bullets, used Cordite instead of BP, and a new and stronger crucible steel for the barrels.
Voila ! The favored dangerous game rifle had arrived.
All others would be compared to it thereafter.
There is still nothing better. A bigger bore is useful only as a placebo treatment of the neurotic condition of bore envy.

Here is the deer rifle that became an elephant rifle, in book review format using the work of Graeme Wright,
his pressure tested data for the BPE:









That is an excellent book. The general chapters cover many aspects of the care and feeding of double rifles and single shots firing same ammo.

Very interesting how 20 grains of SR4759 plus 60 grains of BP is equivalent to 120 grains of BP with similar pressures for both loads.
Very low pressure with .458-caliber cast bullets of 320 to 358 grains and a 350-gr jacketed soft nose.
Only 6.7 to 8.1 tpsi, whereas the historical pressures for similar bullets, BP charges, barrel lengths, and velocities were 11.0 to 12.0 tpsi.
The imperial tonne or "long ton" is 2240 lbs. 12.0 tpsi = 26,880 psi.
The duplexed 358-gr cast bullet at 1700 fps has a pressure of 7.2 tpsi = 16,128 psi.

1 grain of the smokeless "pistol powder" substitutes for 3 grains of BP.
Cork wads 3/8" thick sit between bullet and powder.
Must be no or very little compression of powder.
By total weight of propellants, the duplexed BP load is 25% smokeless.
Seems like a high percentage of smokeless by weight might be helpful with light bullets ?
Kirton recommended a load of 5 grains SR4759 plus 85 grains of GOEX FFg in the .461 Gibbs with 540-gr bullet.
That is a bit over 5% smokeless by weight, worked well with the heavier bullet, for about 100-gr equivalency to BP.

The old Curtis & Harvey No. 6 BP must have given higher pressures (and velocities ? ) than GOEX.
GOEX is apparently easily and safely spiffed up with SR4759, eliminates most of the BP fouling,
and gives lower pressure than the old BP loads !

Good .458 WM lowball loads from fortunecookie45LC,
this time for comparison to a Bubba's highball load,
as previously mentioned, now some further observations.
All are </= 3.340" COL:





The factory rifle used for the above probably has a 0.459" groove diameter and standard 1:14" twist.
Regardless of any accuracy node due to barrel vibration,
regardless of alloy hardness or type of lube or coating,
a .459" diameter and 500-grain bullet would be expected to do better
than a .458" diameter 340-grainer.

IMHO, any .459"-diameter 400-ish grainer makes a nice plinker in a SAAMI .458 WM as long as velocity stays below 1400 fps.
That can be done with 26.0 to 30.0 grains of AA-5744 and the store-bought Berry's of Utah 405-gr/.459", blue-lubed, hardcast, plain-based, FN.
Actual weight of that bullet average 409 grains in the batch I bought. I reckon they are the commercial "hardball" alloy.

409-gr/.459" at 3.080" COL, 24" barrel:
26.0 gr AA-5744 (no filler) >>> 1182 fps, 5-shot Sd = 10 fps, 1.2-MOA 3-shot
30.0 gr AA-5744 (no filler) >>> 1376 fps, 5-shot Sd = 3 fps, 1.4-MOA 3-shot
At 1578 fps the same bullet was keyholing.

For high velocity cast bullet loads in the .458 WM: Hardcast, gas check, PC paint, and 0.461" sized.
Those can be sub-1.0-MOA accurate at 2200 fps from 400-ish-grainer to 540-ish-grainer.
Use COL in the 3.0" to 3.6" range, tuned to bullet length and shape.

A more thorough review of the Ranger Rick load scarfed from Youtube:















Maybe Bubba had his chronograph too close to the muzzle
and was getting some unreliable readings from the muzzle blast ?

Brainfart. Creedmoor 1874, not 1873, was the big one.
The American NRA's first "Annual Matches" were held at Creedmoor on Long Island, NY in 1873.
The Irish team was there in 1874 for the first international match.
That is why we call that iconic rifle a Sharps 1874 even though it was introduced in 1871.
I need some more history lessons.

I had a .458 WM at one time in a M70 SG... Never fired it.. Sold it before I tried it.. I understand it DO pack a wallop..

Elsewhere on this forum, there is a mention of a couple articles by Phil Shoemaker on Old Ugly: Alaska Guide Builds a Modern BACKUP RIFLE
Ron may appreciate this quote from the Fall 2011 Rifle Loony News article:
"The fame of the 458 Lott grew as other writers, some with admittedly no experience with the .458 Win, began parroting each other until the .458 Win was regarded as little more than +P 45-70."

Buy a donkey for that, Hannay. I posted there.

Why have you not claimed your Knighthood ?

Sir Jerry has been doing great charity work for the Crusade for Truth About the .458 Winchester Magnum,
contributing these to the cause:



I reckon those will need some smacking with BP run through a .458"-grooved .458 Winchester Magnum
just to show how incredibly versatile the .458 WM is.
First with a scope, then maybe get the comb of the stock near heel inletted for a longrange vernier sight for back position shooting.

From the Rigby book by Calabi et al:



Midrange trajectory was about 70 feet and the bullet took about 3 seconds to get to 1000 yards.

Three Sharps 1874's and three Remington 1871 Rolling Blocks beat six muzzleloaders from the UK.
American Henry Fulton with a Remington RB had the highest score of all, beating John Rigby's highest score for the Irish.
Sharps claim to fame was greater safety than the RB in the days of sensitive primers exploding before the action was locked, on rolling the block.
Sharps and Remingtons were of equal accuracy.

From Frank Sellers:



The Irish loss to the Americans at Creedmoor was actually their highpoint against the Americans in internationl tournaments.
After that the Americans widened their margins of victory for the USA.
The learning curve was steep, teamwork helped greatly on doping the wind.
Thank Irishman Millner for making a bullseye on the wrong 900-yard target and losing 4 points.
And thank the American Col. John Bodine for making a bullseye and scoring four points on the last shot of the day, at 1000 yards.
He did it with a bloody hand wrapped in a handkerchief, just minutes after an accident with a newfangled glass gingerale bottle.
They called him "Old Reliable" ever after that, even though he was shooting a Remington !
Maybe Mr. Millner had an accident with a bottle of green beer before letting fly at the wrong target ?
Hey, I am mostly Irish. I like beer too, and Scotch Whisky, and Bourbon Whiskey.

Sir Ron, great info, i would have thought it impossible to over pressure anything 458 Win Mag+ with H-4895, we see 700+ grains of bullet will get it done, have to wonder if that scud missile would remain stable in animal tissue and penetrate straight, if it does, 1550 fps would be mucho plenty.

You're most welcome for the bullets and playing card wads, i'm no 'wad stack' guru/experimenter, to me a wad need to protect the base of the bullet and keep lubes from contaminating the powder charge, these coated playing card wads to that with aplomb, plus, at only 10 thou each, they don't waste a chit-ton of powder capacity in starved cases such as the 45 and 50-70 govt.

Slightly off topic, but just yesterday i was able to easily compress 70gr drop-tubed OE 3F with a playing card wad .650 thou in a new full length sized Starline 50-70 case, the 530gr grease groove bullet measures 1.128 long, closed the case mouth to .520 thou with a taper crimp die, if i'm able to get an accurate 1200 fps, the stubby 50 will be the little hammer that can, the 30 twist barrel will easily stabilize a 1.128 bullet.

Sorry for the ramble, just having fun.

Plus, You may be the man with 1000 bullet moulds, that said, if either bullet i sent you shoots extremely well, say the word and i'll ship the moulds to you for casting as many as you please.