Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

I plead guilty as insinuated........
116gn of IMR 4064 or Varget or AR 2208 will get you to 2900fps with the perfectly adequate for anything that breathes, 400 grain bullet.

Look at it this way, if the world thinks that a 300 Magnum generating 2900fps with a 200 grain bullet is pretty hot stuff and a great medium to heavy game load then I would submit with qualification, that a 400 grain bullet such as the aforementioned Barnes X at like velocity would demonstrate adequacy to the extreme.

Sir Woods has kindly forwarded some nice JPEG-file evidence of the accuracy of the 460 Wby Mag with 500-grain Hornady bullets
as well as the old Barnes 400-gr X-Bullet.
Of course, the handloader behind the trigger of such a deer rifle has a lot to do with group size also.
He will have to comment on the rifle which I believe to have been a Weatherby factory Mark V, also known to be accurate in the 460 Weatherby chambering.

For starters, here is the factory target sent with my 1984-vintage Mk V Deluxe.
It was supposed to be for 3 shots at 100 yards but shows only two holes about 0.88" apart on centers of the holes,
supposedly done with 500-gr factory ammo that was claimed to have an MV of 2700 fps way back when.
I cannot tell which hole was supposed to have had 2 bullets pass through it:



Sir Woods' bet-winning load for suckers at the public range who have never seen a 460 Wby Mag:
115 grains of IMR-4350 and the old 500-gr RNSN Hornady:





This might show relative POI of a milder 400-gr X-Bullet load at 2730fps
versus the 550-gr Woodleigh RNSN at 2500 fps at 100 yards, same POA ?:



Scope removed and replaced after each shot with what load, scope, and mounts ?:



400-gr X-bullet, 5 shots at 100 yards, is it that 2900 fps load ?:



500-gr Hornady at 2445 fps, 4 holes or 5 at 100 yards ? 0.665" group:

The next three targets done with the sucker-bet-winning load, the Universal Accuracy Load in a 460 Weatherby,
all groups at 100 yards:



5 shots into less than a half inch, 500-grainers at ~2500 fps OH MY !:





Something different, 300-gr Hornady at 2541 fps, 5 shots into 0.710" at 100 yards, therapy for flinch prevention:



Here is the one I like best, if it is at 2900 fps, 400-gr Barnes X-Bullet, 5 shots into 0.677" at 100 yards:



Sir Woods sent that last one to Barnes "years ago," but it did not convince them to continue supplying that bullet to handloaders !

So the 460 Weatherby Magnum throat is not an accuracy impediment,
just not as handy with .461"-diameter cast bullets as the .458 Winchester Magnum,
but there are certainly no flies on it for .458"-diameter monometal copper:






Practical rifle aspects:
30-yard point-blank range advantage of the 460 Weatherby (2900 fps) over the .458 Winchester Magnum Plus (2600 fps): .458 WM+
40-yard point-blank range advantage of the 460 Weatherby (2900 fps) over the .458 Winchester Magnum (2500 fps): .458 WM SAAMI
with 400-gr GSC HV having BC = 0.372.
Zero for 2900 fps is 250 yards.
Zero for 2600 fps is 225 yards.
Zero for 2500 fps is 215 yards.
Muzzle-KE/ 300-yard KE:
7469 ft-lbs/ 4274 ft-lbs
6004 ft-lbs/ 3344 ft-lbs
5551 ft-lbs/ 3060 ft-lbs
respectively.
All are quite adequate for deer to 300 yards.

Less recoil, lighter rifle, greater magazine capacity with .458 Winchester Magnum: Better deer rifle.

But hey !
How about a .458 Winchester Magnum Weatherby Throated (460 Winchester Magnum) as a specialized rifle for monometal copper ?

Sir Ron, you guys are still getting it on! good deal, my 458 WM+ is like lunchmeat, "ALWAYS READY!" am now squaring a load work up with my 44-77 Sharps Bottleneck [near 461 Gibbs twin] to use this season, cast one hundred 480gr paper patch bullets this morning to go with the last paper patches Saint Bagwell ever cut, his last copper penny front sight will also guide those bullets home to the meat that will fill the freezers.

