I like discussing ideas and although I am a bit set in my ways I’m open to being corrected if a strong case is made.
I don’t consider it my place to debate Christianity with non-believers. If someone asks me an honest question I’ll do my best to give an honest answer. I also try to conduct myself recognizing that non-believers may be lurking who want answers and I don’t want to stand in the way of that person seeing the truth of our Lord and His story.
I really enjoy learning about the different faith traditions that make up historic Christianity. I don’t mind a good back and forth discussion/“argument” if it’s respectful, and do July best to uphold that on my side as well. I have run across a couple individuals here who were believers but violated their own professed convictions constantly when calling me out. To me that is hypocritical and I did not pull any punches in saying so.
I do my best not to offend but occasionally get a little wrapped up in the hostility that creeps into these anonymous debates where a human face isn’t before us. For that I am genuinely sorry.
At the end of the day this is the internet and we shouldn’t take ourselves or especially it too seriously.
Where else does that come from if not His Word, the Bible?
Jesus ‘can’ reveal Himself in any manner He chooses. God doesn’t ‘only’ reveal Himself through the Bible. Jesus isn’t bound by the covers of a book. The fact that none of the apostles, and none of the many early first century followers of Jesus had the Bible clearly didn’t interfere with their salvation, or their ability to have communion with God. Not having a Bible was clearly not an issue with any of em’. Matthew told of Jesus before there ever was ‘the Bible’, so did Mark, so did Luke, so did John, so did Peter, so did James (the brother of Jesus), and so did Paul...all separate accounts of Jesus, independent from one another...centuries before they were ever bound together and included in ‘the Bible’. My perspective anchors to the event of the resurrection rather than the authority of ‘the Bible’. I don’t take what the above men said seriously because their documents are in the Bible; I think their documents were included in the Bible because these men were eyewitnesses and early Jesus followers understood the value of their documents. So where some might choose to cross-examine the Bible, it’d be more appropriate to cross-examine Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, and Paul...all separate accounts of Jesus...independent from one another.
God does reveal Himself through His creation and circumstances to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear. He amazes me every time I take the time to consider Him in what is all around.
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." - Jesus. John 14:21
All the same, He manifests the specifics through His Word. This is why He inspired it, preserved it and circulated it. His disciples published it wherever they went. They did as Jesus did in speaking from the O.T. He was constantly pointing to the Scripture. Example of a common phrase,
John 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"
One if the Holy Spirit's ministries once Christ ascended, was to confirm the teaching and preaching of the disciples with miracles that were evidence to the audience. You know this, of course, because the Scriptures tell us. Once the unbelieving Roman "church fathers" wrote historical accounts, the books were hand copied and circulated among the churches. This was a very important ministry that was established in the O.T. by the Scribes as it was after. Since these were published, that which was obviously miraculous was no longer necessary to give credence to the messages.
Today we have a more sure Word of prophecy than even that which Moses heard audibly upon the mountain where he met with God. Our confidence in Christ comes from His written record .2 Peter 1:18, 19
"And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:"
"If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
I John 5:9...
Aren't we are truly blessed to have even more sure Word of God recorded for us to read. ☕ 🙂 👍📖
I was really headed towards being an atheist, but all the atheists cramming all their unbeliever crap down my throat has really turned me from beimg an atheist. You guys really pissed me off cramming your unreligious crap on me, so i just decided im going to be a bliever instead. Really. Its alls ur fault. U didit. Aint on me. I tried to warn you. Beg me r ill doit. Ok. That settles it.
To hell with yall. Im A Believer As of Now.
I was really headed towards being a believer, but all the believers cramming all their believer crap down my throat, coupled with their very non-Christian forum posts, has really turned me from being a believer. You guys really pissed me off cramming your religious crap on me, so i just decided I'm going to be a nonbeliever instead.
Really. Its all's your fault. You did it. Ain't on me. I tried to warn you. Beg me or I'll do it. Ok. That settles it.
To hell with y'all. I'm a Nonbeliever As of Now.
Actually, some of my post does not reflect my actual thinking, but the point is simply that cramming stuff down people's throats is a two way street. In addition, the self-righteous stuff spouted by a lot of non-righteous people is a big turn off. If the messengers are that messed up, it makes one wonder about the message.
I post some raw stuff. I am a Christian but I've never claimed to be perfect or a good one.
I am probably way too laid back to push my religion on somebody. I should probably do it more. When you think about it, using logic, if there really is only one way to heaven (and I believe there is) then are you not doing your fellows a favor by pushing that way as hard as you possibly can since this life is short and finite whereas eternity is long and infinite? If you could push and prod and berate people into Heaven, shouldn't you? I don't believe you can force somebody to believe. I think belief and faith are a gift and no amount of force from a man, short of God Himself, Jesus, can cause a man to believe.
