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So what do you believe? How do you think the Universe came into existence? To believe the Universe appeared from nothing takes greater faith than believing in Christianity. I think that quote came from someone else. You may have grabbed from the wrong poster. It's not something I'd say. I made no claim that the universe came from nothing. I made no claim of knowing how it came about or if it did; it may be cyclic, a part of a multiverse or something yet unknown. I don't pretend to know. There is no empirical evidence for either a static or multiverse. Science requires empirical evidence. They are just science fiction in the minds of physicists who disbelieve in God. There is empirical evidence for a single point of Creation of time and ALL matter. There is logical evidence for a creator. The evidence is for a supernatural Creator. For example, https://www.reasonablefaith.org/wri...-of-god/the-kalam-cosmological-argument/https://www.reasonablefaith.org/wri...al-argument-and-the-anthropic-principle/Nobody has to believe in a multiverse or anything else. Science doesn't work like that. Multiverse, Branes, Cyclic Universe, etc, are proposals that need to be tested. And yes, the evidence shows that the Universe began 13. 7 billion years or so ago....but that means in its present form. It is not known whether time began with the BB. The universe could be cyclic, it could be a part of a multiverse....the point is: we don't know. Then you live by faith. The faith that there is no God. The faith that science will explain the origin the universe and of physics itself. The multiverse is not empirically testable. That is what makes it the perfect atheist fantasy. Branes are not an alternative explanation for the origin of the universe. There is positive evidence against a cyclic universe.
And: we don't know, therefore God, is not a solution.
The correct answer is: we don't know.
You don't understand deductive reasoning. Nope. I'm aware of no god claims that have met their burden of proof. Not accepting a claim that has not met it's burden of proof requires no faith. Like wise, not accepting your god claim does not equate to a faith "that science will explain the origin the universe (sic) and of physics itself." To date the scientific method is the best pathway for discovering the truth, but in no way implies all truths will be discovered. As for "deductive reasoning", a false dichotomy is a logical fallacy, not deductive reasoning.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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There are about 4000 recognized religions. Maybe there is some truth in a lot of those religions. There is definitely some profound wisdom in some of em’. God has written His law on our hearts and we are made in His image. We all know this in a deep and abiding way that even scientistic materialism and post modern relativism can’t erase. A cursory examination of history reveals religious practices all around the world which point to a deep hunger in the human heart to be reconciled to some creator for some wrong we sense in ourselves. The lengths to which men will go to deny this shows what a chasm our fall has created between us and the holy just and almighty uncaused first cause who has written His story around reconciliation and redemption. Bless His holy name. If this was true, there would be one religion held by all, and that's just not the case.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 07/23/21.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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If this was true, there would be one religion held by all, and that's just not the case.
How does that, by necessity, follow from what I said?
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If this was true, there would be one religion held by all, and that's just not the case.
How does that, by necessity, follow from what I said? One True God writing his True Message on the heart of every person would not lead to 4k different religions, nor religions that kill each other over their differences.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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So, using your metric for logical decision making (ie proving that something doesn’t exist, or proving the negative), (Nope, never did this.....never came up with any metric to prove something does or does not exist...).
You say that just because I haven’t seen any evidence of a god that I can’t definitively say they don’t exist. The lack of evidence is proof to me that a god doesn’t exist but you don’t seem to buy this. I never saw anyone drive the car out of the driveway and park onto the street, doesn’t mean, aliens, ghosts or god moved it and would be preposterous to try and prove this negative, so not even worth considering. Proving the negative was an idiotic notion that you started – I get it, it’s not relevant and just plain stupid – it doesn’t mean anything worthwhile. Like I said it leads into infinite fairytale possibilities.
how did you manage to disprove the existence of all the other gods in order to select the one that you did? (Nope, never made any attempt to disprove the existence of all the other gods..... more fabrication on your part.)
