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Joined: Dec 2013
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,454 |
Enlighten me on a couple of topics;
Why are you running water through a boiler, when the boiler is not engaged in the process?
Why is condensation a problem while the boiler is in service, but not a problem when it is idle but with water flow? The Start up tech wants the pump and boiler wired separately- a switch for each. Directions were that if you turn the boiler off- let the pump run for a few minutes to pull out the heat from the exchanger to keep condensation from happening. It was explained to me as follows by the start up tech- Condensation in the boiler doesn’t occur when you have pool (tank) temperature water running through a non ignited boiler. Condensation would occur when you have a low inlet temp and a high outlet temp. The mixing valve brings in a set 140* water into the boiler and with a 25* delta T giving us a target temp of 165*. Condensation is what killed the previous two raypak boilers which used a ball valve as a mixing valve.
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,454
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,454 |
Where are we at with this?
A 2 1/2 pump assembly was ordered Thursday afternoon. The situation was explained to the best of my ability to the shot callers (mostly me?) based on the info I have gleaned from you people.. I was off Friday and the weekend. So I have severed ties with this situation till Monday. Until then I am spending my time making this abomination to kick my nieces and nephews asses in the Easter hat making contest.. Try to control yourselves, especially you Kingston! ![[Linked Image from i.postimg.cc]](https://i.postimg.cc/0NqvJYVF/A3527206-B062-4-CBA-9-FC7-D0756-F5-A4-FC0.jpg) With a hat like that you should get a free bowl of soup!
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 303
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 303 |
Enlighten me on a couple of topics;
Why are you running water through a boiler, when the boiler is not engaged in the process?
Why is condensation a problem while the boiler is in service, but not a problem when it is idle but with water flow? The Start up tech wants the pump and boiler wired separately- a switch for each. Directions were that if you turn the boiler off- let the pump run for a few minutes to pull out the heat from the exchanger to keep condensation from happening. It was explained to me as follows by the start up tech- Condensation in the boiler doesn’t occur when you have pool (tank) temperature water running through a non ignited boiler. Condensation would occur when you have a low inlet temp and a high outlet temp. The mixing valve brings in a set 140* water into the boiler and with a 25* delta T giving us a target temp of 165*. Condensation is what killed the previous two raypak boilers which used a ball valve as a mixing valve. So then, this moisture is being formed by what, the incoming combustion air, or by the moisture inherent to the fuel?
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,454
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,454 |
Temperature differential of the inlet/outlet temp.
Then which is exacerbated when the boiler turns off, and exacerbated even more if the pump turns off.
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 303
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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Posts: 303 |
The fireside moisture must come from somewhere, and it must reach a dew point. Please explain the origin of the moisture.
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Joined: Dec 2014
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2014
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I think I can answer. Without a mixer, and with the boiler being underfired, moisture is falling out of the flue gas stream at the boiler outlet. This moisture enters with both the primary air and with the fuel. Perhaps this scenerio (boiler low firing rate) is utilized to increase efficiency. In a perfect world, flue gas temp would never be allowed to reach dewpoint.
Without a mixer, flue gas temp would need to be increased at boiler outlet (increased firing rate). During the off cycle, boiler would need to be "bottled up", using dampers to isolate the fireside. And, the water flow would need to be diverted away from boiler.
I would consider the need for the mixer a bandaid approach to minimize equipment at the setting.
But, this is but a small operation, so I am probably okay with it. I guess. BUT, the mixer does reduce NPSH at the pump inlet because of elevated temp.
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Joined: Jan 2018
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 23,506 |
It’s well established that all Californians are wealthy real estate tycoons.
Pony up Hig. Box office earnings have been slow. Trailer repairs high. Beav will have to build his own hat. You've seen Beav's stock painting? Lord help us. Certifiable's price seemed outrageous until I realized he didn't have to come on here asking for help making it. I think theres a plumber in the Etsÿ pile, if you catch my meaning... The man has obviously amateur modeled hats before. Renegade will be on here momentarily with a forensic analysis of the 'fashion' photography. It's no coincidence that the bottom of the frame stops just above the nipple line. I'll set a Gofundme up so we can get Beaver a proper hat. Hurtful, both of you...Plain hurtful ! 🦫
Curiosity Killed the Cat & The Prairie Dog
“Molon Labe”
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Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 23,506
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 23,506 |
Where are we at with this?
A 2 1/2 pump assembly was ordered Thursday afternoon. The situation was explained to the best of my ability to the shot callers (mostly me?) based on the info I have gleaned from you people.. I was off Friday and the weekend. So I have severed ties with this situation till Monday. Until then I am spending my time making this abomination to kick my nieces and nephews asses in the Easter hat making contest.. Try to control yourselves, especially you Kingston! No !......No ! Absolutely....NO ! 🦫
Curiosity Killed the Cat & The Prairie Dog
“Molon Labe”
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 32,130 |
I'll translate.
Yes !......Yes !
Absolutely....YES !
🦄
If you put Taco Bell sauce in your ramen noodles it tastes just like poverty
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,454
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,454 |
I think I can answer. Without a mixer, and with the boiler being underfired, moisture is falling out of the flue gas stream at the boiler outlet. This moisture enters with both the primary air and with the fuel. Perhaps this scenerio (boiler low firing rate) is utilized to increase efficiency. In a perfect world, flue gas temp would never be allowed to reach dewpoint.
Without a mixer, flue gas temp would need to be increased at boiler outlet (increased firing rate). During the off cycle, boiler would need to be "bottled up", using dampers to isolate the fireside. And, the water flow would need to be diverted away from boiler.
I would consider the need for the mixer a bandaid approach to minimize equipment at the setting.
But, this is but a small operation, so I am probably okay with it. I guess. BUT, the mixer does reduce NPSH at the pump inlet because of elevated temp.
I don’t have the numbers one me.... But I don’t suspect the cooler air that could cause condensation is coming down from the flue- as it meets factory RBI specs. The flue is only a touch longer than 8ft in height, which per factory guidelines does not require a barometric damper, but one is installed to ensure the flames arent lifted too far from the burners. I’ve verified the flames look as they should . We seem to be off topic regarding the condition of the combustion chamber/condensation/refectory cement and the cavitation, and potentially electrolysis, that’s causing the premature wear on the copper.... unless you’re sandbagging withholding information.
Last edited by robertham1; 04/03/21.
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Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 303
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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Posts: 303 |
Roberthan1,
You don't know what is flue gas?
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,454
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,454 |
Roberthan1,
You don't know what is flue gas? I certainly think i know what it is.
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