So I ran across the "Speer 250 at 2700" thread...which leads me to wonder what velocities are realistic/safe with the other .358" bullet weights if the Whelen is loaded to bolt gun pressures.

I've had trouble finding much "official" +P load data, what are y'all getting in the real world? Links to published data would be good too...

I'd like to see numbers for 180, 200, and 225 grain bullet weights... If you post chrono data, please also add the barrel length used.

I'm thinking I may have to "rescue" a Model 70 in .270 by having it rebored to 35 Whelen! ;-)

I have a 24" barreled 35 Whelen that was just that, a rusted bore pre-64 270 Winchester that JES done, I haven't got all my 2600 fps 250gr loads shot up yet, but when I do, I'm going to build a load with Alliant Power Pro 2000 powder for 2700 fps with 250gr Partitions.

What a damn hammer that will be.

It sounds like you're happy with JES' work?

I like the idea of having 250 grainers as an option, but I think I'll be good with either 200 or 225 for anything I'll be doing for a while. The 200 TTSX, 200 Accubond, 225 Accubond, and 225 Sierra all look pretty interesting!

The 180s might be fun for whitetails in the woods...

You might try Speer data for 220 gr bullets since they don’t make a 225 gr .358 bullet. I get a chronographed avg MV of 2,723 fps out of a 22” 1:16 twist barrel using less than a max listed charge of CFE 223 with 225 gr Partitions. Very accurate load and no signs of pressure in my rifle. All .270 Winchester’s should be rebored!

Yes Sir I do, I bought a crap load of MidwayUSA factory seconds that I'm sure are 250gr hornadys, after the rebore from JES, a big charge of RL-15 in new Hornady brass lit with CCI-250's sent them at max mag box length of 3.340 inch a bit over 2600 fps and three round groups well under an inch.

I like to have one load for all game per rifle, that way any gun I grab will easily take game hunted that day with ease, trajectory is math and easily repeated, a 250gr 35 cal bullet will kill small deer as easy as it will a 700lb bull elk at 300 yards.

I might add that Federal Premium 225 gr TBBC factory loads are never a bad option for hunting.

My pet load for the .35 Whelen is 60.4 gr. of R15, Remington brass,, Winchester WLR primer and the 225 gr. Barnes TSX. Velocity is 2710 FPS with sub MOA accuracy and puts elk down hard. Even the ones not dead one the first hit could not get up to try and get away. Rifle is a custom Mauser with 24" barrel, 1 in 14" twist. I have to admit that same load will lock up the bolt on my Remington M700 Classic. I also have a Ruger M77 Tanger but it has a headspacing problem so only use it for cast bullet shooting where the bullet if jammed into the rifling. I have 225 gr. Accubonds and Partitions but just haven't gotten around to trying them since the results with the TSX were so good. I believe I'd tackle anything in most of the world with that TSX load and not look back. I figure a load that will pass through an elk from exhaust pie to appetite should work quite well.
Paul B.

I took my 35 Whelen to Alaska for Caribou.
I knew there was a chance to be close to Brown Bear so I used 225 gr bullet at 2680 fps.
From a 22 inch barrel. Nosler Partition and IMR 4320.
Varget works just as well. My Remington Classic 700 seems to group 225 gr bullets the best.
This will be my last rifle.
whelennut

250@2700 whelen would be a absolute hammer!!

Back in the 80s JDJ told me that IMR 4320 was THE powder for the Whelen. I used it with 200 HSP for 2800 + in a 22" Rem 760 I had rechambered.

Looks like 4320 still ain't too shabby.


Jerry

I got 2750fps/250 partition from a 22" 1/16 twist Mod 700 classic, BUT it was with the 35 Whelen Ackley over 61gr R15 and a Fed 215M primer. I'm sure in a 24 inch standard Whelen and the right powder that 2700 "could be reached", no way to know w/o trying it. These newer powders are amazing. OTOH, I got 2550 with the 250X behind 53.5gr of the old AA2015br and a BR2 primer ( Rem cases fireformed in the WAI) It was just "awesome" to see how Plains Game reacted to being hit with that load. Not sure what a partition at 2700 could do that a 225 Barnes couldn't do at 2700-2800 better!? At any rate, any Whelen is a fine heavy game rifle, runs right on the heels of the 338 Win Mag.