Under your logic for me all gods fall into the category of can’t know for sure that they don’t exist, but you yourself have chosen a god thereby nullifying the thought of considering any others (exclusive deity). I have undertaken a similar decision process but concluded that there are no gods, and you tell me I can’t do that. Rather than accepting that as my position, you point out that I could wrong. I say: I don’t believe in a god because I haven’t seen evidence, and there has been a long history of no evidence. You say: Doesn’t mean there’s no god (ie implying that I could be wrong). Like it or not, I have reached my decision.
This is the criteria that you are applying to others so lets hope you have not been hypocritical or deceitful and can provide an honest answer. (I’ll bet you don’t though.) (Well, I think I did answer.)
See above. Why do you keep insisting on the “doesn’t mean god doesn’t exist” line? Also note that you can count the ticks on a dog, if you really want to. I conclude that you simply refuse to understand or more likely, you do not comprehend. What you choose to believe is up to you, and irrelevant to me providing you don't try and push your crap om me. Well, your last comment is amusing. If you show up in an open forum and spout nonsense, you should not be surprised if someone calls bs on you. Like I said: “Nope, you’ve got it all wrong. Just because YOU don’t see it…. and YOU have not experienced it….does not mean it’s not there. Simple concept….. simple idea… but you don’t get it.”
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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If this was true, there would be one religion held by all, and that's just not the case.
How does that, by necessity, follow from what I said? One True God writing his True Message on the heart of every person would not lead to 4k different religions, nor religions that kill each other over their differences. I have noticed a constant in the human race whether it be seeking the truth about creation and the creator, governing a country, fighting a disease, or whatever. There is always an attempt to cash in by bad and powerful people and entities and screwing up any good that could come. The ''Christian'' church is one of the worst examples in the last 2000 years. The church and the nations that have used it as cover have killed millions and millions all for the purpose of maintaining power, gaining territory, and to maintain social stratification. God and Jesus got left in the dust. Is it any wonder God and Jesus have such a bad name with so many people? Jesus is undeservedly known by his self proclaimed friends who actually don't even know him.
Patriotism (and religion) is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
Jesus: "Take heed that no man deceive you."
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So what do you believe? How do you think the Universe came into existence? To believe the Universe appeared from nothing takes greater faith than believing in Christianity. I think that quote came from someone else. You may have grabbed from the wrong poster. It's not something I'd say. I made no claim that the universe came from nothing. I made no claim of knowing how it came about or if it did; it may be cyclic, a part of a multiverse or something yet unknown. I don't pretend to know. There is no empirical evidence for either a static or multiverse. Science requires empirical evidence. They are just science fiction in the minds of physicists who disbelieve in God. There is empirical evidence for a single point of Creation of time and ALL matter. There is logical evidence for a creator. The evidence is for a supernatural Creator. For example, https://www.reasonablefaith.org/wri...-of-god/the-kalam-cosmological-argument/https://www.reasonablefaith.org/wri...al-argument-and-the-anthropic-principle/Nobody has to believe in a multiverse or anything else. Science doesn't work like that. Multiverse, Branes, Cyclic Universe, etc, are proposals that need to be tested. And yes, the evidence shows that the Universe began 13. 7 billion years or so ago....but that means in its present form. It is not known whether time began with the BB. The universe could be cyclic, it could be a part of a multiverse....the point is: we don't know. Then you live by faith. The faith that there is no God. The faith that science will explain the origin the universe and of physics itself. The multiverse is not empirically testable. That is what makes it the perfect atheist fantasy. Branes are not an alternative explanation for the origin of the universe. There is positive evidence against a cyclic universe.
And: we don't know, therefore God, is not a solution.
The correct answer is: we don't know.
You don't understand deductive reasoning. Wrong, to believe without the support of evidence requires faith. Not knowing something is not a belief. It is a state of being: you don't know but you are willing to consider possibilities. Faith is a conclusion, the assumption of knowledge, that God (whatever that is) in fact created the world....when no such thing is known.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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If this was true, there would be one religion held by all, and that's just not the case.