Non-believers many times IMO, see simple presentation of God's side of things as "pushing religion on them". The world pushes all sorts of alternative religion, including the religion of no religion, off on non-believers every day, yet they fail to see this.
"The god of this world has blinded their eyes." I seem to remember reading that somewhere.
As you said, you can't force someone into belief, not can you badger or harass them into it either. I think the best you can do is give them a reason to think you have something they might want. Bibles are widely available throughout most countries, certainly North America, and churches too. Its not a lack of access that is keeping people away. If Christians really want to do as the Bible says, they should look to their conduct more than their preaching. A "Christian" who behaves badly is not only not going to win any converts, he will actively discourage any possible conversion. How do you think God would feel about that? Many, many Christians would be much farther ahead to make no mention of their religion until such a time that they could conduct themselves in a manner that at the very least won't turn people off.
I'm not as old as some here, but there are a few things I've learned over the years. People who simply are trying to live up to the teachings of Christianity are usually good people, and nice to be around. But, if you meet someone who leads with their religion, making sure you know from the get go that they are Christians and taking every opportunity to remind you of it, there is something wrong. I've seen it too many times, growing up in church and around religious people. In person or online, when i run into one of these folks the alarm bells go off.
Were the likes of Peter and Paul guilty of beating people over the head with the Bible?
Peter and Paul didn’t have ‘the Bible’. Somehow many people have gotten the idea that the Bible is Christianity, and as the Bible goes, so goes Christianity. For me, nothing could be further from the truth. Christianity does not rise and fall on the integrity or the verifiability of the Bible. Christianity preceded the Bible; the reason we have the Bible is because of something that happened. There were many thousands of Christians before ‘the Bible’ ever came along in the 4th century. Jesus told His Jewish followers that their scriptures pointed to Him. He said He was the fulfillment of all in what we call the OT. And some of His followers believed Him, they saw that it lined up with Him and the things they were seeing. They started believing He was the Messiah who was the fulfillment of the Jewish scriptures. And then He was crucified...game over, lights out...clearly He was wrong and they were wrong about Him. And there were no Jesus followers immediately after the Crucifixion. And they no longer believed that Jesus was the son of God when they saw Him die. And then He rose from the dead and the whole thing got started; and suddenly all those Jewish followers went back to those scriptures that Jesus said told of Him and concluded that He was right, they’d lost faith, He was back, they were back, and everything in their scriptures pointed to Him. Christianity preceded the Bible. If you never opened the OT, if you never saw an OT, if suddenly the entire OT vanished from Christianity, it would do nothing to undermine Christianity. Because Christianity began when Jesus rose from the dead, and they recognized He was who He claimed to be. People followed Jesus after the resurrection because of the resurrection. That’s how Christianity got started. It is not near as fragile as many think; it does not hang by a thread of some passage in scripture or by some miracle Jesus performed in the NT, it’s much more sturdier than that. If it was that fragile, Christianity would have never survived the 1st century.
My point was that Jesus as well as the apostles regularly used scripture (Old Testament) to sort of “bible beat” people, especially the Pharisees. Peter called Paul’s writing scripture. I think we still stand on the authority of scripture. How do we follow Christ without following his word? For example, considering the application of scripture in regard to marriage. Maybe I’m too simple minded in my approach.
I find hope and comfort in Proverbs 3 vs 5-6. Trust the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.
when people say this....especially when they refer to some noteworthy or important life event that needs or requires significant effort, they say "well..I'm just going to turn it over to the lord and let him lead me and it's in his hands" (Translate)- PhuQ this, I'm tired of trying and I give up, and if this (event) turns to total horse-Schite then my smugness with religion should persuade anyone watching that I gave it my all...Losers
I have a feeling that this post suffers a good bit in its "translation".
No, no it's accurate. For the longest time people lived a crappy existence that they had no control over, and a pleasant afterlife was the only thing that they had to look forward to, so they fell onto religion. At least then they could make some effort at something and be seen to be doing something. The churches were able to make profit out of this too - so it was a win-win.
I have a feeling this post suffers a good bit in its bias and interpretation.
...Jesus as well as the apostles regularly used scripture (Old Testament) to sort of “bible beat” people, especially the Pharisees.
Yeah, Jesus quoted scripture to people who already accepted the authority of the Old Testament. But when He spoke to unbelievers like the woman at the well, the rich young ruler, Pilate, and the thief on the cross, Jesus wasn’t firing OT verses at em’. And Paul wasn’t quoting from the OT when he was speaking to the Athenians...but attempted to find common ground with them, even quoting their own poets and recognizing their “unknown God” beliefs...in order to connect them with the reality of the one true God and the truth of Jesus’ resurrection.
...Jesus as well as the apostles regularly used scripture (Old Testament) to sort of “bible beat” people, especially the Pharisees.