It's going to be a great season Gentlemen, let us not tarry, it's approaching fast!

Just to follow up on Ron's notes above, all groups shown were at 100 yards using a Weatherby Mark V rifle which was bedded by Mike McGuire, the OP.

There was a lot of talk about bedding compounds back in those days relating to shrinkage, but after close to 30 years, I never saw it, which is why I re-shot so many groups with known loads over those years. I also bedded a rifle back in 1993 using Devcon Steel as was the .460 and even now with nearly 3000 rounds down the barrel, it is still a very much under MOA rifle that continues to amaze me with consistency and utter reliability.

Mike was a huge mentor for me and with the exception of one stock, I bedded every bolt action rifle through my hands since, including many others totaling into the 3 figures with more than 50 bedding jobs during a single year within that period. It provided a lot of references and experience to look back on. When it comes to generating and maintaining accuracy, I am a big believer in Devcon and have used both the Steel and Aluminium compounds with equal results both on walnut and synthetic stocks.

As to the .458 caliber, It worked very well for both me and a mate who carried a BRNO Model 602 in .458 and I the .460, when we culled on over a million plus acre spread in the cape country on northern Queensland just before I immigrated to the US. The largest game hunted was brumbies and scrub bulls, both born wild and beyond feral in that remote country. The pigs we took were the most savage and aggressive I have ever seen, as there wasn't much in the way of natural fauna way up there and aggression shown when securing ownership over carcasses we provided was quite surprising. The largest tusks I took on that trip were a pair 7 1/2" long. Impressive considering the corresponding sharpeners were still in place on top. It too, was taken with a running shot as it ran across the bush track we were walking along. I was again carrying the .460 and 500gn Hornady loads I was still shooting off.

Now something needs to be said here........
I always cringe whenever I hear of or read any articles on the .460 because the writers simply do not know anything, have no familiarity with the cartridge, do not load it to potential for the tests and generally fail to provide anything in the way of valuable information to prospective buyers.

My determinations after using 17 powders and 11 bullets in the .460 is that the 400 grain Barnes X bullet is the most practical, accurate and suitable hunting bullet tested and including the .458 Winchester cartridge, is an unbelievable shame not to be available at this time. Nothing continues in manufacturing without sales. I get that. Promotion is not qualified with articulate verbiage and colorful pics, it is qualified by usage and reporting findings which has been incredibly lacking considering the .460 is older than most readers.

The 400 grain Barnes X is also a wonderful option for the .458 Winchester and I still have a few loaded for the right usage. I would be comfortable using that bullet for anything with teeth and claws regardless of weight and demeanor, When I lived in the Rockies, there were pine trees growing off to the side behind my range. Even though bench to trees was around 200 yards, those Barnes X 400 grainers loaded around 2450fps would penetrate trunks 18-24" thick. That impressed me. Best I learned on game was that it will take around 5 feet of muscle and bone to stop one. That too, impressed me.

Maybe a flood of emails to Barnes from all over the world requesting its reintroduction, this time as a TSX bullet would have enough impact to impress all of us?

As an Addendum, I just emailed Barnes requesting the re-release of the 400gn TSX as provided to Buffalo Bore Ammunition to the handloading public.
Their email is customerservicebarnesbullets.com

Good one, Sir Jerry. I will steal that line.
Squaring a BPCR away is always approved, especially the .44-77 SBN Creedmoor Darling and Buffalo Hunter
which, as you say, is so like the .461 Gibbs cartridges used in Sir Saint Metford's rifling,
and, in your case, paper-patched with Sir Saint Bagwell's handiwork.
That should Bagwell indeed.
We all know you like the Big Fifties too, and that is OK as target training for use of your .458 WM+.

In 1865-1866 the British NRA were having 1000, 1100, and 2000-yard muzzleloader contests, firing at a 24-ft X 12-ft target at 2000 yards.
That would look like a 14.4-in X 7.2-in target at 100 yards.
A scope-sighted .500-caliber rifle that weighed 15 pounds and fired 150 grains of black powder behind a 700-grain bullet
was fired by William Ellis Metford in 1865 and was the only rifle to hit the 2000-yard target.
He made a similar rifle for Sir Henry Halford in 1866.
Those two rifles were the only ones to score at 2000 yards in 1865 and1866 competitions.
THE TIMES OF LONDON on 15 June 1865 said:
"The weapon with which the prize was won, will, it is said, create some stir among those interested in small-bore and long-range shooting,
being on entirely new principles." (MUZZLEBLASTS, August 2021, pg. 12, by Fred Stutzenberger)

And then came the scope-sighted .458 WM+.
Practice with the 700-gr "Hellbender" loads in your Sharps shooters: 150-gr of BP or what ?

