Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

LOL, Sir Ron, the mad cow killer before 'mad cow' was a thing, great story and pics, Thanks! smile]

And yessir, a 450gr TSX leaving at 2420 fps would buzzsaw that wildebeest, maybe length ways, never mind the 500gr TBSS, it'd be a long goner.

"Farmer called me and I went out to the farm with a Mk V Deluxe .460 Wby and 500-gr RNSN at supposed 2700 fps, a factory load."

"A shot to middle of chest at 50 yards on the running cow just made her come to a standstill, stood there bleeding from the nose".

"As my gunbearer and I hurriedly skinned the mad cow, we could not find anything of the 500-gr RNSN in the mess inside the mad cow's chest."

Ron,
I noted a difference in bullet design (More lead exposed in the tip) from late 80's to late 90's in that Hornady 500 grainer so it was evolving in design or retooled?
Secondly, I shot that bullet loaded to 2500fps into a scrub bull's shoulder and it expanded and stopped in the membrane behind the shoulder between the shoulder muscle and ribs but did not penetrate the rib cage. Shot the balance of what I had loaded up on pigs and brumbies (wild horses) after that.

I think that bullet as released to the handloader was only ever designed for the 2100ish of the .458. It is also possible that Hornady did a slightly heavier jacketed version for the Weatherby Factory Ammo as I also noted 2 different .416 cal 400 gain Hornady bullets. After owning 3 .416 Weathery's and a .416 Remington, I noted that the factory Weatherby ammo had a more parallel sided body shape meeting with the round nose whereas the handloader version had a .416 shank to the cannelure then a tapered ogive to meet up with the round nose. It was obviously different.

I tried to get a box of factory .416 ammo for comparison but the distributor told me they were too expensive to give away to writers even though I wrote more articles on Weatherby rifles that the whole market combined back then. To be fair, he did send me a complimentary Weatherby The Man, The Gun, The Legend Book which I appreciated.

John

Sir Woods wrote:

I noted a difference in bullet design (More lead exposed in the tip) from late 80's to late 90's in that Hornady 500 grainer so it was evolving in design or retooled?
Secondly, I shot that bullet loaded to 2500fps into a scrub bull's shoulder and it expanded and stopped in the membrane behind the shoulder between the shoulder muscle and ribs but did not penetrate the rib cage. Shot the balance of what I had loaded up on pigs and brumbies (wild horses) after that.

AH SO ! My .460 factory ammo from Weatherby was from late 1980's to late 1990's production.
At faster velocity into a bovine ribcage the old Hornady bullet disintegrated instead of over-expanding and being stopped by shoulder.

I think that bullet as released to the handloader was only ever designed for the 2100ish of the .458.

My 1987 vintage Hornady .458-500gr RNSN was over stressed by being handloaded to 2150 fps MV from a 24"-barreled .458 WM.
It separated into 3 chunks, an intact, empty jacket and 2 chunks of lead on a cow moose (special drawing permit at Fort Richardson, AK).
Each of the 3 bullet chunks broke a rib on the offside of the cow moose. Bang flop.
It was a spectacular success of a bullet failure: 600 pounds of processed deliciousness from the butcher shop.

It is also possible that Hornady did a slightly heavier jacketed version for the Weatherby Factory Ammo as I also noted 2 different .416 cal 400 gain Hornady bullets. After owning 3 .416 Weathery's and a .416 Remington, I noted that the factory Weatherby ammo had a more parallel sided body shape meeting with the round nose whereas the handloader version had a .416 shank to the cannelure then a tapered ogive to meet up with the round nose. It was obviously different.

Hornady ! Bless their hearts they finally came up with some decent softnose-expanding bullets with the DGX Bonded.
I suspected same as you with those older cup&core designs.
Another thing I noted when I first started shooting the .416 Rigby, was that the old Swift A-Frame 400-grainer, when seated to the cannelure,
could not be chambered in the no-throat .416 Rigby, due to the bullet being full .416" diameter forward of the cannelure.
Later the Swift ogive changed to fit in the .416 Rigby.