How does that, by necessity, follow from what I said? One True God writing his True Message on the heart of every person would not lead to 4k different religions, nor religions that kill each other over their differences. I have noticed a constant in the human race whether it be seeking the truth about creation and the creator, governing a country, fighting a disease, or whatever. There is always an attempt to cash in by bad and powerful people and entities and screwing up any good that could come. The ''Christian'' church is one of the worst examples in the last 2000 years. The church and the nations that have used it as cover have killed millions and millions all for the purpose of maintaining power, gaining territory, and to maintain social stratification. God and Jesus got left in the dust. Is it any wonder God and Jesus have such a bad name with so many people? Jesus is undeservedly known by his self proclaimed friends who actually don't even know him. Hastings my friend, my comments were not intended as a knock on Christianity per se, as religions go, there are many far worse, it was just intended to demonstrate how efw's claim doesn't match the observed fact pattern....and you gave a good example as to why from Christian history.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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I have noticed a constant in the human race whether it be seeking the truth about creation and the creator, governing a country, fighting a disease, or whatever. There is always an attempt to cash in by bad and powerful people and entities and screwing up any good that could come. The ''Christian'' church is one of the worst examples in the last 2000 years. The church and the nations that have used it as cover have killed millions and millions all for the purpose of maintaining power, gaining territory, and to maintain social stratification. God and Jesus got left in the dust. Is it any wonder God and Jesus have such a bad name with so many people? Jesus is undeservedly known by his self proclaimed friends who actually don't even know him. I don’t hear too many people bad mouthing Jesus, and never have. I have heard some bad mouth God for allowing pain and suffering in the world. But I’ve heard a great many people bad mouth ‘the Church’ for the reasons that you describe above (and more), and still do, and rightfully so.
Every day on this side of the ground is a win.
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When I started this, I did not know there , WAS, a Flat Earth Society!
Like Foghorn Leghorn, says, It's a joke son. Kinda like you ,son
FUGK CCP
It’s time to WAKE UP
GOD BLESS THE USA
WWG1WGA
THERE ARE NO COINCIDENCES
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M9...
Here is what you posted:
I say:
I don’t believe in a god because I haven’t seen evidence, and there has been a long history of no evidence.
You say:
Doesn’t mean there’s no god (ie implying that I could be wrong). (Yep)
Like it or not, I have reached my decision.
Your initial statement was that God did not exist and that belief in god required a great leap of faith... ie belief in something that does not exist. You were mocking "belief."
You got backed into a corner ...you could not back up what you said and could not admit that you were wrong,,,,,you are now again waffling.... ....you attempted to recast your position and have now altered your position...NOW you say that you don't believe because you "haven't seen the evidence."
Yes, of course you could be wrong.....My comment stands .... just because YOU have not experienced God does not mean that He does not exist. You cannot possibly know that God does not exist.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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If this was true, there would be one religion held by all, and that's just not the case.
How does that, by necessity, follow from what I said? One True God writing his True Message on the heart of every person would not lead to 4k different religions, nor religions that kill each other over their differences. Well, let me offer up a view.... "Writing the Law of God on a heart" may not the same as writing the "True Message" on the heart of every person. Understanding ... and interpretation.... kinda depends on definitions. The Law of God as I refer to here can be interpreted as knowing right from wrong.... having your "conscience" active in a person. We all know that we have done "wrong".... performed acts and spoken lies and spoken hate filled words...done wrongful "things".... done old fashioned sin...... I have done many....so have you and everybody else reading this post. We are all the same in that regard. Writing the "Law" on a heart allows a person to judge right from wrong behavior.... and some times, right and wrong thought. The "Law" allows a person to recognize "sin." "True Message" does have... or can have an important definition.... Not a bad term in my opinion... Anyway... the True Message can be delivered to a person's "heart." Action by the Holy Spirit if you will.... to show the person the truth about sinful behavior.... show the truth about God not being ok with sin.... and showing the truth about Jesus and forgiveness. A "True Message" indeed. So, a man can have the "Law" written on his heart so he can see right and wrong... ie "sin".... then that man can have the "True Message" delivered to him.... right to his doorstep, so-to-speak..... BUT, here is where the rub comes in. That man can reject the True Message ......because of his regard for his life, love of his lifestyle... or plain old pride in himself. So, in this view... and I call it "view" as my understanding in many aspects of doctrine is incomplete.... the "view" holds that the True Message can be delivered and then rejected.... leaving the man in the same state he was before the message was delivered. YMMV..... TF
Last edited by TF49; 07/24/21. Reason: spel
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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If this was true, there would be one religion held by all, and that's just not the case.