Yeah, Jesus quoted scripture to people who already accepted the authority of the Old Testament. But when He spoke to unbelievers like the woman at the well, the rich young ruler, Pilate, and the thief on the cross, Jesus wasn’t firing OT verses at em’. And Paul wasn’t quoting from the OT when he was speaking to the Athenians...but attempted to find common ground with them, even quoting their own poets and recognizing their “unknown God” beliefs...in order to connect them with the reality of the one true God and the truth of Jesus’ resurrection.
Thanks, I think of, that, "Unknown god ", passage often.
These premises insured by a Sheltie in Training ,--- and Cooey.o "May the Good Lord take a likin' to you"
I was really headed towards being an atheist, but all the atheists cramming all their unbeliever crap down my throat has really turned me from beimg an atheist. You guys really pissed me off cramming your unreligious crap on me, so i just decided im going to be a bliever instead. Really. Its alls ur fault. U didit. Aint on me. I tried to warn you. Beg me r ill doit. Ok. That settles it. To hell with yall. Im A Believer As of Now.
I was really headed towards being a believer, but all the believers cramming all their believer crap down my throat, coupled with their very non-Christian forum posts, has really turned me from being a believer. You guys really pissed me off cramming your religious crap on me, so i just decided I'm going to be a nonbeliever instead. Really. Its all's your fault. You did it. Ain't on me. I tried to warn you. Beg me or I'll do it. Ok. That settles it. To hell with y'all. I'm a Nonbeliever As of Now. Actually, some of my post does not reflect my actual thinking, but the point is simply that cramming stuff down people's throats is a two way street. In addition, the self-righteous stuff spouted by a lot of non-righteous people is a big turn off. If the messengers are that messed up, it makes one wonder about the message.
Such indignation about experiences with self-righteous people is understandable. Of course - any such choice is your and yours alone. The amusing part has to do with your reaction to people "cramming all their believer crap down my throat". How does that happen - how does one enable someone else to do that? I'm well into the old bracket and find that no one ever has been able to cram any ideology into me.
How do we follow Christ without following his word?
The men and women who actually knew Jesus personally and chose to follow Him...like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, James, Andrew, Mary, Martha, and Paul...followed Him without ‘the Bible’. They received salvation without reading ‘any’ New Testament documents. And they were the men and women whose faith laid the groundwork for the evangelization of the entire world. Some seem to think that Christianity depends upon the Bible. I don’t. Christianity would still be true even if every Bible and manuscript in the world were non-existent.
when people say this....especially when they refer to some noteworthy or important life event that needs or requires significant effort, they say "well..I'm just going to turn it over to the lord and let him lead me and it's in his hands" (Translate)- PhuQ this, I'm tired of trying and I give up, and if this (event) turns to total horse-Schite then my smugness with religion should persuade anyone watching that I gave it my all...Losers
I have a feeling that this post suffers a good bit in its "translation".
No, no it's accurate. For the longest time people lived a crappy existence that they had no control over, and a pleasant afterlife was the only thing that they had to look forward to, so they fell onto religion. At least then they could make some effort at something and be seen to be doing something. The churches were able to make profit out of this too - so it was a win-win.
I have a feeling this post suffers a good bit in its bias and interpretation.
Maybe you need to work on your feelings
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
One last point. For a Christian, life on this earth, no matter how bad, is as bad as it is ever going to get. For an unbeliever, this life is as good as it is ever going to get.
All I know for sure is: I died and have abode in heaven since the day Dad hauled that last Holstien milk cow to the sale yard. And then I reached the highest glory of Heaven the day my wife agreed to walk down the aisle.
If there is anything better than I have experienced in this life, I could not stand it.
If there is a Hell, it would mean I was stuck with my nose in a cow's flank and a milk pail between my knees while a cold, slimy, green, wet, schitt covered tail slapped me across the face again and again.
I am very satisfied with what this life has granted and have no fear of eternal death.
People who choose to brew up their own storms bitch loudest about the rain.
I was really headed towards being an atheist, but all the atheists cramming all their unbeliever crap down my throat has really turned me from beimg an atheist. You guys really pissed me off cramming your unreligious crap on me, so i just decided im going to be a bliever instead. Really. Its alls ur fault. U didit. Aint on me. I tried to warn you. Beg me r ill doit. Ok. That settles it.
To hell with yall. Im A Believer As of Now.
Nobody is cramming anything down your throat. It is merely being pointed out that there are problems with faith as a foundation for belief, as there are problems with all of our 'holy books.'
You either see that or you don't. If you don't see it or understand....too bad, just enjoy your faith.
The amusing part has to do with your reaction to people "cramming all their believer crap down my throat". How does that happen - how does one enable someone else to do that? I'm well into the old bracket and find that no one ever has been able to cram any ideology into me.
Well, the language wasn't mine originally. I copied that from jag's post. In any event, it is not that the ideology took. It's just that there are certain people in life whose proselytizing I felt compelled to endure, such as my mom until her recent passing.
"Don't believe everything you see on the Internet" - Abraham Lincoln
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