Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Right now, the 450-gr TSX is the killingest soft we have for the .458 WM, no doubt.
We'll get back to the 400-grainers later.

Mike Brady stopped at 450 grains and 2300 fps with his testing of the 450-gr North Fork soft in the SAAMI .458 WM,
for more reasons than just benchrest recoil.
He thought .305 SD was enough for anything, and the .306 SD of the .458/ 450-gr was close enough for Goldielocks AND all three bears.
0.305 is the SD of a .375/ 300-gr bullet.
North Forks having solid copper bases with drive bands and bonded lead nose cores are a bit longer than the usual cup&core bullets of same weight and caliber.
Likewise the 450-gr TSX monometal copper is long enough.
The 500-gr TSX won't be as stable after impact and eats up too much case capacity for powder.

Three bullets in the sweet spot for North Fork softs are
Papa Bear: .458/ 450-gr SD = .306
Mama Bear: .423/ 380-gr SD = .303
Baby Bear: .416/370-gr SD = .305

Mike Brady tested the Woodleigh WeldCore soft in .423/ 400-gr variety against the North Fork .423/ 380-grainer.
The Woodleigh soft's penetration decreased as velocity increased.
The North Fork soft's penetration increased as velocity increased.







Obviously, the .458/ 450-gr TSX that has controlled expansion which stops at the solid base portion
will penetrate more like a North Fork than a Woodleigh.
That is like comparing porridge to pancakes for breakfast.

Consider:

Swiftshot pushing a 550-gr Woodleigh RNSN to 1800 fps with his SAAMI .458 Lott.
Sir Russ pushing a 550-gr Woodleigh RNSN to 2100 fps with his SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.

Swiftshot will likely not recover his bullet from a small black bear.

Sir Russ might recover his bullet from a large Sambar stag.

Swiftshot's slowpoke penetrates better than the fastpoke of Sir Russ.
Not so funny but true.

Greater sectional density means greater expansion of a soft bullet at whatever velocity,
unless it has a stop in expansion at a solid base.

I am out shooting my Lott's more often now.That bear hunt experience put back life into me.I am already thinking and planning for next year.I shot my Ralf Martini Lott today with the 67grs loads and the Woodleigh out to 100yds with open sights from a bench.The group size was about an inch-better than my Ruger Lotts with the Pac-nor barrels and Kriger.The Ralf Martini Lott has a Douglas barrel-very impressive.From now on I will only buy Douglas.

If any Knight wishes to take on a knave as apprentice squire, let swiftshot know.

We recall the bullet trap of Mike Brady which I presume he used to generate the penetration profiles of bullets, graphed above.
Blocks of book binders glue, rendered horns and hooves from the "glue factory," are aligned in a horizontal stack on a board inside a 50-gallon steel drum.
There is an entrance port on the front end and doors on the side of the drum.
Blocks can be cooked back down solidity after they are perforated, for shot-to-shot consistency.
I don't think there was any calibration with a BB gun like with FBI ballistic gelatin. The BB probably would bounce off.
No refrigeration needed either.
It makes for nice pictures of various bullets expanded by various velocities, a tough medium.



The .423-380gr soft, graphed above, is pictured here:







Smaller frontal diameter at higher velocities above a certain point, yet still retains 92.3% weight at 2500 fps.
Penetrates deeper as velocity is increased.
Mike Brady said preferred impact velocity (PIV) was 2000 to 2600 fps for this bullet
but it could be expected to expand and maintain structural integrity sufficiently for a functional impact velocity (FIV) range of 1700 to 2800 fps.
And a .458-450gr TSX ought to do the same.

The .423-380gr North Fork looked like the unfired one above, until it hit a bison in he ribs at about 2400 fps impact velocity:

Mike Brady test of .458-450-gr soft
BOL = 1.460"
FIV = 1700 - 2700 fps
PIV = 2000 -2600 fps





Mike stopped at 2300 fps with his SAAMI .458 WM load.
.460 WBY shooters ought to keep it down to 2700 fps impact or risk expanding the solid copper base.
.458 WM+ shooters are surely safe at 2500 fps MV.
The North Fork has a slightly shorter BOL than the 450-gr TSX and could be seated less deeply for the same COL.
How does the slickness of the narrow grooves and bands on the North Fork compare to the wider ones on the TSX ?
Probably about the same overall bearing surface and same material bearing.