I have near 3 decades of experience with the Whelen, with several dozen successful hunts, it has been a hammer, without fail, 2500fps. As of last year, my go to load is anear case full of PP2000MR under a 250 gr Partiton. While I did not feel a need for more velocity, the accuracy of the package could not be ignored. It just keeps getting better.
Overkill is under rated.

I have been a .35 Whelen loader for more than 25 years, with a 225 gr. Sierra Game King or Nosler Ballistic Tip IMR 4064 gives best accuracy in my Randall Redman rebored pre'64 M/70. With 200 gr. Hornady Interlok RN IMR 3031 gives best accuracy, I used this load to harvest
a KY whitetail last season and couldn't be happier with the performance, it will be my go to load from now on.

I should have added, that 200 H S P is also a HAMMER on WT. I've seen them knocked sideways upon impact.
One buck stiffened up like an ironing board (if anyone remembers what that is). He stood more erect, all 4 legs straight as boards and he took a couple stiff legged steps......TIPPED over sideways.

I've also SEEN deer have MORE visible reaction to being hit with magnums, esp 300 WM, than lesser cartridges including 270 W.


Jerry

With what you all are claiming with 35 Whelen I wonder what my 358 NM will do with the new pwdrs. as I have not got it going yet!! Cheers NC

You are the first guy I have heard of using PP 2000 MR, have you had a chance to run it over a chronograph yet? I would love to try some of the new powders with some 225's, have a great 200 gr load but could do some experimenting with the 225's to see what happens.

I had a 358 NM for a while too and it is a hammer, with newer powders it's got to still be a good 200 + fps faster than the Whelen!

I haven’t chrono’ed them yet but 200AB’s with 57gr of IMR-4985 and 210 match primers shot really well for me. I’m shooting them out of a 28’’ TC Pro Hunter so I’m thinking the velocity should be around 2750-2800fps.

Technology is great.... 👍

for sure, my first custom was a whelen 25 years ago, I've killed alotta critters with the chambering.... I'm a fan...

Good grief I just realized I had my first Whelen back almost 30 years ago when I was about 20 years old. It was a Remington 7600 that I wish I still had lol. Still remember those awesome looking 250 gr RN factory loads they had, I think they used the Hornady RN for those.

Ya tough to beat a whelen for most hunting conditions, especially in B.C.....

Yep it is my "big gun" now. Had a 375 Ruger for a while too and could see no difference in killing power.

I don't doubt it, I'd happily pack my whelen anywhere for any critter, and never feel like I needed "more"...

Use an appropriate bullet and you will never be disappointed.
Been a tough winter, and I've been lazy, so have not put any over the chronograph. Maybe when spring comes along. I don't seem to have all the curiosity I one had, the accuracy and clean burn being satisfying, but as I said, I'm getting pretty lazy.
I will note that I used up near 2# of the PP200MR getting "my" load developed and fine tuned and to establish confidence in repeatable reliability. Hope this makes sense.

When I first got my Whelen more than 25 yrs. ago I developed a load for it, lots of time at the reloading bench and at the range. The result of that load development found that 225 gr. bullets and IMR 4064 was the combination that my rifle liked best. Fast forward to last year, I had done a lot of reading and research and decided to do another round of load development and testing. I found that 225 gr. bullets and IMR 4064 were still the combination that produced the best accuracy. In the process I discovered an old Ken Waters Pet Load that consisted of Hornady 200 gr. RN over IMR 3031, this load produced three shot cloverleaf groups at 100 yds. consistently. This became my new whitetail hunting load, it proved to be an excellent performer producing a perfectly mushroomed bullet that retained 66% of its original weight. In my time with the Whelen I have never found a combination that would not shoot well, cast bullets, pistol bullets or jacketed bullets it shoots them all.