I tried to get a box of factory .416 ammo for comparison but the distributor told me they were too expensive to give away to writers even though I wrote more articles on Weatherby rifles that the whole market combined back then. To be fair, he did send me a complimentary Weatherby The Man, The Gun, The Legend Book which I appreciated.
END QUOTE


Sir Woods,

I have that book about Roy on my shelf, by Grits Gresham and Tom Gresham, for reference purposes, of course, not hero worship.
Whenever I came into "big walkin' around money," I used to go buy a box of .416 Weatherby Magnum ammo for my stash.
Just preparing for the Zombie Apocalypse.

Everyman's All Purpose Rifle Standard:

M98, M70, or M77 (CRF) SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum, with a standard 3.42" inside-length magazine box.

Load that box with 3.340" COL routinely.
Single load with special purpose rounds up to 3.540" COL.

3.540" COL is the maximum, unfired COL that can be ejected by cranking the bolt of my rifles.

We can get about any .458-400gr bullet to surpass 2400 fps MV from a 24" barrel at 3.340" COL.
That is really plenty for all-purpose use.

Special Purpose:
We can get a selected 400-grainer over 2500 fps from a 24" barrel at 3.395" COL.
We can get a selected 400-grainer over 2600 fps from a 24" barrel at 3.425" COL.
The former works through the magazine of the Standard rifle, the latter does not.
Single load the latter.

Sir Jerry,
Yes, I was researching "Mad Cow Disease" circa 1995, before it was "a thing."
Buy a Donkey for that funny.
You are certainly well armed with a 450-gr TSX from a .458 WM+ at 2420 fps MV.
I would fear no mad cow even if I limited myself to 2400 fps with a .458/ 400-grainer.

I am thinking about 30 rounds is the recommended interval for cleaning of a mixed fouling with gilding metal, brass/bronze, and copper-monometal bullets.
Daisy was tried with a pin gage when she was so fouled.
.450" would not pass her muzzle.
.449" would enter and catch on the fouling a few inches down the barrel.
So the Ruger No. 1 .458 WM might be a true .450"-bore by pin gage, and .459"-grooved by slugging when clean.

I still say that the cleanest shooting ammunition that I know of is duplexed BP under a grease cookie and a paper-patched lead bullet.
Self-cleaned by the paper patch with each shot.
The .458 WM is ideal for those if allowed to be loaded Long-COL.

Besides the duplexed BP, many smokeless powders are excellent in the .458 Winchester Magnum.
About anything between the burn rates of H4895 and AA-5744 will find a job to do.
The SAAMI .458 WM at 3.340" and 60,000 psi will do it all from a 24" barrel:
600-grainer at 2000 fps
550-grainer at 2100 fps
500-grainer at 2200 fps
450-grainer at 2300 fps
400-grainer at 2400 fps
350-grainer at 2600 fps
300-grainer at 2800 fps (vaporization velocity of Sierra Pro Hunter, so use a monometal for sure at or above this velocity)
250 grainer at 3000 fps

The only thing of consequence that the .458 Lott can do any better is birdshot loads for a rat killin'.

Q: How are big-D Democrats and Lottites similar ?
A: In more ways than they are different.
They are both habitual practitioners of sophistry,
the use of fallacious arguments with the intention of deceiving.

Bubba wants to redesign the XTSX .458-400-grainer, thinking it would be best to shorten the nose a little
so he does not have to excavate so much copper out of the hollowpoint to make exactly 400.0-grain weight.
Actually that 400-gr TSX from Buffalo bore is almost perfect,
Next outing I will compare the factory load at 3.310" COL
to a 3.540" COL with mo'powder.