.458-400gr
BOL = 1.310"
FIV = 1700 - 2800 fps
PIV = 1800 - 2600 fps

.458-350gr
BOL = 1.178"
FIV = 1500 - 2900 fps
PIV = 1600 - 2700 fps

.458-350gr FP
BOL = 1.050"
FIV = 1200 - 2700 fps
PIV = 1500 - 2500 fps

Years ago I only shot my Lotts with Max loads.Then I saw no need for this and started using lighter loads.It's both hard on the rifle and the shooter.It could perform less favorable on game too.The only time I will load it up again is if I use it in Africa and even then not to max but three or four grains less.I doubt the Woodleigh needs to be driven very fast to work properly and I know it will take as much punishment as a 500gr Swift-A-Frame bullet-which is a very tough bullet.I use to shoot frozen dirt mounds at top speed with the 550 Woodleigh RNSP and the 500gr A-Frame and they are tough.

RC,
Those NF .458 350 grain SS are what I am now testing in my .458 2.1 DR and they should be very effective on Deer and hogs.

Next, I will push them a bit harder in my 1886 .458 2.4.

You guys are starting to make me think that 300 win mag LH M70 classic in my closet doing nothing needs something to do. Please stop.

And hopefully the Swedish manufacturer of North Fork take-over will be making some bullets for us someday.
Covid put a kink in that too, methinks.

bluefish,
You do that and there is chair at the Round Table for you.
About time the Crusade had a leftie .458 WM besides Sir Bob's Ruger No. 1.

An update to all...

Mention was made that a test of my Nikon 2 - 7 x 32mm would need doing. That one has taken a veritable beating on my former Ruger #1 in .45-70LT and now on the Ruger #1 in .458 WIN. Having lately experienced a lot of challenges to get decent accuracy from two bullets -- the 350gr Speer and 465gr hardcast -- I began to question the integrity of the Nikon.

The good news is that the Nikon showed its usual perfection in testing the proven load of the 405gr Rem, 75 grs RL-15, Hornady brass and WLRM primers. Yesterday evening (5:45 - 6:45) at 50 yards I aimed at the bottom of a target (as I didn't know how high that load might be shooting in making some "guessing" adjustments from trials of the 465 hardcast at around 1400 fps) and printed three about 2.5" high. After more adjustments the last two were touching at 1" right of dead center. I only took five with me. I further made 7 quick clicks to move the crosshairs to dead center at 50 yards. That will be my hunting load (2085 fps/3909 ft-lbs) for the coming bear season -- starting Sept. 1st. As mentioned - I used a similar 405gr Rem load from an 1895 Marlin on a decent bear at 100 yards. It was DRT.

Some time ago, I learned that the Nikon "shotgun" scope made 1/4" per click at 50 yds, not the usual 1/4" at 100. In fact, somewhere in the literature that was mentioned.

So, I'm abandoning current trials for the 465gr hardcast, as at the last outing there was at least one "keyhole"! And the 350 Speer has never given the accuracy I expect, though trials have been numerous.

It anyone has some 405gr Remingtons (or perhaps 400gr Hawks or similar), you might want to try 75 grs RL-15 for relatively low pressure, good accuracy and plenty of power for any soft-skinned game (bear, moose, elk, hogs, etc) to whatever range that's suitable. The 405 Rem has a BC of .281 with a dual diameter of .450" for about 1/2 of the bullet length. And it has less lead exposed than "normal" for such type bullets. The core is harder than pure lead and the jacket is thin but gilding metal. It has proven itself on big game as long as impact velocity is not more than about 2000 fps. Less than that at about 1400 - 1500 fps it will act like a solid unless bone is struck.