How does that, by necessity, follow from what I said? One True God writing his True Message on the heart of every person would not lead to 4k different religions, nor religions that kill each other over their differences. Well, let me offer up a view.... "Writing the Law of God on a heart" may not the same as writing the "True Message" on the heart of every person. Understanding ... and interpretation.... kinda depends on definitions. The Law of God as I refer to here can be interpreted as knowing right from wrong.... having your "conscience" active in a person. We all know that we have done "wrong".... performed acts and spoken lies and spoken hate filled words...done wrongful "things".... done old fashioned sin...... I have done many....so have you and everybody else reading this post. We are all the same in that regard. Writing the "Law" on a heart allows a person to judge right from wrong behavior.... and some times, right and wrong thought. The "Law" allows a person to recognize "sin." "True Message" does have... or can have an important definition.... Not a bad term in my opinion... Anyway... the True Message can be delivered to a person's "heart." Action by the Holy Spirit if you will.... to show the person the truth about sinful behavior.... show the truth about God not being ok with sin.... and showing the truth about Jesus and forgiveness. A "True Message" indeed. So, a man can have the "Law" written on his heart so he can see right and wrong... ie "sin".... then that man can have the "True Message" delivered to him.... right to his doorstep, so-to-speak..... BUT, here is where the rub comes in. That man can reject the True Message ......because of his regard for his life, love of his lifestyle... or plain old pride in himself. So, in this view... and I call it "view" as my understanding in many aspects of doctrine is incomplete.... the "view" holds that the True Message can be delivered and then rejected.... leaving the man in the same state he was before the message was delivered. YMMV..... TF To me your "view" sounds like a post hoc rationalization for the fact that the observed behavior does not support the expected results of your hypothesis. We can quibble about what it means for an all knowing, all powerful, all kind being to " put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts" (Jeremiah 31:33), but if you want to go with law, the First Commandment in Exodus 20 is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.", yet there are thousands of religions and less than a third of all people on earth are Christian, and most of those would fail to meet the campfire standard of "True Christian", so regardless of who you dress up your justification, the claim that your God wrote his law on the heart of every person fails to hold up under scrutiny.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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...there are thousands of religions and less than a third of all people on earth are Christian,... Out of the “thousands of religions” fully “a third of all people on earth” profess to be Christians...that’s a significantly huge number under the circumstances that you mentioned.
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If this was true, there would be one religion held by all, and that's just not the case.