I've been loading for my Whelen for twenty years. Back when I first started hand loading, in the mid-90s, I shot up hundreds of $s worth of bullets and powder having a great time experimenting. After I shot out the second barrel of a rifle, I went to using handholds that gave me the best accuracy, decent velocity, and most importantly, good temperature stability. Most of my rifle hunting takes place in the late seasons and I quickly saw POI changes with my original Whelen favorite powder, Re 15. That was also about the time most loads for Re 15 suddenly decreased in all manuals. Brian Pierce convince me to try H4895 with my 250 grain Partitions and I was very pleased with the result. I haven't had any interest to get any better than my old school load.

My current process when starting handloading for a new to me rifle is to find a couple of top loads between a few manuals, load up a couple, shoot until I'm happy, and go hunting. My load development is now typically less than 20 bullets per rifle. Gives me lots of time to master the rifle from all field positions and to shoot better. Not to mention the time and cost saving! Back in the mid-90s, bullets were cheap, not so much now.

I shot several elk, both bulls and cows, using the Re 15 loads with the 250 grain Hornady SP. The first couple or so went down with no problem. Then the new lots of Hornady bullet in about 2006 were noticeably different in external construction with much less exposed lead at the tip. The next couple of elk shot with the new bullets took several shots to put down for good. Tracing the wound channels clearly indicated that the newer bullets were not expanding to any appreciable degree. I switched to the 250 grain Partition and everything works fine.

Enjoy.

I've used 250 gr. bullets for 90% of my hunts with a Whelen, Shot a bunch of elk, and a few moose and caribou with them. 2500 FPS is fast enough for me, and I get that speed with RL 15 and formerly used IMR4064. I really like the discontinued Speer Grand slams but have had very constant results even with the standard Speer and with Hornady interlocks.

I think we must ask ourselves how we are to achieve 338 WM ballistics (250 gr. bullet @ 2700 fps) with a cartridge based on a 30-06, which of course has a smaller capacity than the 338 WM. Answer: By loading the Whelen to excessive pressures. My suggestion is to keep it real with 250 gr. velocities no more than 2500 fps.

Back in the '90's an old gunsmith buddy and I built a 35 Whelen that was to be my elk rifle. He was a crotchety, whiskey drinking old bastard, but new how to make a rifle shoot. His forte' was building super accurate silhouette rifles, and many of his clients were wealthy shooters residing in Meh-hee-ko. I based my Whelen on a VZ24 action and he installed a 24" Douglas Premium barrel with a 1-12" twist. Loaded with Varget the rifle was/is extremely accurate. My first six or seven test loads consisted of Varget and 225 gr. Nosler Partitions, and the largest group was 1 1/4". I shot a nice 6x6 NM bull with that load. I switched to 225 gr. TSX's and things got even better-



While this load was certainly and exception, it was rare for any load with the TSX to group over 3/4". My old dad used my rifle to finish off a 6x6 he'd wounded with his 338-06. It was almost dark and the bull was ambling straight away probably 100 yds. or so distance. Dad hit him squarely in the tater hole/anus with a TSX, the bull took a few more steps and flopped over, dead. The bullet traveled from the anus to the front of the right shoulder, under the skin, where we found it when skinning the bull-





That's a 71 year old man hunting at 11,000+ ft.

A couple of seasons later I shot a bull with the same rifle and load at a lasered 360 yds. distance. I was shooting downhill and the bullet entered high in the right shoulder and travelled up into the neck where it exited. Another season or two another bull was shot at maybe 50 yds.

Dad has a 700 Classic in 35 Whelen. These rifles are amazingly light, but also beat the soup out of the shooter. But the light weight makes them handy for mountain hunting. I worked up a load for Dad with a 250 gr. Speer SP and stopped when I reached 2500 fps. I shot exactly three groups-



Dad carried the rifle and shot a bull at 44 yds. When I went to look for the bull who'd run at the shot, it looked like someone had a 5/8" garden hose squirting a steam of blood on the ground. The bullet all but disintegrated and made an enormous mess.

