Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics how was any of this possible without FFP?!?

Are you back on board with Leupold now?

Yep. That's all that matters.

cumminscowboy - you're an insufferable whiny beotch.

While I agree that on an unwounded animal you need to make sure to set up properly to ensure a good hit, it’s rare for there to be no time pressure at all. Even at long range, when a good opportunity presents itself, the clock is ticking. At lease IME.

On a wounded critter, time is of the essence, and speed of making follow-up hits certainly does matter.

To your point, the reason that PRS stages are timed events is that they are supposed to simulate practical shooting scenarios in the field.

As is the case with any other piece of gear, every design decision always involves accepting tradeoffs. There's a place for both SFP and FFP and valid arguments for both. One thing that is often cited as a FFP disadvantage is the old "reticle is worthless at low power" anecdote. Sometimes that's true, but not always. It depends entirely on the design of the reticle in question and the zoom ratio of the optic in question. I have several FFP scopes with reticles that I promise you are just as visible at 3X as any SFP hunting duplex reticle, even with illumination off, but certainly more so with illumination on. It all depends on how thick features like the outer bars on the reticle are, how far these bars extend toward the reticle's center, and other reticle features expressly designed to work at both extreme ends of the zoom range. At the same time, these same reticles have thin enough inner bars for extremely precise aiming at the highest magnification. Again, its all a matter of good design.

Another advantage to FFP that is almost never discussed is the fact that it is far more likely to maintain POI when magnification is changed. The reason for this is because in a SFP scope, the reticle is located at the front of the zoom tube & erector, and can be shifted off center with power changes by sliding parts adjacent to it. The higher the magnification selected, the more offset error comes into play if everything isn't perfectly aligned and centered. It requires much tighter mating tolerances of parts to prevent zero shift in a SFP scope. This isn't an issue in most well-designed, quality scopes, but it is possible nonetheless. It isn't possible at all in a FFP scope because the reticle in a FFP scope is located on the objective lens group side of the erector assy, independent of the zoom assy. The target image and the reticle are in the same optical plane, always locked together. In short, a SFP scope may shift POI some with power change, but a FFP scope mechanically cannot, at least not from this cause.

I didn't LOL, I just SMH-ed.

I have read info offered by cc and burns. I also read info by huntsman, atse and scenarshooter. The result was my purchasing a SS 3-9 HD w/ MQ reticle and learning how easy it is to learn a new and better way to improve my shooting,and as a result my hunting.

I killed stuff for a long time w/ irons and sfp scopes but enjoy learning new stuff.

YMMV


mike r

My friends girl friend was with us today. She had only shot a rifle twice before in her life. I had steel set up at 350 yds , 500 yds, and 620 yds. The first 2 were 12" x 12" the one at 620 was 12" x 18". After a tutorial on proper form, and technique, and a couple of dry firings,I turned her loose. The scope was on 7x and she had 3 centered hits at 350. Next was 500 yds, and I set the scope on 10x. She shot 3 more times,with 3 centered hits on the steel. One bullet left.I left the scope on 10x,made the elevation corrections on the turret, and watched her center punch the 620 yd steel. The point of this is how easy this can be with proper technique, and decent equipment. She couldn't believe she could hit targets at that distance. It was pretty cool to watch.. She was shooting my fast twist 243 with a 3x15 SS scope.

Mike R:

So, you're happy with what you ended up with after you disregarded the advice of CC and Burns?

After using a lot of different SFP and FFP through the years, my two favorite all around hunting scopes are the SWFA 3-9 and the Bushie LRHS. Both reticles are superb and are usable throughout their entire X range. Overall, I like well done FFP offerings as they allow the use of the lowest possible X for the shot, which I find to be a big advantage for myriad reasons. Also, l find a reticle that stays the same size to be much simpler and, by extension, less prone to misapplication in times of stress than remembering different subtensions for different X's.

I'm also fond of the 1-6 SWFA. At 1.5x it's like a large aperture peep; at 6x you get the full Milquad. And you get 10 mil per rev on a turret you can run capped or exposed depending on how you plan to use it.

Use whatever you desire, it personall preference. The big deal is we are in the age of mil/mil moa/moa type optics unlike some years ago when optics had a mil reticle and 1/4moa adjustment. Now that was stupid and highly confusing and optics makers sold those goods to us (Leupold and others). Why?

If you like SFP thats great but its simply not true that the current crop of FFP reticles are difficult or too small to see on lower power. Not anymore with some of todays smart reticles. Illumination helps but many reticles today use those "death donoghts" and some have a chevron aiming point in that 3/4 circle. No longer are there shortcomings with some of these new smart designed reticles and the chevron allow for a literal precise aiming point whether on higher or lower power.

Today its not enough to claim FFP has these shorcomings , but SFP is fine if you are used to it. I have and use both but the FFP scopes are an advantage as theyre easier and faster to employ. But this is subjective and is mostly a product of experiance and use. But im thankful for the great FFP optics now available.

Not only the reticle is magnified,but also the target.If the reticle is larger than the target at its lowest power setting it would have problems,but really, are your worried about a 2" target at any hunting yardage?Personally I use a 2nd focal plane scope for hunting and a first for long distance target shooting.Just what I do,neither right or wrong.

Appreciate all the personal hunting expereince cumminscowboy shares...

I've used largely nothing but FFP scopes for hunting for the last 12 years or so - S&B PMII, Leupold Mk6, Leupold Mk4, and Bushnell LRHS.

I live in New Zealand, there are no seasons or limits, so I shoot a reasonable number of animals. All my big game hunting is on public land. I have shot animals from rabbits to large red stags, from 10 to 500+ metres, and I have never yet encountered a situation where I was unable to shoot an animal due to a deficiency in the FFP reticles I use. I have no real interest in pushing long ranges so I have not pursued 600 metre + shots, this is due to personal choice rather than lack of opportunity.

Currently using a 3.5-10x40 Mk4 with TMR and .1mil M5 turrets, a Mk6 3-18x44 with TMR, and a 3-12x Bushnell LRHS. All FFP. All work fine at both high and low magnifications in all light conditions I've encountered while hunting.

I also have likely not had very many situations where the FFP reticle gave me an advantage, however I greatly prefer the reticle remaining a constant size relative to the target. I find SFP reticles too thick on lower magnification for my preference, although it doesn't make a practical difference - I just prefer the finer aiming point of a FFP reticle.

I carry all my scopes on the lowest magnification and often shoot with them that way. For example this week I have shot 2 bull Tahr using my .223 with the Mk4 on it, both at about 60 metres, both in late evening in low light, both offhand shots on low magnification.

The internet of course is the land of absolutes, and Tiny Detail Exaggeration Syndrome.

Nobody cares

Make more films

I have also heard the poi shift with power change on a sfp scope. While I can understand it being possible. I check that when i static test my scopes and have never seen it happen, while checking it. If it did there is no way it’s enough to come close to mattering. Of course scope age, wear and tear, recoil. All that stuff comes into play.

Colony varmint season is coming. Maybe I might wish I had a ffp scope on my rigs. I will pay attention to see how much better I think it might be if I did. I don’t use too high powered of a scope generally. So maybe I will not care.

I hadn't heard of TDES before, but it is so true! Thanks.