How does that, by necessity, follow from what I said? One True God writing his True Message on the heart of every person would not lead to 4k different religions, nor religions that kill each other over their differences. Well, let me offer up a view.... "Writing the Law of God on a heart" may not the same as writing the "True Message" on the heart of every person. Understanding ... and interpretation.... kinda depends on definitions. The Law of God as I refer to here can be interpreted as knowing right from wrong.... having your "conscience" active in a person. We all know that we have done "wrong".... performed acts and spoken lies and spoken hate filled words...done wrongful "things".... done old fashioned sin...... I have done many....so have you and everybody else reading this post. We are all the same in that regard. Writing the "Law" on a heart allows a person to judge right from wrong behavior.... and some times, right and wrong thought. The "Law" allows a person to recognize "sin." "True Message" does have... or can have an important definition.... Not a bad term in my opinion... Anyway... the True Message can be delivered to a person's "heart." Action by the Holy Spirit if you will.... to show the person the truth about sinful behavior.... show the truth about God not being ok with sin.... and showing the truth about Jesus and forgiveness. A "True Message" indeed. So, a man can have the "Law" written on his heart so he can see right and wrong... ie "sin".... then that man can have the "True Message" delivered to him.... right to his doorstep, so-to-speak..... BUT, here is where the rub comes in. That man can reject the True Message ......because of his regard for his life, love of his lifestyle... or plain old pride in himself. So, in this view... and I call it "view" as my understanding in many aspects of doctrine is incomplete.... the "view" holds that the True Message can be delivered and then rejected.... leaving the man in the same state he was before the message was delivered. YMMV..... TF To me your "view" sounds like a post hoc rationalization for the fact that the observed behavior does not support the expected results of your hypothesis. We can quibble about what it means for an all knowing, all powerful, all kind being to " put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts" (Jeremiah 31:33), but if you want to go with law, the First Commandment in Exodus 20 is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.", yet there are thousands of religions and less than a third of all people on earth are Christian, and most of those would fail to meet the campfire standard of "True Christian", so regardless of who you dress up your justification, the claim that your God wrote his law on the heart of every person fails to hold up under scrutiny. Ok…. But can the “First Law” be “known” or even acknowledged by a man and then rejected? Edit to add: I have heard many sermons about “who is on the throne of your life.” Is God on the throne or are “you” so-to-speak on the throne…. In one’s life…. Who is behind the wheel?
Last edited by TF49; 07/24/21. Reason: Add thought
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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If this was true, there would be one religion held by all, and that's just not the case.
How does that, by necessity, follow from what I said? One True God writing his True Message on the heart of every person would not lead to 4k different religions, nor religions that kill each other over their differences. Well, let me offer up a view.... "Writing the Law of God on a heart" may not the same as writing the "True Message" on the heart of every person. Understanding ... and interpretation.... kinda depends on definitions. The Law of God as I refer to here can be interpreted as knowing right from wrong.... having your "conscience" active in a person. We all know that we have done "wrong".... performed acts and spoken lies and spoken hate filled words...done wrongful "things".... done old fashioned sin...... I have done many....so have you and everybody else reading this post. We are all the same in that regard. Writing the "Law" on a heart allows a person to judge right from wrong behavior.... and some times, right and wrong thought. The "Law" allows a person to recognize "sin." "True Message" does have... or can have an important definition.... Not a bad term in my opinion... Anyway... the True Message can be delivered to a person's "heart." Action by the Holy Spirit if you will.... to show the person the truth about sinful behavior.... show the truth about God not being ok with sin.... and showing the truth about Jesus and forgiveness. A "True Message" indeed. So, a man can have the "Law" written on his heart so he can see right and wrong... ie "sin".... then that man can have the "True Message" delivered to him.... right to his doorstep, so-to-speak..... BUT, here is where the rub comes in. That man can reject the True Message ......because of his regard for his life, love of his lifestyle... or plain old pride in himself. So, in this view... and I call it "view" as my understanding in many aspects of doctrine is incomplete.... the "view" holds that the True Message can be delivered and then rejected.... leaving the man in the same state he was before the message was delivered. YMMV..... TF To me your "view" sounds like a post hoc rationalization for the fact that the observed behavior does not support the expected results of your hypothesis. We can quibble about what it means for an all knowing, all powerful, all kind being to " put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts" (Jeremiah 31:33), but if you want to go with law, the First Commandment in Exodus 20 is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.", yet there are thousands of religions and less than a third of all people on earth are Christian, and most of those would fail to meet the campfire standard of "True Christian", so regardless of who you dress up your justification, the claim that your God wrote his law on the heart of every person fails to hold up under scrutiny. Ok…. But can the “First Law” be “known” or even acknowledged by a man and then rejected? Can it be written on your heart by the all knowing, all powerful, all kind creator of the universe in a way that it is "known to be true" and then rejected by most of the people on Earth? That my friend is a hard no.
Last edited by antelope_sniper; 07/24/21.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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If this was true, there would be one religion held by all, and that's just not the case.