The entrance hole from the inside-






So there's my take on the Whelen- Varget or Re-15, take your pick, and a 225 gr. TSX.

35WN

...and a happy 74 year old man, still hunting at 11,000 ft.!



35WN

SALUTE to you at 74 and able to hunt in the Mtns ! !

Congrats.

Jerry

Hey great pictures much appreciated. Amazing penetration from that 225 gr TSX, I shot a moose with them at close range and was impressed.

I'll mention your comment on a 250 gr @ 2700 fps and that no one is likely to try with the classic 35 Whelen powders but it is possible now with brand new powders previously not available. In my lightweight rifle I know I sure don't want extra speed lol. 200-225's do pretty much everything I need these days. FYI a bullet that I really like as well that will perform just as good or better than the 250 gr Speer is the 200 gr TTSX, you might consider them for your dad's rifle.

While I don’t doubt some of the velocities quoted, most tested data would lead me to think that any 250 grain load velocity above 2,600 fps or so is venturing into over pressures. Just because there is no sticky bolt lift, flattened primers, etc. doesn’t mean high pressures do not exist. I think to exhibit classic mechanical overpressure signs the load is probably in excess of 70,000 psi. I don’t recall any published data for 250 gr bullets exceeding 2,600 for a 22” barrel. Nosler shows a few loads above that but with a 26” test barrel.

Again yes Bubba is capable of overloading anything. Do you really think Speer doesn't know what they are doing and are exceeding normal chamber pressures? That possibility would be next to zero in my opinion. They list Power Pro 2000 MR as reaching 2709 fps, CFE 223 reaching 2664 fps and Power Pro Varmint getting 2617 fps all from an unspecified barrel length which I assume is going to be 26" since that seems normal these days.

No one doubt's a new powder like RL 26 in the 270 or 280 Rem for example reaching a speeds lot higher safely than other powders available previously. It looks like they found a couple of great new powders that work very well in the Whelen and I bet similar sized rounds.

I worked up a load with CFE223 that gets 2,723 avg fps with a 225 gr Partition at less powder than Speer data lists as max for 220 gr. And that is from a 22” 1:16 barrel M700. When test barrel length is not listed, I have my doubts. Take 100 fps off their data and that is realistic for most rifles. Who has a 26” barrel .35 Whelen anyway? JB has a good chapter on the .35 Whelen in Gun Gack #1. Happy Trails

Just a FYI, Speer manual #15 says test barrel length of 24" with 1 in 16" twist. Power pro 2000-MR getting 2709 fps with their 250gr bullet.

Lee

I have some CFE and may do some load development with it but top loads using 3031 make my Mauser buck plenty and I get just under 2500 fps out of it's 19 inch barrel with the 250 gr. Speer or Hornady. I am using the same brass I formed from Federal 30-06 cases all 40 of them back in 1987. Maybe the load is hot but it is the max load from an early Speer manual and it shoots far better than expected. Recoil is such that I can feel it depress the recoil pad. I don't really need 2700 fps out of a 250 grain bullet myself.

Looks like some good times in the woods.

Congratulations!

The 35 W. Is one of those great rounds, that will always be great. (per me)

Polecat, thanks for that. I have not tried PP-2000-MR and probably won’t since I have several tubs of CFE223 around and it gives me the speed and accuracy I was looking for with a 225 gr Partition. Happy Trails

I get all the speed and accuracy I need for hunting whitetails with moderate loads of IMR 3031 and IMR 4064. Ya don't need to hot rod the Whelen in order for it to be effective in my experience.

Great pic! Hope I can say that someday...

I guess it would depend on what and where one was hunting. I only hunt elk anymore and I've had to take shots as far as 350 yards. The 225 gr. Barnes TSX does a right nice job at 2710 at the muzzle. I'll admit that might be a bit much for deer but I'll bet meat damage would be small, the bullet exiting and the deer layig down and saying, "You've killed me."