Sir Woods said:

Just to follow up on Ron's notes above, all groups shown were at 100 yards using a Weatherby Mark V rifle which was bedded by Mike McGuire, the OP.

A toast to Sir Mike's good health !

There was a lot of talk about bedding compounds back in those days relating to shrinkage, but after close to 30 years, I never saw it, which is why I re-shot so many groups with known loads over those years. I also bedded a rifle back in 1993 using Devcon Steel as was the .460 and even now with nearly 3000 rounds down the barrel, it is still a very much under MOA rifle that continues to amaze me with consistency and utter reliability.

Marine-Tex is preferred by my local smith.
My personal favorite is J-B Weld 8280 Original Steel Reinforced Epoxy Professional Size 10-oz. package: 2 tubes of 5-oz. each tube.

Mike was a huge mentor for me and with the exception of one stock, I bedded every bolt action rifle through my hands since, including many others totaling into the 3 figures with more than 50 bedding jobs during a single year within that period. It provided a lot of references and experience to look back on. When it comes to generating and maintaining accuracy, I am a big believer in Devcon and have used both the Steel and Aluminium compounds with equal results both on walnut and synthetic stocks.

My first "custom rifle" was a .375 WbyMag done by rechambering a Whitworth Mk X Mauser .375 H&H.
Willis Fowler in Anchorage , AK 1986-1987 was the gunsmith and said he was allergic to epoxy, so I bedded it myself in a Brown Precision fiberglass blank
using Acraglas from Brownells. It's been a learning experience ever since.

As to the .458 caliber, It worked very well for both me and a mate who carried a BRNO Model 602 in .458 and I the .460, when we culled on over a million plus acre spread in the cape country on northern Queensland just before I immigrated to the US.

Well, at least you had nearly 2 decades here before it went to hell, though the Aussies sure had some problems like the gun grab and etc.

The largest game hunted was brumbies and scrub bulls, both born wild and beyond feral in that remote country. The pigs we took were the most savage and aggressive I have ever seen, as there wasn't much in the way of natural fauna way up there and aggression shown when securing ownership over carcasses we provided was quite surprising. The largest tusks I took on that trip were a pair 7 1/2" long. Impressive considering the corresponding sharpeners were still in place on top. It too, was taken with a running shot as it ran across the bush track we were walking along. I was again carrying the .460 and 500gn Hornady loads I was still shooting off.

Rolled that piggy quite well, I am sure.

Now something needs to be said here........
I always cringe whenever I hear of or read any articles on the .460 because the writers simply do not know anything, have no familiarity with the cartridge, do not load it to potential for the tests and generally fail to provide anything in the way of valuable information to prospective buyers.

DITTO THE .458 WIN MAG !
More's the pity in that the .458 WIN MAG is 2 years older than the 460 WBY MAG and so much more widely USED AND ABUSED AND LIED ABOUT.

My determinations after using 17 powders and 11 bullets in the .460 is that the 400 grain Barnes X bullet is the most practical, accurate and suitable hunting bullet tested and including the .458 Winchester cartridge, is an unbelievable shame not to be available at this time. Nothing continues in manufacturing without sales. I get that. Promotion is not qualified with articulate verbiage and colorful pics, it is qualified by usage and reporting findings which has been incredibly lacking considering the .460 is older than most readers.

The level of ignorance amazes. In the case of the .458 WIN MAG it is more dishonesty and commercial jockeying to sell other rifles.