Sighted dead-on at 50 it is nearly dead on at 100, and could be used at 150 with no holdover. If sighted at 120 it could be useful to 250 without undue calculations. There's plenty of power there for most N.A. soft-skinned game, like moose, well beyond 250 yards.

Recoil from my rifle (10.3 lbs with scope) was about 32 ft-lbs for the 405 Rem. I added 5 other cartridges (350 Speers) to the stock cartridge holder, and felt recoil was noticeably less (calculated at 30 ft-lbs). The similar load (less powder) from the 1895 Marlin was calculated at 42 ft-lbs, and probably felt like more due to the stock shape. But I never noticed at the time as shooting such loads from the Marlin was common... and I was younger (60 ish)!

That's a: "For what it's worth".

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

My latest blog "Advanced Handloading" is just up.

10-rahjah on the lower pressures with the AA-2460 Sir Ron, Thanks for the math, those Northforks look like some fine bullets, hope that new company can fly em high and sell the hell out of train loads of them, that said, i gotta say, were i to completely blow the petals off a 450gr TSX, that would have to remain a 380 grain flat nosed solid [After] wrecking the hell out of things on the way to losing it's petals, damn hard to beat imho.

A couple of recovered bullet weights for the record.......

Mark V .460 Weatherby Magnum

400gn Barnes XFB over 110gn AR2208/VARGET for 2750fps gained 5 feet penetration into Scrub Bull retaining 293 grains. All petals lost but a mushroom still began to form on the shank. Range approx 75yds. Retained and expanded length is .680" (Bull is pictured in Barnes #4 Manual under .460 Wby Loads) Still have a few of those 400grainers loaded up in the .458 Winchester cases using 74gn of H 4198 and chronographing @ 2434fps.

550gn Woodleigh Weldcore RN over 121gn IMR4831 for 2509fps into Bison and retained 458 grains and expanded to retain approx .388" shank and max expansion width of 1.155". Range approx 60yds. Bison was bled out in the field and transported back to scale a weight of 2,3XX lbs. Aged at 10.5 years.

John

Sir Bob,
Your load with RL-15 and the 405-gr Remington is an excellent one, an efficient, low-pressure load,
pushing that 405-grainer as fast as it ought to go, accurately.
75 gr RL-15 >>> almost 2100 fps with 405-grainer.
Plumb creative of you.
It's hard to find RL-15 data for 400-ish-grainers in the .458 WM.

Michael McCourry had a RL-15 load for the old Hornady 500-gr RN InterBond in the SAAMI .458 WM with 24" barrel:
76.5 gr RL-15 >>> 2171 fps
That one better be with a bonded bullet. The higher SD and higher velocity will make it pancake like a Woodleigh.

BTW, methinks you did not slow down the undersized-for-458WM hardcasts enough to stop keyholing in Grace.
If you don't like them around 1300 fps, better shoot them faster than that in a tighter-grooved .45-70 Gov't.

How about enlightening me on how much deader a 458 Win Mag would make any critter on this continent then, say, a 45-70 loaded for use in a Siamese Mauser, or a Ruger.

Sir Jerry,
I don't think you will blow the petals off the .458-450gr TSX as long as you keep it under 2500 fps in the .458 WM+.
Now, if we could have a copy of that monometal copper CNC-turned in brass, the petals would blow off every time on the plains game of any size, big or small, near or far.
The 450-gr TSX translated to brass would have a weight of about 430 grains and blow down to about 360-gr of jagged FN brass solid, by comparison.
Might exit more often than the copper bullet, blood trail from both sides of the animal.
BC would be a little less too though, proportional to the lower SD,
but MV might be a little higher, with the slicker brass bullet of lighter weight.
Hey, maybe give it a little boat tail and pointier nose ?
What the heck, make it a 400-grain varmint bullet made of brass and shoot it at +2600 fps !

A visual comparison on the North Fork SS bullets, .423-380gr and .458-450gr:





If both impacted a buffalo at 2400 fps, which would kill better ?
Why, the .458 WM+ of course.