As a matter if fact, that 225 gr. TSX cost me on of the nicest Mule Deer bucks I've ever seen. I could have shot him easily enough but there were a bunch of does and smaller deer behind him. If I'd have taken the shot I'd have killed him and probably killed or wounded two or three more in the process. I never did get a deer that year.
Paul B.

I'm building an AI version on a 24" barreled commercial Maueser FN. Nosler and Hodgon both list Varget and 8208 as best group or best speed for most bullets, esp 225 and lighter.

A 225TTSX at 2750-2800+ would be all I could hope for or stand!
2600+ any load, with good accuracy, would be enough.

Thanks all for the various thoughts on the 35 Whelen and modern loads. One thing that's undoubtedly true about the Whelen is that it's one of the most versatile rounds in terms of available loads. Everything from cast pistol bullet plinking loads, to reduced recoil/power loads with light bullets, to "traditional" SAAMI loads on the lighter side, to the modern +P loads that sometimes exceed four thousand foot-pounds of energy are available.

This post is mainly about a few representative bullets I personally find interesting. There are several more that look good for +P applications but this is mainly to lay out a case for the Whelen as a general-purpose hunting round rather than dismissing it when ranges open up a bit. I did leave out the 250 gr. Partition because ballistically it's very similar to the Speer 250.

I should mention that I'd never run across the Hawk bullets before, and they look intriguing - if fairly expensive. The deal of the century has to be the Speer 250s at under $17 per 50. In the test data I found (the last table in the post) it's a standout, and is apparently well vetted in terms of retaining weight and expanding reliably. Speer even rates it as a "dangerous game" bullet.

All that said, the 265 grain Hawk spitzer looks like a potential star. I'd love to see some real world results from that one... One thing that could be better is that Hawk provides no BC values so I just made some up (heh)...if anyone knows of any based on real data, please speak up.

Despite the allure of the heavier bullets, once I have my shiny new Whelen in hand, I think I'll start with the 200 TTSX for +P development. It seems as though it'll do anything I need, perhaps unless I intentionally target dangerous game. Truthfully I'd feel adequately armed with that bullet even in brown bear territory (see test data below). Is anyone here running it at 2900 FPS or over out of a regular 35 Whelen?

The main point is really ballistic performance out to 400 yards. That's the important thing for the vast majority of hunters. If you regularly need to reach out beyond 400 yards for big game, the 35 Whelen isn't your best choice. The 500 and 600 yard data is included mainly for amusement purposes. All ballistic data was generated using the Ballistic app for iOS.

(Sidebar: BBCODE is supposed to support tables, but they don't seem to work here...could that please be fixed? I'm using the "code" tag instead to get a fixed size font, but it's a lot uglier and more painful to work with.)

35 Whelen Trajectories:


35 Whelen Energies:


I found some .358 bullet test data at https://www.marlinowners.com/forum/...-tests-focus-30-cal-190-hawk-35-rem.html, preserved here for posterity.

Test setup: One inch of "soaked magazines", 1/2" fiber board (to simulate "tough bone"), and then many inches of "soaked magazines". I added the columns for percent expansion and percent retained weight . Notes here are from the original post. Velocity in FPS, sizes in inches, weights in grains.

.358 bullet test data, mainly at 35 Remington velocities:

Note that this data didn't include any Nosler bullets, or the heavier Hawk bullets. I'd sure like to see similar tests run with full bore Whelen loads and a good selection of current bullets.

I have some takeaways from this:

• The 35 Whelen is a fine all-around big game cartridge as long as you don't mind some stout recoil - and even that is optional depending on how you load it.
• Some 35 Whelen +P loads are flat shooting enough to keep up with the 30-06 out to 400+ yards. That's certainly not how most folk think about the 35 Whelen.
• With suitable bullets loads can be developed that will do for any dangerous game that might fall victim to the 9.3x62 or other similar rounds.