The 400 grain Barnes X is also a wonderful option for the .458 Winchester and I still have a few loaded for the right usage. I would be comfortable using that bullet for anything with teeth and claws regardless of weight and demeanor, When I lived in the Rockies, there were pine trees growing off to the side behind my range. Even though bench to trees was around 200 yards, those Barnes X 400 grainers loaded around 2450fps would penetrate trunks 18-24" thick. That impressed me. Best I learned on game was that it will take around 5 feet of muscle and bone to stop one. That too, impressed me.

This makes it obvious that a .458-400gr FN monometal solid of brass, bronze or copper would be adequate for blue whale if driven fast enough.
Even a brass FN expands at 2800 fps, so the 460 WBY MAG might be better if not pushed to 2900 fps with the solid.

Maybe a flood of emails to Barnes from all over the world requesting its reintroduction, this time as a TSX bullet would have enough impact to impress all of us?

I emailed and telephoned over a year ago.
Since then Remington Bankruptcy and sale of Barnes to Sierra may offer hope.
Will Barnes Bullets be made in Sedalia, MO or remain in Mona, UT ?
Buffalo Bore had an exclusive contract to receive the .458-400gr TSX. I got nowhere.
I was crying on the anchor baby's website at the time.
Maybe from here something more will happen.
Knights of the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood: Mount up for the campaign.

https://www.barnesbullets.com

https://www.barnesbullets.com/news/ ... May 21, 2020 is the last "News" there.

https://www.barnesbullets.com/contact/ ... At least their calendar is updated into 2022, and still in Mona, UT ?

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This would be better than a Barnes TSX:



Change diameters only except keep hollow point diameter at 3mm.
Lengths stay the same.
Volume increase by factor of 1.492 = copper weight increases to 403 grains.
If so, shave 3 grains of copper off the flat of the boat tail,
and it is same length as the GSC HV .458-400g, about 1.430" BOL instead of 1.440".
Shaped a lot like a GSC HV with PDR bands. Gotta be good.

I’ve had real good results so far from the 220 HH in my 35 Whelen. Seem like very easy Bullets to get along with.

OK ...

“PROVED ON SAFARI” 1964 WINCHESTER FIREARMS PROMO FILM, AFRICAN SAFARI & BIG GAME HUNT GUNS XD46164

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YczDKqKlQ78

David Ommanney, PH, "our man in Africa."
Ommanney rhymes with "hominy."

The first of the Big Five killed in Africa, with the "New Model 70" of 1964, was a cape buffalo.
Quite obviously it was with one of those new-fangled .458 Winchester Magnum rifles with 22" barrel.
Narration did not even mention the "old" .458 WM cartridge, despite mention of the newer .264 WM and .300 WM chamberings used.
The .458 WM did not need a sales pitch.
All in all a fine battery of rifles.

The line is yours Sir Ron; ] great history lesson on the rifles and what the ODG's did with them, always very interesting/informative, my biggest "Hellbender" 50-90 Sharps was with 777 grains of lead and 130gr Swiss FG, quiet enough, that rifle weighs 15 pounds too, hmmmmmm.

That will work as a trainer for the .458 WM+. If it does not kill you it will make you stronger.
By a God wink, I too have a .512"-777gr bullet, from an NEI Handtools mould, an FNGC.
It is meant to be used in a 1:20" twist McGowen .510-caliber barrel on a .500 Jeffery that I started about 20 years ago.
That is when I found a set of .500 Jeffery dies in a Shop in Rapid City, SD while working for the IHS at Pine Ridge Rez.
My local Gunsmith has been having health problems and has a backlog at The Gunshop & Spa for Wayward Rifles.
He also has my "Olde Fugly" .458 Lott molestation of a Whitworth .458 WM MkX Mauser, awaiting the M70-style safety I obtained from NECG.
There they sit, two rifles with all parts needed.

Two of the screwiest chamberings ever conceived by man are the CIP .500 Jeffery and SAAMI .458 Lott.
.500 Jeffery: Rebated rim, short neck, no throat ... at least my reamer has some PSFB throating, done years ago before my .458 WM-throating enlightenment.
.458 Lott: At least mine is Like Jack Built, a SAAMI .458 WM chamber reamed for 2.8" brass, with remnant .458 WM throat.
But, they are both good trainers for the .458 WM+.
The .500 Jeffery to remind how user friendly the .458 WM+ is.
The .458 Lott Like Jack Built to duplicate the .458 WM+ and remind how puny the SAAMI .458 Lott is.

