Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

That was a huge bison, and a very old one ! Where is a picture of that one, please !
Shank height of 0.388" on the Woodleigh 550-gr RNSN that started off at 1.414" length, and expansion to 250% of original diameter, and 83% weight retention:
2509 fps MV impacting at 60 yards, probably about 2375 fps, exceeded Woodleigh's recommended impact window of 1800 to 2200 fps for that bullet.
Bison still died, thank goodness !

You forgot to specify a 480-gr semi-hard Lyman PH cast bullet at 1300 fps for the .45-70 that will kill anything in North America quite reliably.
And you are emphasizing the ridiculousness of the .458 Winchester Magnum deniers. Bless you.
Buy a donkey for that support of the Crusade for Truth.

Some brass bullet ideas, .458 Caliber, cannot find anything like a .458-430-gr brass TSX, so far:

295-gr CEB, put a tip on it ?:



370-gr CEB with funny spacing on the bands:



305-gr Lehigh:



528-gr Lehigh:



If only the two Lehigh bullets could have a baby ... it might look like a 430-gr brass TSX about 1.5" long.

Sir Ron;

I'll be sticking with the known load for the 405gr Rem during bear season, or as much of it as possible as I expect to be in New Brunswick sometime in October.

Also, I'll be trying the same load for the 400gr Hawk and 400gr Barnes Buster to see how that goes. Another trial, without re-sighting anything, will be 75 grs RL-17 for the 405 Rem. I'm expecting about 1800 fps but want to find out how accurate that load might be.

I also think the Buster might be a good choice for particular applications if accuracy fulfils desires. In a media test around 2250 it went straight through everything and was lost. That from my former 45-70 LT. The 500gr Speer GS was defeated at 6" penetration, retaining 310grs ! MV was 1750 fps. Range for all bullets was 5 yards to media. Both 350gr TSX's penetrated completely - one was "lost" (until found about a year later - the point was damaged and it had tumbled by hitting the edge of a wooden plank) the other was retrieved just inside the last panel of the second box, fully "mushroomed" and retained 350 grs. MV was 2470 fps.

Eight bullets were fired and the only two that was the same were the 350 TSX's. Most were reduced loads to simulate hitting large game in the shoulders at around 100 yards.

The theoretical advantage of the Buster is that big wide flat meplat (BWFM), when/if it impacts the shoulders of a bull elk, moose, bear or hog at 1400 to 2200 fps it should be devastation - IF the accuracy is what's wanted/needed...
... similar to a North Fork FN solid, I'd think. I've a pic of a 300gr NF FN solid from a 300 H&H retrieved from an ele by a friend.

Your thoughts?

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I tend to think that a 400 grain mono such as the TSX and a mono flat point solid would be ideal in the 458 Win Mag+ for an all round load for any game on the planet

That is a straw man argument. Ron nor any of the rest of the steady thinkers made any such comparisons so; we leave it standing there alone in the ditch. Light it on fire if you must but it is folly.
We all enjoyed Sharpsguy and welcomed his knowledge and gifted shooting. I do believe he appreciated the mission as well.
My own contribution to the mission was to start the conversation about the 458 WM and cast bullets. Ron and others expanded that to a chapter or two with their research and results. I use smokeless and a 485 FN cast bullet at 1700 FPS or so to keep the venison coming and the elephants in hiding here on the Great Plains. Oh and killing myths one at a time.
Best regards sir,

LOL, all good to know Sir Ron, just going off a riverbed in Tanzania last October, slammed an old Dagga boy at 16 yards in the left side last rib at 2076 fps with a 750gr TSX from my 577 double, man it hurt him bad, he fell, and immediately began his death bellow, that said, bullet was in right shoulder under the hide, two petals gone, the .458 cal. 450gr TSX may be a little thicker, the right buff shows this fall, we shall see my Friend.

Sir Bob,
For all game large and small, and for all other sport, I am partial to .458 WM/+ bullets of whatever construction, weight and velocity gets the job done.
My thoughts are that you have got it figured well with your loads for the .458 WM/+, and I expect you shall not fail.

BTW, that picture of a .375-300gr North Fork solid recovered from an elephant would be interesting.

jwp475,
That is mighty enlightened of you.
We have a couple more seats at the round table if you want to be a Knight of the Crusade for Truth of the .458 Winchester Magnum.

Sir Dennis,
I presume you refer to arkypete's straw man comparison of the .45-70 Govt. versus the .458 WM.
Great imagery of leaving it standing alone in the ditch
versus lighting it on fire,
all as folly.
The Crusade for Truth is never ending.

Crusade for truth is very noble and I would be honored

Good to know that,
.585-caliber/ 750-gr TSX petals can be shed on a cape buffalo rib at about 2050 fps impact.
I never would have thunk that, but a cape buffalo rib is a lot stronger than a bison rib.

I expect brass hollow-point bullets to shed their petals even if thrown by hand at a buffalo.
I used to expect a lot more stick-to-it-ive-ness from a copper hollow-point bullet.