What say the gun writers? <-- Test to see if anyone reads this far...haha.

(edited for a little better wording here and there...)

What is all this about Whelen +P loads? +P is a SAAMI standard for certain cartridges, and does not exist for the Whelen. Whelen loads are either full power, too hot, or something less.

Well SAAMI standard for the .35 Whelen is a bit on the puny side thanks to Remington screwing up once more. Those of us who do load the Whelen for top performance should be able to call them Plus P or whatever the hell else they want. If my 225 gr. TSX load at 2710 FPS MV isn't a plus P load, what else would I call it? It kills elk very dead, is safe in my rifle so I guess I'll just consider it a Plul P load.
Paul B.

If that's what makes you happy, sure. I would call it a full power load, same as what I use.

I prefer calling them '65k psi' loads. The potential to knock on the door of 2700fps with 250gr has been there as long as W760 has existed, and a modern rifle has worn a 24" barrel.
Cheers...
Con

2,840 fps with said bullet in my 22" Whelen. IMR-3031 - a couple grains over book max (57.5) I'd be curious what QuickLoad says about that one. I tried one of the Vunderpowders - CFE 223 - and could get anywhere near published velocities.

I tried CFE223 under 225's in an Improved; no bueno

The notion is, indeed, intriguing... but my shoulder doth protest.

FC

OT. I forgot to mention I used to own a Whelen in a Remington 760. It hit with authority but it went to a dealer at a gun show. I wanted the cash for something else. Don't even remember what! I have some 366s and some .358s and as we talked I have two projects for JES to 358 Win. Will let Whelennut know when it happens. But this thread and another makes me want to go up to the Petrov's 400 Whelen in an FN Mauser rebuild. I Better get the 358 Win.s done first. "Hi. My name is Rustyzipper and I'm a medium bore slut." …………….

Hi folks, long time lurker, first time poster.....

I just wanted to pipe up on this 35 Whelen thread - I've been playing with a new Hawkeye starting off with the 225 Sierra, and just wasn't impressed with the the "traditional" powders. Achieved so-so accuracy and velocity with the standards, so tried Alliant Varmit. Accuracy immediately improved to the ~1-1.25 range with velocities approaching 2700 in my 22" barrel. Looks like a keeper in my rifle, but I'm early in the development process. Just my .02 worth.

Great thread!

Welcome to the 'fire, KLD.

In my Improved model, I've found 225 SGKs over Re-15 (Re-12, too, if you have any; it's discontinued) to be extremely accurate.

With the 225gr. Sierra the powder that give the best accuracy in my rebored M/70 is IMR 4064.

About that...I've had a heck of a time finding the current SAAMI 35 Whelen pressure spec. Sorry it's taken so long to respond.

However, with some inspired searching this morning I hit pay dirt!

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

Right from the horses mouth! It lists a Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) of 52,000 CUP (more on that below). It also helpfully lists some representative velocities of:

So, given that SAAMI expects a 200 gr bullet to run at 2,660 FPS versus 2,900, and the 250 gr bullet to run at under 2,400 FPS instead of 2,700, it looks like the "hot" Whelen loads are well above SAAMI spec. I'd say "+P" is entirely apt for those hot loads, whether or not SAAMI is abdicating whatever responsibility it has for that term. It also seems to me the only saving grace for Whelen pump and autoloader owners is that they must generally be knowledgeable shooters, given some of the hot loads available.

Now back to that MAP pressure in CUP. What in the world is CUP doing in any current pressure specification? It's simply outdated. IMO the industry should bulk convert legacy data from CUP to PSI in a safe way, and exactly zero new anything should be published in CUP.

Here's a good link on CUP versus PSI:
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...the-difference-in-pressure-measurements/

As that article says, the CUP number doesn't correlate well with PSI for several well known cartridges. The .223 is listed as 52,000 CUP and 55,000 PSI. The .308 is listed as 52,000 CUP and 62,000 PSI. So what does 52,000 CUP mean for the 35 Whelen? Apparently under 60K PSI. Perhaps a Quickload owner could guesstimate pressure in PSI based on the SAAMI estimated velocities and a 24 inch barrel...?

