Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

The Bastard File is well used in conjunction with a drill press after the chop saw:



Easiest good use for a 500-gr TSX is for making 480-gr XTSX "HYDRA" bullets:



Woodleigh's HYDRO on the left and Bubba's HYDRA on the right, above.

Cool pictures RC!

Buy a donkey for the flowers beretzs.
Maybe all those 480-grainers, copper, brass, and hardcast (FN or pointy) bullets with gas checks may be limited to only 2200 fps for similar POI and gentle recoil.
After all, that would be the original .450 NE ballistics against which all success is compared.
DRT no question.
SAAMI .458 WM easily does that at 3.340" and 60,000 PSI.

The ultimate power-perforator, solid-bullet load that beats a SAAMI .458 Lott with a .458 WM+: +2350 fps in a 24" barrel.

Got a Bud running a BOLO for me on AA-2230 Sir Ron, if he's able to score some, i'll load the lifetime supply of 450gr TSX's you graciously sent my way!

450gr TSX at 2450 may call for a quick slap of a 2-10 NF and some 1125 yard gong banging ; ]

I need to do that 450-grainer again too, at less than 3.6" COL and with no more than 24" of barrel, so as not to make the .458 Lott look too bad in comparison.
Yep, AA-2230.

Just thought about putting those .440"/ 530-grain paper-patched bullets to use in a CVA Paramount muzzleloader with .450" bore diameter and 1:22" twist.
Soft lead paper-patched to snug in bore and rammed home from the muzzle.
Put a heel-mounted vernier sight on that one, with a globe front sight.
Ought to be like a Rigby muzzleloader used at Creedmoor in 1874.

Those UK chaps refused to give up their muzzleloaders until 1880, despite the regular trouncings they took from the BPCR-shooting Americans in 1874 and thereafter.
Interesting that John Rigby then copied the .45-2.4" and 2.6" Sharps cartridges for his match BPCR about 1880,
before going on to create the .450 NE 3.25" in 1897.
Now we can do it all with a .45-2.5" belted case.

We can reproduce everything from 1850's 1000-yard muzzleloader ballistics to .450 Nitro Express ballistics
(plus beat the SAAMI .458 Lott for good measure)
with a Ruger No. 1, Winchester M70, or CZ 550 Magnum with SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chamber.
Just remember to use the .450"-diameter slicks for paper patching to groove diameter (or a little bigger)
when using the SAAMI .458 WM to re-enact the Irish or American Creedmoor ballistics.

I keep forgetting to try a stack of shot capsules in the .458 WM
just to deny the .458 Lott its only superiority with rat and snake loads.
Will see if a second shot capsule in the .458 WM will stick out farther than can be loaded in the short-throated .458 Lott.
Or, just a case full of bird shot with one capsule sticking forward about an inch ?
Might pattern better than the usual, proper .458 Lott rat load.

Sir Ron,

Speaking of large shot, have you ever tried a 3-ball load, or is the ID of the case not uniform low enough to hold the lead balls?

bcelliott,

Why yes, several years ago, almost forgot about that.
Sometimers may be setting in ...

.451"/140-gr balls times 3 (Traditions-brand, swaged lead roundballs for cap&ball revolver): 420 grains lead
with 18.5 grains of Blue Dot
in Hornady .458 WM case
F215 primer
one Lyman .45-cal gas check used as over-powder wad, tapped in with wooden dowel and rubber mallet
then 0.5" diameter foam wad 0.5" in length goes in next
first 2 balls pressed into foam using the belling die plug
third ball seated to equator of ball, use taper crimp prior if ball too loose to stay put
use LEE factory crimp die too lock the ball in place




So the sights may be not so important, as there is some randomness to where the balls hit.
~3" spread at 10 yards
~7" spread at 25 yards

Why does one ball make a smudged, ragged, round hole while the other two balls make cookie cutter, .45-caliber holes ?
Not sure. Those ragged ones are not gas check holes at 25 yards.
I saw gas checks at 10 yards in the birdshot patterning, flying sideways like Frisbees.

More work on the birdshot loads is needed.
18.5 grains of Blue Dot pushing 400 grains of 7-1/2 shot does not pattern too well past 10 yards.
That was without shot capsule use, just a gas check used as an over-shot card.
Need to get the shot charge over an ounce.

Thanks for the 3-ball load data! I have .454" swaged balls on hand. Might those fit in the case better and fly straighter?

Try it and let us know.
I was going for the buckshot, smoothbore effect with bore-sized 3 balls.
Now I am wanting to try a paper-wrapped single ball.
This will take us back to origins of the American Long Rifle in Pennsylvania, which was the inspiration for the British "BP Express Rifle."
Redcoats were in awe of the marksmanship with those squirrel rifles.
How to get a pea-shooter, maybe, 140-grain ball at 2000 fps ?
That .458 WM might be even more versatile than I have heretofore imagined !
BTW, I estimate the 3-ball load had MV of about 1100-1200 fps.
No chrono data and who cares !