Ron,
Something not covered much in this thread is cartridge feeding.
Obviously, I have had opportunity to handle a few different rifles over the years but I must comment that the .458 has to be the slickest easy to feed cartridge in my safe and among the top 2 I can recall for slick feeding. A magazine full plus one is as smooth as mechanical thrust can allow.

This equates to a reliability and trustworthiness that is a positive aspect when stalking game. A dangerous game rifle is both tool and life insurance policy. The trust has to be submissive, so that it never again enters your mind. Coming from a guy who lives by "trust nothing and check everything", my .458 Model 70 is as slick as a Honeymoon d*ck.
John

I agree with you on that!

Ha! I'm going to be using that expression!

Cheers,
John

Sir Woods,
Buy a donkey for that funny.
Sure as shootin' an important reminder and a hoot to boot.
Maybe little mentioned previously because the mighty .458 WM is so trouble free.
It is time for me to get back to bolt actions.
Daisy the Ruger No. 1 was rode hard Friday but not put up wet.
44 rounds fired at 85 degrees F, at a 100-yard target, through a 5-yard chronograph.
Will put up some reports on the so-called 400-grainer Shootoff after my nap.

Ron,
To help the reader understand the accuracy and achieve-ability in what you stated above, I will add a few loads utilizing the stated SAAMI specs taken with a 22" barrel excepting the 600gn loads, shot using a CZ550 with 25" barrel.

NOTE: All loads chronographed on my Oehler 35P and I never correct muzzle velocities so a few FPS can be added to round up the numbers if you wish.

John

Buy a donkey to Sir Woods for this, in The SAAMI .458 WM at 3.340" and 60,000 psi, some good data for the record:

600-grainer: 1978fps using 72gn AR2206 with Barnes Original .049"Jacket RN
550-grainer: 2048fps using 70gn H 322 with Woodleigh 550gn Weldcore
500-grainer: 2178fps using 78gn AR2206 with Hornady 500gnRN FMJ
450-grainer: 2359fps using 68gn H4198 with Barnes 450gn TSX
400-grainer: 2434fps using 74gn H4198 with Barnes 400gn X bullet
350-grainer: 2582fps using 78gn H4198 or 2556fps using 80gn H322
300-grainer: 2640fps using 75gn AR2207 with 300gn Barnes X (H4198)or 2545fps using78gn H322 with 300gn Barnes 45/70HP
250 grainer: I have not used 250grainers in the .458 though achieved 2650fps in a 45/70 using 60gn H4198 with Barnes 250gn TSX HP in the Marlin Cowboy 26" Barrel.
... a few loads utilizing the stated SAAMI specs (.458 Winchester Magnum) taken with a 22" barrel excepting the 600gn loads, shot using a CZ550 with 25" barrel.

NOTE: All loads chronographed on my Oehler 35P and I never correct muzzle velocities so a few FPS can be added to round up the numbers if you wish.

By John Woods aka Aussie GunWriter.

Alas, the 400-grainer Shootoff with Daisy the Ruger No. 1 has been marred by the old girl developing some vertical stringing,
or by the nut behind the trigger developing it.
I will check out all of Daisy's joints for tightness, at buttstock-to-action, forearm hanger, quarter rib, and scope.

At least I think the velocity data is good, even if accuracy comparisons must wait.
I had 29 pieces of brass ready for handloads, and fired 10 rounds of the Buffalo Bore ammo and 5 rounds of Hornady factory ammo.
Handloads were for 5 bullets of each of 5 different bullets
except 4 only of the Barnes Buster to make a total of 29.
29 + 10 + 5 = 44





First load fired was the ball-pointed 423-grainer from Bubba.
It was aimed at the center line between two 16" square targets at 100 yards, one above the other, no space between them on the cardboard backer.
First two shots were touching and near center of lower target.
Then they started "walking" vertically:



Scope adjustments allowed the 402-gr Shock Hammer to hit near the Point Of Aim,
with the thought going forward being to use first two shots to judge a scope adjustment for the next 3 shots



