Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 35 Whelen with modern powder and bullets...?

Damn good stuff Big B, that hammer bullet has to have a better b.c. than the 200gr TTSX, at 2800 fps it'll pass the TTSX after a couple hundred yards, sorry to all those looking for the 200gr TTSX, hope i didnt buy them all last year ; ] i only use them in my little 358 Winchester Hawkeye.

Rex: I am not implying anything. I asked a simple question that could be answered with a yes or no answer. Thanks for pointing out that JWP used a 28" barrel.

No you were implying that the load was unsafe. I answered your question correctly and that wasn't good enough for. I told you exactly how I came by my load, "I used the Speer data". And you come back again with "di you have any pressure data" you shouldn't need to ask that if you're not implying

The new Nosler reloading manual #9 shows their highest 250 grain load as 2643 fps using 58 gr W748

Strangely their top load with the 358 Norma was only 2628 fps with IMR 4350

I would guess they put a little more time and effort into working with the Whelen as they show its case had a water capacity of 78 grains vrs the Whelen's 62.2

YEP, "If you really push the 358 Norma Mag hard, you can approach the loads you see here." If it is too good to be true, it's too good to be true. My pre-64 35 Whelen won't get close to these loads. The case sticks in the chamber. I suppose with a better extractor than the Pre-64 I could get more.

Just look at the Speer data

458Win,

The 358 Norma data goes all the way back to #4, from 1996, which was, I think, the 1st Nosler manual to have 35-250gr data. It's unchanged in any way except that #4 had RL12 data for 6 options rather than the same 5 options printed in later manuals. The 358 Norma data simply has not been reshot, only reprinted. Since somewhat the same powders seem to be optimal between 35 Whelen & 358 Norma, I've begun increasing the newest & bestest in the larger case, but $$, availability of components, & hot weather has put kind of a heavy brake on the project the last few months. PP2000MR ran out of case space in the Norma before pressure with 200s, but was showing promise with 225s. Will have to dig up notes to see about 250s, as not sure they were tested yet.

Edit... Just looked at the records & in a 22" 358 Norma, PP2000MR got to 85.5 gr @ 3200fps with the 200s case full no pressure sign & to 3150fps with 85 gr & 225 Sierras with a slight ejector mark so backed it off to 84 gr. @ 3120fps. With 250s IMR4451 did 2760fps @78 gr. Case full, but can add another gr or 2 to pass 2800fps I'm sure. Groups look promising with most right around an inch @ 100 yds. Will be trying the PP2000MR with 250s when I get around to it.

I have some PP Varmint on the way which hopefully will do better with the 200s in both Whelen & Norma, although I did get to 3000fps in the 22" Whelen with PP2000MR in some Lapua '06 brass necked up.

Phil,
I'm guessing you mean that Nosler probably has historically put more effort into the Whelen than the .358 Norma - I'd agree with that conclusion from what you quoted. But I don't think they worked either much recently.
Comparing the #9 manual to the #8, it looks as if they may have reshot their previous .35 Whelen loads, but did no new load development nor did they try any of the new powders that are now available. Every powder and every load, as well as the top-to-bottom rankings of the loads are identical, but some of the velocities shown for the same loads vary by a few FPS. The word was out on the superiority of PP 2000-MR and CFE223 in this cartridge, and I really wish they had tried those out with their bullets.
I'd say the same for RL-26 with 150gr in the .270Win - there's been a lot of buzz about what a game changer that is (like the powders above in the Whelen), but still nothing in Nosler #9. Would like to have seen more trials across the board with Superformance, StaBALL, and the Enduron series too. Maybe next time.
The above, and the fact that they dropped the .358 Win and the .284 Win completely from the new manual led me to actually be a pretty disappointed customer in the new book. I use it, and I'd rather have it than not, but I don't feel it was well done - most of the effort seems to have been into the Nosler proprietary cartridges, and that's understandable I guess.

Sorry for the rant ;o)
Rex

The data shows a top load of 64.1 grains of CFE223 behind their 250 grain bullet for 2664 FPS. I'm shooting 64 grains for 3745 FPS that's 20 FPS per inch of extra barrel that I have. 2664 + 80 = 2744 FPS

Thumbs up on your rant!