How does that, by necessity, follow from what I said? One True God writing his True Message on the heart of every person would not lead to 4k different religions, nor religions that kill each other over their differences. Well, let me offer up a view.... "Writing the Law of God on a heart" may not the same as writing the "True Message" on the heart of every person. Understanding ... and interpretation.... kinda depends on definitions. The Law of God as I refer to here can be interpreted as knowing right from wrong.... having your "conscience" active in a person. We all know that we have done "wrong".... performed acts and spoken lies and spoken hate filled words...done wrongful "things".... done old fashioned sin...... I have done many....so have you and everybody else reading this post. We are all the same in that regard. Writing the "Law" on a heart allows a person to judge right from wrong behavior.... and some times, right and wrong thought. The "Law" allows a person to recognize "sin." "True Message" does have... or can have an important definition.... Not a bad term in my opinion... Anyway... the True Message can be delivered to a person's "heart." Action by the Holy Spirit if you will.... to show the person the truth about sinful behavior.... show the truth about God not being ok with sin.... and showing the truth about Jesus and forgiveness. A "True Message" indeed. So, a man can have the "Law" written on his heart so he can see right and wrong... ie "sin".... then that man can have the "True Message" delivered to him.... right to his doorstep, so-to-speak..... BUT, here is where the rub comes in. That man can reject the True Message ......because of his regard for his life, love of his lifestyle... or plain old pride in himself. So, in this view... and I call it "view" as my understanding in many aspects of doctrine is incomplete.... the "view" holds that the True Message can be delivered and then rejected.... leaving the man in the same state he was before the message was delivered. YMMV..... TF To me your "view" sounds like a post hoc rationalization for the fact that the observed behavior does not support the expected results of your hypothesis. We can quibble about what it means for an all knowing, all powerful, all kind being to " put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts" (Jeremiah 31:33), but if you want to go with law, the First Commandment in Exodus 20 is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.", yet there are thousands of religions and less than a third of all people on earth are Christian, and most of those would fail to meet the campfire standard of "True Christian", so regardless of who you dress up your justification, the claim that your God wrote his law on the heart of every person fails to hold up under scrutiny. Ok…. But can the “First Law” be “known” or even acknowledged by a man and then rejected? Can it be written on your heart by the all knowing, all powerful, all kind creator of the universe in a way that it is "known to be true" and then rejected by most of the people on Earth? That my friend is a hard no. Well, I disagree. There have been many times in my life when I knew right from wrong and chose to do wrong. I was a “lawbreaker.” I have been “guilty” of breaking the “Law”. Before my salvation and after. And further, here I am, a born again Christian believer, and yet I find myself going against God’s will…. Pretty much daily….. The problem is fleshly desires…. Sinful habits that can will willing chosen by born again believers. You and I see that. I have never met a born again Christian that did not sin or have problems with obedience to God. My view….yes…. The message can indeed be rejected. Something can be known to be true and right, but man, can chose to yield to those powerful fleshly desires and therefore sin. Good discussion though…. But I am hosting bbq today and gotta get after it…..later…
Last edited by TF49; 07/24/21.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
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Joined: Jan 2016
Posts: 95,680
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Jan 2016
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If this was true, there would be one religion held by all, and that's just not the case.
BS, AS.
So youre saying some wouldnt worship nookie or money or monkeys or cows?
So your saying if GOD were THE GOD, HE would be wrong in saying satan would lead people astray, that some wouldn't worship the golden bull.
Your circular thinking proves you to be wrong.
Ecc 10:2
The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but that of a fool to the left.
A Nation which leaves God behind is soon left behind.
"The Lord never asked anyone to be a tax collector, lowyer, or Redskins fan".
I Dindo Nuffin
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,963 |
If this was true, there would be one religion held by all, and that's just not the case.