Sir,
thou must pick thy "SIR NAME" for thy title,
already taken:
Bob, Ron, Jerry, Mike, Spruce, Dennis, Bill Bagwell, Russ, Hannay, Charles

John

Sir John,

Consider yourself tapped on the shoulders with the flat of a Bill Bagwell Bowie.
We'll all get ours when Sir Jerry officiates at the meeting of the Round Table,
hopefully to occur before we all get together in the Happy Hunting Ground.

I sure do have a liking for .458-400gr bullets.
The 400-gr TSX was supposedly only ever made as a special run for Buffalo Bore, lately.
I have yet to test fire Bubba's 400-gr XTSX.
Maybe I should get some Buffalo Bore ammo for a shoot-off.
Those are supposedly only loaded to 2250 fps MV in the SAAMI .458 WM.
Heck, we can do that with hardcast, PC-painted, gas-checked 407 grainers, and do it accurately, in the SAAMI .458 WM,
sized to .460" to .461" for the .458" to .459"-grooved common barrel.

I suggest trying Bubba's 400-gr XTSX atop both 83.0 grains of AA-2460 and 83.0 grains of AA-2230,
and compare that to however much H4895 can be loaded with a drop tube and compressed without bulging a case.
All with a COL of 3.600", in the .458 WM+.
The 400-gr Woodleigh PPSN can go faster than 2600 fps with a COL of 3.425", which is too fast for its 2500 fps limit.
No limits on the 400-gr XTSX.

Bubba Bore ammo versus Buffalo Bore ammo for the shoot-off.
Plus some cast bullets to rub salt in it too.

We also have yet to try the 485-grain hardcast FN favored by Sir Dennis at 1700 fps.
I'll do that too, including +/- 500 fps for a 1000 fps spread with that bullet, centering on 1700 fps.

So many choices for deer and varmints!
I am tempted to use that 250-gr Hornady Monoflex at 2725 fps with 65 grains of AA-5744,
since it shoots groups half the size of the ones at 3075 fps with 82 grains of H4198,
both loaded to 3.340" COL.
The SAAMI-chambered .458 Winchester Magnum with a 24" barrel is a very versatile rifle.

Yessir Sir Ron, dont know where along the way the petals sheared, never found them, quick gut and load job on that buffalo at dusk, earlier i asked my PH why that herd of buffalo kept crossing the river back and forth, he said there's lions between us and them, they're trying to draw the lions out in the open, i asked would we see the lions, he said yes, if they dont want to eat us! little Wife went kinda pale in the face LOL!

Nice work on the other monos, those would absolutely have to get it done, Thanks.

Sir Jerry,
You raked that buffalo. Possibly a terminal impact of the expanded petals on a humerus in the offside shoulder knocked off half the petals ?
Anytime I try to make a rule of thumb regarding bullet behavior, I hammer it home by smashing my thumb with the hammer.

As you were.

Buffalo Bore Ammo

400-gr TSX and Hornady brass for .458 WM are not unobtainable, and no more expensive than any factory ammo nowadays.
Might ship same day as ordered if they are not swamped by orders. Pace yourself guys, try not to hoard.









Tim Sundles is smart like a fox. He knows he could easily load that 400-gr TSX well over 2250 fps in the SAAMI .458 WM.
But he knows that if his tight and slick little 18-incher is safe with 2250 fps, well that is fast enough, for selling to the public,
the vast majority of whom will get 2250 fps or better in their 24" factory rifles.
And that is just the sort of load that Finn Aagaard and Phil Shoemaker crowed about being better than any 500-grain soft nose in the .458 WM.
That is a WIN-WIN Winchester load, regarding both lawyers and gun gurus.



I wonder what rifle was used by Tim Sundles on that bear.
I suspect anything from .338-06 to .458 WM would be ideal for that kind of big, soft target.

Hopefully I will soon have some of those .458-400gr TSX in hand to see if they have the same nose as the 450-gr and 500-gr TSX.
Hard to tell by the photographs which might show different meplat sizes.

That’s pretty danged cool. His Classic is a twin to mine.

Need to try some of them bigger Bullets out it. I ain’t shot anything heavier than a 350 Hornady from it and I haven’t even broke the trigger on my 45-90 #1 Ruger yet!

Buffalo Bore did show some trajectory charts for the 400-gr TSX and 450-gr TSX at various MV.
The top for the 400-grainer was 2600 fps, and for the 450-grainer was 2500 fps.
Good limits for the sane .458 WM shooter.

Out to 300 yards, the 400-grainer is about 1 inch higher than the 450-grainer,
but has 3.6" of wind drift for the 400-grainer versus 3.3" for the 450-grainer.
The 400-grainer is supersonic to 725 yards, while the 450-grainer is supersonic to 784 yards.
400-grainer muzzle KE = 6003.1 ft-lbs.
450-grainer muzzle KE = 6244.0 ft-lbs.
Less recoil and adequate game-getting for the 400-grainer,
but the 450-grainer is going to be the champion gong-ringer at 1125 yards.

Those will land with a kerplunk. Gosh darn, I wouldn’t wanna try to catch them with a mitt.