Buffalo Bore claimed 2250 fps for their load with the Barnes 400-gr TSX in a 22"-barreled factory M70, .458 WM.
Daisy's 24" Ruger barrel made it do 2336 fps MV for an average of 10 shot.
First 5 shots of the TSX after the Hammer bullets:



Last 5 shots of the day fired after 39 preceding, and no scope adjustment for this one:

The rest of the bullets:

Note, according to QuickLOAD:

If the 400-gr TSX (BOL 1.390") is loaded with 76.0 grains of AA-2230 at 3.310" COL, then LR = 108.6%, consistent with Buffalo Bore load.

The 400-gr TSX with 80.0 grains of AA-2230 has 3.540" COL , then LR = 100.7%, consistent with my handload.

All handloads above used 80.0 grains of AA-2230.
402-gr Shock Hammer: 100.7% LR
400-gr Woodleigh: 96.2% LR
400-gr Barnes Buster: 95.3% LR
407-gr Hardcast: 99.4%

Fastest load was the hardcast and had the shortest COL at 3.260", 2477 fps 5-yard velocity, not compressed, audible powder shake.
BHN 25 of water-dropped Magnum Shot plus 50:50 solder, I bet it is malleable enough, not as brittle as the softer Linotype.
It has proven accurate at 2170 fps with AA-2495.
This maybe the most exciting discovery of the 400-grainer Shootoff.
A tight rifle would have told the accuracy story.

Great work and very interesting. Sir Ron, we salute you

Yes we do!

What is interesting about Ron's groups is that if they were fired open sight there would be a lot more back slapping, especially when the shooter is suffering from "Post 49 Syndrome" which is known to affect accuracy shooting.

With the shape of those groups I would be checking the foreend, changing the scope and/or re-shooting with a known load, and also taking a closer look at the hardness/firmness of the rifle forearm stand and if the forearm was held to reduce barrel lift. No pics of the rifle rest so am guessing here, but a rested forearm which is hand held offers best support and control of the big boomers although that No 1, with classic stock design is a pile driver in rearwards thrust as I recall.

Dear Sirs, John, Russ and Woods,

Buy a donkey for the flowers, much appreciated.

"With the shape of those groups I would be checking the foreend, changing the scope and/or re-shooting with a known load, and also taking a closer look at the hardness/firmness of the rifle forearm stand and if the forearm was held to reduce barrel lift. No pics of the rifle rest so am guessing here, but a rested forearm which is hand held offers best support and control of the big boomers although that No 1, with classic stock design is a pile driver in rearwards thrust as I recall."

Great advise from Sir Woods. I am doing all that after the WIPE-OUT cleaning in progress now, procrastinator I am with smokeless.

Daisy has always had a tendency to loosen her forearm, which is the only screw I have ever had a noticeable loosening of with each outing.
The forearm attachment will be thoroughly checked. It was bedded with J-B Weld.
The slotted head screw can be replaced with a hex head screw for a pocket tool: Tighten more frequently.

I always grip the forearm firmly and rest the foream and buttstock on sandbags,
and sit erect as possible, rifle high on the rests.
The slice of HD foam rubber squeezed snugly between my shoulder and the rifle butt before each shot prevents all discomfort at the bench.
What happens at the bench stays at the bench, no walking around wearing a sissy pad.

I need to get the buttpad off and check the buttstock screw.
I need to get the scope off and check the quarter rib attachment.
I check all ring screws before each outing and never see any appreciable loosening.
A previous Nikon SlugHunter scope on a bolt action lasted about 400 rounds before it got replaced by warranty.
Probably close to 400 rounds on this Nikon InLine scope now.
Nikon is out of the scope business now.
The scope will get checked.
Hopefully not neccesary to trash a scope after every 400 rounds on a .458 WM.
I have more Leupolds than anything else and they are still in business.