Enjoyable video-thanks!

Emailed Barnes again yesterday !
Telephone called twice today, and got put on terminal hold first time, tried a different menu option and went to "leave a message" so I hung up.
It was no help last year when I waited out the telephone queue anyway.

I also emailed Hammer Bullets yesterday.
Got an overnight response today by email from Steve Davis, of Hammer Bullets.
He will even call you back immediately if he is on the phone to someone else when you call.
About the idea of a special order of a .458 Cal-400g Shock Hammer with a 3 mm hollow point he said:
"I think this is certainly doable."

SO IT IS TIME FOR ME TO BITE THE BULLET, THE HAMMER BULLET.

I will get it started and then it will be loaded on the website for future orders.
Will bring more info to the Square Table as it happens.

You will find no more precisely machined copper bullet than the Hammer Bullet.
This is from the guy that had GSC and CEB create monometal copper bullets of custom .395 caliber,
for my five .395-caliber wildcats after buying the tooling for Harry McGowen to produce barrels for my .395-caliber rifles.

Now I have wised up.
Sticking with .458-caliber rifles is a lot smarter.
Recovery of a .395-caliber bullet at a crime scene would make me the prime suspect.
Recovery of a .458-caliber bullet broadens the lineup.

.458-400g Shock Hammers will find many uses, from .45-70 Gov't. to 460 WbyMag.
I might even have to get another 460 WbyMag since 400-grainers work so well in that, according to Sir Woods.
Training with a 460 WbyMag will surely make one appreciate the .458 WinMag.

Meantime I need to try another 400-grainer shootoff (for accuracy) using a .458 WinMag rifle without a loose and bent screw,
to try the .458-400gr XTSX Bubba Bullet against all comers.
Barnes hammer-forms the 500-grainer out of copper wire,
then Bubba shortens them to 400-grainers using handtools.
That is a different kind of hammer bullet.

For .45-70 Gov't. to 460 Weatherby Magnum:



Coming soon.

Sir Ron,
I see Hammer Bullets has a .458 402 gr Shock Hammer bullet with a 1/4" (~6.4 mm) hollow point. I don't see a length though.

As close as I can measure tonight with a dial caliper and eyeball:
Barnes 458 500 gr TSX FB has a hollow point of about 3.7mm
Barnes 458 450 gr TSX FB has a hollow point of about 3.2mm

I was wondering what you saw as the terminal ballistics advantage (or other advantages) of the 3mm hollow point over the 1/4" Hammer bullets already offers. Shorter bullet for same weight? Or are there other differences?

Thanks!

Sir Hannay

Sir Hannay ,

As I previously bragged about that .458 Cal-402g Shock Hammer regarding precision machining:

First 10 bullets out of the first box:
weight average = 402.7 grains all within +/- 0.2 grains spread
length average (not counting the tiny parting pimple on base which is of no consequence) = 1.3295" all within a spread of +/- 0.0005"
HP diameter 0.249" to 0.250" and depth about 0.385".

The 402-gr Shock Hammer loaded to 3.450" COL is jammed into the rifling of the SAAMI .458 WinMag throat, solid contact, hard bolt closing.
It has a G1-BC estimated at 0.248.
It would be great in a no-throat, seated deep.
In a .458 Lott it would have to be seated to less than 3.450" COL. Maybe 3.340" COL would be good in a .458 Lott. Hilarious.

The .458 Cal-400g that I am proposing will have a higher BC and is capable of longer COL for 3.30" to 3.60" loadings for both the SAAMI .458 WM and the .458 WM+ "wildcattish."
In fact it will be a lot like the unobtainable 400-gr GSC HV which had a G1-BC of 0.372 at 2500 fps
but with the PDR drive bands that are slicker and that I like better for other reasons too, besides BC possibility.
Depth of the 3mm HP will be per expertise of Steve and Brian at Hammer Bullets, Made in the USA, Kalispell, Montana.
Some of the smaller-caliber Hammer Bullets have 1.5mm HP diameters.
3mm is good, on a 400-gr .458 I reckon.
Steve seems to think so too.