I doubt a .454 lead ball will make a very good gas seal in a .458 WM. Leading might be an issue.
Maybe a .40-cal ball in a sabot ?
Maybe paper-patch the sabot from .450" to .461" and have a better squeeze on the whole affair ?
Paper patch shreds in the rifling and discards at the muzzle as does the sabot.

Young Davy Crockett's first Ol' Betsy was a .40-cal, before he went to Texas with a .58-cal.
I have killed deer with a .40-cal flintlock.
DRT with a neck shot at 50 yards.
Little round ball at 2000 fps was the first "Express Rifle."
Maybe the .458 WM can recreate the entire history of the hunting rifle ballistics (any worth recreating) from 1700 to 2021 and beyond.
Still the best ever, the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Do you think a couple of applications of powder coat to the .454" ball (which should add to the diameter 0.003" or so) would solve both the diameter and leading problems?

That is a great idea !
I only have .451" and .395" diameter balls on hand.
I figure that 24 grains of Blue Dot will make my .395-cal ball (93.5 grains) in a sabot go +2000 fps MV from a 23"-barreled .458 Win.Mag.
I have proven that will kill a deer at 50 yards with a neck shot, in my Davy Crockett flintlock, with 60 grains of FFFg GOEX.

Powder-coat paint a .454" ball a couple of times, great idea !

More to come, documenting the incredible versatility of the .458 Winchester Magnum.

I am going to have to get back out to the friend's farm to use the Oehler 35P at 7 yards.
It did much better at chronographing paper-patched, duplexed-BP loads with grease cookies,
but is impractical at the public range due to terrain and lack of "elbow room."

We have conquered the .458 Lott, well and truly.
Most interesting now, for me, is to recreate the entire history of practical rifle ballistics, using the .458 WM.
Single round ball, BPCR, Nitro Express and beyond,
plus a shot-capsule load for pests, the usual domain of the .458 Lott.
And one more .458 Winchester Magnum rifle, a Winchester M70 Classic (or FN/Portuguese) stainless rifle with all the bells and whistles.
Maybe a stainless full octagon barrel with barrel ladder, Beach combo front sight, vernier sight on heel of synthetic stock,
and the Near 25-MOA Picatinny on the action.
A 10-pound limit with no scope, 24" barrel, fun to shoot.
A round barrel of No. 5 sporter contour will do it easily,
need to do some figuring on the octagons and barrel sights.

That sounds like a zinger Gunner. I’ll be watching for 2230 and 450’s to follow your lead.

That octagon barrel would look even more awesomer with a timed octagon muzzle brake. 😁😀

10-4 Big B, it'll be a blast in more ways than one, with Sir Rons 458 Win Mag+ explorations the cartridge is indeed an "Entity" of it's own, from back porch coons raiding the dog bowl to a 12,000 lb charging Bull Elephant, it's all nicely covered.

Sir Spruce is digging it.
Also will need a timed octagon thread protector nut.

About the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum chambering of the .458 WM+:

WELL SAID !

Looks like I need to fire those 450-gr TSX using 24" barrel and 3.56" COL limit with AA-2230 fps.
A 25" Shilen barrel and 3.68" COL with 84 grains of AA-2230 previously yielded 2457 fps velocity at 5 yards, corrected to MV = 2469 fps.
That was in Hornady brass with F215 primer, and no signs of excessive pressure.
It was a 100% fill with drop tube and no compression at the 3.68" COL.
I will use Daisy the Ruger No. 1 .458 WM with 24" barrel at the next outing.
She is the standard .458 WM+ rifle to which all others may be compared.
Hornady brass is the standard brass to which all others may be compared.

Will be keeping it to no more than 24" of barrel and less than 3.60" of COL
(even though a Ruger No. 1 does up to 3.78" COL with either the 450-gr TSX or 500-grain TSX with same nose on both bullets)
so as not to have the Lottites crying foul.

I will start over with 80 grains of AA-2230 which ought to be about a 100% fill at 3.56" COL and start compressing one grain at a time to 84-grain maximum.
Then start with the 84 grain charge of AA-2230 in the Norma brass (of larger capacity) for a non-compressed load of 3.56" COL.
Maybe 85 grains would make up for the 1" shorter barrel by using Norma brass ?
Maybe the mildly compressed AA-2230 in Hornady brass would more than make up for a 1" shorter barrel ?

Also, Marcella McGowen-Winchester will be used with paper-patched, duplexed-BP, 480-gr PH loads,
as well as some smokeless ball & shot loads,
from her 23" barrel.

Trying to keep everything to 24" or shorter barrels and less than 3.6" COL so as to relieve pain and suffering amongst the Lottites.
No excuses.