What many (or perhaps most) handloaders fail to take into account, in researching manuals, is the personnel behind the scenes who do the shooting and testing of loads. They may be relatively new (or old) to their job in interpreting what they see on the monitor, and must satisfy company (bullet or powder manufacturers) policy before it goes into a computer program that sometime later is pulled for printing. Differences in temperament type and experience often decide if a load is acceptable or not based not only on MV and psi, but it's overall stability under potential varying conditions of temperature and other variables such as components and commercial rifles they might be used in. Just like factory ammo -- .30-06 ammo must be "fit" for use in any rifle chambered in .30-06. Handloads in manuals must therefore be "fit" for any rifle they might find themselves in, despite multiple disclaimers and warnings published in all manuals.

So, in the end, it's the one behind the test setup who decides if a particular "load" could safely be used in most commercial rifles, and therefore published for public consumption. And, it's you or I who must decide if a particular load is safe through carefully reading "messages" sent to our eyes from our particular rifle(s)!

And, BTW, I was SAFELY getting 2997 fps from a 200gr Hornady SP in one of my .35 Whelens with a 22" barrel over a decade ago, but you'll not see the recipe here!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Spot on Bob! TRexF-16 agreed

I would like to point out that there was no SAAMI pressure standard for the .358 Norma Magnum when Nosler developed their data--and there still isn't, because the .358 Norma isn't listed in SAAMI's specifications for members. Thus there's no SAAMI "reference ammo," which members shoot to compare the results in their pressure barrel and system. As a result, Nosler was obviously (and understandably cautious) in their testing.

According to be laws of internal ballistics, the .358 Norma should be capable higher muzzle velocities than the .338 Winchester Magnum at the same pressure, with the same weight bullets. Yet Nosler's fasted 250-grain load for the .338 is listed at 2780 fps, which exceeds their maximum velocity listed for the .358 Norma by over 150 fps.

A better source for .358 Norma data might be Norma. Their data listed a maximum load for the 250-grain Nosler Partition as getting 2845 fps, which is more realistic.

Also, according to the same general laws of internal ballistics, the .35 Whelen should be able to get about 1.088 times as much velocity as the .30-06 with the same bullet weights, at the same pressure, due to the larger bore. Which is one of the factors I used when working up loads for 200- and 225-grains for the Whelen with Ramshot TAC.

Using Nosler's data for 200 and 220 grain bullets in the .30-06 (maximum velocities of 2690 and 2602 fps, respectively) I came up with max .35 Whelen velocities around 2900 fps with 200's and 2750 with 225s. And my loads at those velocities showed not the slightest indication of high pressure. In fact I could open the bolt of my .35 Whelen Remington 700 with my little finger.

All of this has been more-or-less confirmed by more recent data for the .35 Whelen, such as that published in the latest Speer manual.

Thanks. Heard those in a 35 Whelen will damn near penetrate to the core of the earth.

Just as a side note. I ran the 2000MR loads and the CFE223 loads for the 250 grain Speer out of my rifle and I was yielding on average 35-50 FPS more than published using a chrony at about 8 ft in front of the muzzle. My rifle is nothing special. It’s a Ruger M77 Hawkeye with a 23 1/2”
Shilen barrel 1:14” twist. Zero excessive pressure signs with those loads using Hornady or Nosler brass.

So then, the what is SAAMI pressure standard for the 35 Whelen? I sort of don't think it's a seat of the pants cartridge. I'm guessing the 35 Whelen SAAMI pressure maximum is 60K, but I'm having trouble verifying that information. Also, I'd think that it could be loaded to the same pressure as the 270.

Is there anyone on here from Nosler or Speer or other testing lab or has anyone contacted the testing labs to see what pressure they are loading too?

I believe that if one company's load data is faster than another's then they are not loading to the same pressure.

I am not sure if I am reading SAAMI correctly, but I think they list the Whelen as a 62K PSI MAP.

30-06 shows a 60K MAP.

270 Win shows a 65K MAP.

https://saami.org/technical-information/ansi-saami-standards/

Page 173 of this document says 60K psi is max. if I'm reading it correctly.

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

Page 32 of the SAAMI rifle specs lists the piezo transducer Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) as 62,000 PSI.

Has it always been 62K?

I don't see any reason for the SAAMI MAP to have changed--though when Remington introduced the .35 Whelen as a factory round in 1988, they probably used copper-crusher (CUP) ratings. For the .30-06 the CUP MAP is 50,000, and for the Whelen 52,000.