Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns INTERSTING GUN FIGHT #SHOTS STATS

I need to be clear again it seems. . My remarks had NOTHING to do with gunfighting, NONE and I said as much. My only comments were with marksmanship and the less than impressive stats put forth by police departments and yes to an extent one's ability to handle stress (incidentally, myriad studies show the level of stress experienced by Naval Aviators during night carrier landings exceed those of folks in combat). That said, ALL I stated was that I was more comfortable with my 1911 after a life long association with said firearm over a striker fired pistol. That and coupled with what studies show as the number of rounds expended by CIVILIANS in such situations is less than five, i am perfectly fine with my 1911 and certainly more confident in the 45 ACP over the 9mm..

I'd wager that jorgeI would have the basic mental make up that Cirillo had. Bill Allard picked Cirillo because he shot competently. Bill thought that the pressure from competition benefited one in a gun fight. Cirillo said that he felt more pressure in a competition because he had time for it to build but a gunfight happened too quickly

To me being prepared means working hard to maintain my skills and fitness. I carry a hi cap 9mm and a spare mag at all times. even at home. I practice presentations and dryfire almost daily. I work out about 10 hrs./week and include break contact drills on a heavy bag. I shoot 100-200 rounds/week in programmed drills all done on a timer.

At age 74 I have no illusions about the savages in our world or my capabilities but I can keep a proper mindset and maximize my potential. The old 3 rounds 3yards paradigm was BS 50 years ago and remains the same today. You will get the fight that your opponents bring and will have little or no warning. Plan accordingly or not, your choice.


mike r

Makes you wonder how these goofy criminals that don't even know how to pull their pants up; much less hold a firearm inflict so much damage on civilians and LEOs.

Because all I gather from the chest thumping here is that anyone who chooses to carry a firearm; if it's not a hi-cap plastic 9mm of sorts or if they aren't LEO or Military....they are doomed.

I wouldn't want you mad at me.
Bob

Interesting discussion. Been following it from the beginning. Here's what I do. I don't practice presentations or dry fire daily (actually, when I shoot, it's to practice ISU and bullseye). I don't do realistic scenarios. I lift weights and run a little, mostly because I enjoy working out. I don't eyeball every person and do a threat analysis while sitting at the local Denny's. Maybe I should; I'm not in a perpetual condition yellow. I don't want to live like that. Sometimes I even sit with my back to the door. If I still lived in LA or was on another combat tour, I'd probably be more cautious. I carry a 5-shot .38 now, with an extra speed strip and a cheap pocket knife only (the knife is for cutting stuff). I don't think most people are savages (or even really bad), but where I live now it really isn't an issue. Yeah, there's some really bad people out there, but I don't train constantly to take them on. If a group of Mongols ride into my little town, I think I'll be OK. I'll just stay home.
Bob

No one was ever in a gunfight until the first time

They don’t.

The bad guys do.

Carry what you want, and to hell with the haters.

I'm definitely NOT a gunfighter and when I was military age Jimmy Carter was president and I refused to go in with a commander in chief such as him, just what happened. I've been around guns all my life, shot on many rifle and pistol teams and hunting. I made a career, over 40 years, as a union electrician in Chicago and worked in areas of the city the cops wouldn't even go into, or so it seamed! Got out of more than one situation with just a 26oz electrician's straight claw hammer, but then they didn't have guns either, just similar stuff. I do carry now and train/practice what I can. In 2017 I required major spinal surgery and can, pretty much, no longer run or fight physically (still have the tradesman's mouth though!), so I carry and it does give me a measure of comfort, but scares the crap out of me too, all at the same time. But I'm not in those previous areas anymore, and it's actually pretty quiet where I live. But Chicago is still only 40 miles away (Waukegan is closer!) with a highway system between here and there. You can "what if" yourself to a frazil, you can also get in a head on collision going to get a gallon of milk. To me, worse case scenario is my family needing me and me not being able to be there. I do/train/carry what I think is more than adequate, but then, I hope I never have to find out if it is or not! To all you been there and done that guys, I thank you and wish you nothing but the best. Also, no one knows what they'll do when it hits the fan. You may think you know what you'll do, but until it happens, you really don't. At least that's my opinion. I've had some really close, really scary bear encounters where it was me or it, I'm still here. Don't know if that trend will continue, every time seams very different. All I can say, is when it happens, it happens fast. And I get the training so it's reflex action. There's no definitive answer and I'm done ramblin on! Continue to practice with what you choose to use and be the best you can with it.