How does that, by necessity, follow from what I said? One True God writing his True Message on the heart of every person would not lead to 4k different religions, nor religions that kill each other over their differences. Well, let me offer up a view.... "Writing the Law of God on a heart" may not the same as writing the "True Message" on the heart of every person. Understanding ... and interpretation.... kinda depends on definitions. The Law of God as I refer to here can be interpreted as knowing right from wrong.... having your "conscience" active in a person. We all know that we have done "wrong".... performed acts and spoken lies and spoken hate filled words...done wrongful "things".... done old fashioned sin...... I have done many....so have you and everybody else reading this post. We are all the same in that regard. Writing the "Law" on a heart allows a person to judge right from wrong behavior.... and some times, right and wrong thought. The "Law" allows a person to recognize "sin." "True Message" does have... or can have an important definition.... Not a bad term in my opinion... Anyway... the True Message can be delivered to a person's "heart." Action by the Holy Spirit if you will.... to show the person the truth about sinful behavior.... show the truth about God not being ok with sin.... and showing the truth about Jesus and forgiveness. A "True Message" indeed. So, a man can have the "Law" written on his heart so he can see right and wrong... ie "sin".... then that man can have the "True Message" delivered to him.... right to his doorstep, so-to-speak..... BUT, here is where the rub comes in. That man can reject the True Message ......because of his regard for his life, love of his lifestyle... or plain old pride in himself. So, in this view... and I call it "view" as my understanding in many aspects of doctrine is incomplete.... the "view" holds that the True Message can be delivered and then rejected.... leaving the man in the same state he was before the message was delivered. YMMV..... TF To me your "view" sounds like a post hoc rationalization for the fact that the observed behavior does not support the expected results of your hypothesis. We can quibble about what it means for an all knowing, all powerful, all kind being to " put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts" (Jeremiah 31:33), but if you want to go with law, the First Commandment in Exodus 20 is "Thou shalt have no other gods before me.", yet there are thousands of religions and less than a third of all people on earth are Christian, and most of those would fail to meet the campfire standard of "True Christian", so regardless of who you dress up your justification, the claim that your God wrote his law on the heart of every person fails to hold up under scrutiny. Ok…. But can the “First Law” be “known” or even acknowledged by a man and then rejected? Can it be written on your heart by the all knowing, all powerful, all kind creator of the universe in a way that it is "known to be true" and then rejected by most of the people on Earth? That my friend is a hard no. Well, I disagree. There have been many times in my life when I knew right from wrong and chose to do wrong. I was a “lawbreaker.” I have been “guilty” of breaking the “Law”. Before my salvation and after. And further, here I am, a born again Christian believer, and yet I find myself going against God’s will…. Pretty much daily….. The problem is fleshly desires…. Sinful habits that can will willing chosen by born again believers. You and I see that. I have never met a born again Christian that did not sin or have problems with obedience to God. My view….yes…. The message can indeed be rejected. Something can be known to be true and right, but man, can chose to yield to those powerful fleshly desires and therefore sin. Good discussion though…. But I am hosting bbq today and gotta get after it…..later… TF, Perhaps part of the difference he is I'm looking at this from the Macro view, while you are applying the Micro-analysis. I never said people would not make mistakes nor yield to their earthly desires. What I am saying is that if what you claim is true in the manner I described above we wouldn't have thousands of religions and the majority of people would not be non-Christian. If the Christian God wrote his Christian Law on the heart of EVERY person on Earth is a way that they KNEW it to be true, Christianity would be THE defacto religion on Earth. Yes, there would be more "failed Christians", but in a near universal manner, EVERYONE would be Christian, because they would KNOW it to be true.......but that's not what we see.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,963
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 30,963 |
If this was true, there would be one religion held by all, and that's just not the case.
BS, AS.
So youre saying some wouldnt worship nookie or money or monkeys or cows?
So your saying if GOD were THE GOD, HE would be wrong in saying satan would lead people astray, that some wouldn't worship the golden bull.
Your circular thinking proves you to be wrong.
I'm not the one who just employed circular reasoning....Where did you get your under graduate, the University of Boston, because like AOC, you deserve a refund.
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
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