I like you. 😂

I guess I'm still a bit confused about what the differences are between "the old ways" and "the new ways" you refer to actually are. I don't mind sounding foolish, if my questions lead to some learning. But as you say, YMMV.

In the past 10 years I've taken training from Tim Lau and Hilton Yam, Clint Smith, Pat Rogers, Jeff Gonzalez, Tom Givens, and about a dozen other lesser-known trainers at the annual IALEFI Conference, Gunsite, and other tactical venues. Before that I took training from some really old guys like Jim Cirillo, Massad Ayoob, John Farnham, Henk Iversen, Larry Vickers, and a few others of that ilk.

Maybe those guys haven't killed enough people recently enough to qualify as "far superior" in your eyes? Does taking training from them qualify me as signs of a lack of self improvement? Just asking...

In the time period you've alluded to, late 1980's onward, I've also done a fair bit of IDPA and USPSA competition, won quite a few gongs and knick-knacks, some state championships, some regional championships. and so forth. But I have to confess, I haven't killed anybody, ever, so I realize I'm pretty much chopped liver if the credibility of a shooter is based on his body count.

But my own obvious ineptitude notwithstanding, I'm still scratching my head about the specifics of your comments, and here's what I've noticed.

It seems to me that "the old guys", like Cirillo and Ayoob and Farnham, all of whom I know or have known personally and have taken training from, never taught anything I would consider to be incompatible with the things "the new guys" like Lau and Lam and Givens and Smith teach today. At law enforcement conferences like IALEFI-ATC, I've seen a gradual change in weapons and tactics training over the years, but certainly nothing that says to me that the nature of firearms, bullets, or ballistics has undergone a revolutionary change. Maybe I haven't taken training from the right "new guys", I don't know, but I kind of doubt it.

So again, I ask you to be specific: what is it that was so flawed about "the old ways", and what is so much better about "the new ways"? Don't just drop names, please give some specifics here.

I suspect you have some valid points and I think they bear discussion.

I have trained under Farnam and Ayoob, and I concur with DocRoc. Some details have changed, but the training I got nearly 30 years ago would serve anyone today quite well. The biggest difference would probably be the equipment.

Most internet discussions about these things focus on the icing on the cake.

And most people don't have the cake.

It is what it is, and, IMO, it's because gear/caliber/STUFF is something that it's easy to talk about and discuss.

A repeatable, fast draw from concealment, quick splits, accuracy, fitness, and mindset are not "easy."

Don't you hi-cap 4 magazine guys forget to carry your tourniquet with you on your runs to the grocery store.

I have a good MED kit in the truck. And another in my hunting pack. One in my wife's Jeep.

It is a general observation. Go to the gun store, or log into most any gun talk forum and there are plenty of blowhards spreading all sorts of bovine feces all trying very hard to convince themselves they are the next coming of Wild Bill Hickok. A Keltec .380 in an Uncle Mike's nylon holster, some Utube videos and they are set.

Well Doc, and others I guess my belief in human evolution has ruffled some feathers. Doc do you still use the same equipment techniques and practices in the ER as you did in the '80s or have you followed and kept up w/ the significant advances and continued to learn and revise your knowledge and skill base?

Who remembers when gun guys and their instructors argued the value of weaver vs. isoceles and .45 vs 9mm and putting a roll of quarters in your jacket pocket so you could clear your 1911 from your leather holster worn a 4 o clock.

Do you recall when IALEFFI and others taught that any hit was a good hit and COM was real good and mere mortals shouldn't take head shots because they actually moved.

Do you still shoot from a weaver and side step to "get off the X and wear Your Sportif stretch cargo shorts and logo polo to matches with your baseball shoes? Fug no.

The old boys laid down a knowledge base that has been improved upon by modern warriors and made available to those that wish to improve.

As to specifics can you shoot w/ surgical accuracy and discriminate targets from innocents while moving through a crowd in less than optimal light conditions?

I will repeat: If you think you are good enough you are probably wrong.

again YMMV


mike r

I don't know about Mike, but I'll offer a few changes that I've observed of the last 18 years. Some of them might sound small, but in practice they're not.

Using "combat effective" as an accuracy standard.
"Focus on the front sight"
"Jerking the trigger"
"Slow down on your trigger press"
"Lean into the gun to absorb recoil"
"Slow is smooth and smooth is fast"
60 / 40 grip pressure

Some of that is still taught, but not by anyone I'll listen to. And more ridiculous stuff than that has been offered up as good advice by respected members of this forum before.

Ok. As a general observation, we are in agreement.