The other thing that surprised me is the amount of load data published with no pressure data. Nosler, for instance, doesn't include pressure data. I guess given the decent interior ballistics software around today one could double check that way...

I hope it was interesting!

Now I am down to two rifles, a .270W and a 338WM. If I wanted to mess with another Whelen ( such an outstanding round!) I'd probably try a pump standard Whelen and set it up with a receiver sight for heavy snow days. As it is, I like loading my 338WM up and down for what I used the Whelen AI for.

WhelenNut - what knife is in the rib cage picture? It looks like a good one.

Some inaccuracies here and some good data. Since the OP requested NEW powders I'll stick to that.
I have worked extensively with PP 2000-MR and PP-Varmint in the 35 Whelen AI (which only gains maybe 50 fps over the standard at the same pressures).
My rifle is a commercial Husqvarna Mauser with a 23" barrel and a long throat such that the 3.4" magazine is the limiting factor, so I load everything to 3.375 and still jump over .100" to the lands.

SAMMI max for the Whelen is 62K PSI, 2K above its parent of the 30-06 and 3K below the .270 Win. Remington did not "screw up" the SAMMI spec, they just loaded their ammo below it to easily function in their pumps.

I am confident Speer and Sierra did not exceed the SAMMI spec of 62K PSI in their published data for the 250 HotCor and the 225 SGK (as well as Speer's 180 and 220, which I'll get to later)
I never ended up loading as much as Speer or Sierra did, because I got such excellent performance a bit under, but still what follows exceeds anything the Whelen could safely do with earlier powders. I take case head expansion (CHE) off all these loads to help verify the pressures.

250 Partition, 65 gr 2000-MR, CCI 200, 3.375 OAL. Shot 0.50 MOA, at 2650 fps. CHE was .0002" (.0005" is considered the border of getting warm by most who use CHE as a metric)

225 TSX, 70 gr 2000-MR, CCI 200, 3.375 OAL. Shot 1.0 MOA at 2800 fps. CHE was also .0002". The Sierra 225 SGK shot 0.8 MOA at the same speed with the same charge.

PP 2000-MR is too slow for 200 grain bullets in the Whelen. You just can't get enough in the case to reach its potential. I used the slightly faster PP Varmint for the 200 TTSX. There is no published Varmint data for the 200 (that I could find, but Speer has data for the 180 and the 220, which allows for an easy interpolation indicating a max of 67 gr Varmint for about 3000 fps in the standard Whelen. I needed an extra grain for the slightly increased case capacity of my AI.

200 TTSX, 68 gr PP Varmint, CCI 200, 3.375 OAL. Shot 0.75 MOA at 2975 fps. CHE on this was .0004", appropriate since I was closer to what should be a "max" than the first two loads listed above. I am confident the Varmint load does not exceed the 62K SAMMI max and estimate the other two are right about 60K.

Remember my rifle has a long throat and is the AI version, nevertheless what I wrote about is well below the published max for the standard Whelen for the 2000-MR loads and right about max for the Varmint.

Best of luck,
Rex

I settled on the 225gn Accubond in my Whelen over 58gn of Varget. Nosler data shows 60.5gn as max. But my Whelen is a Ruger Hawkeye in walnut with the thin red rubber pad. It's the same pad on a couple of my Roberts rifles. It works fine with Roberts recoil but it hurt a bit with the Whelen. I've since replaced the stock with an HS Precision with a much thicker pad but I haven't changed the load. I don't know if it will kill any better with two grains more powder. Hmmmm.

Yeah those two grains of powder will make all the difference! I know nowadays it is popular to say a 6.5 Creed will kill just as well and as fast as anything bigger but my experience seems to show the 35 Whelen has an edge even on the 30-06. The 250 grain bullets really seem to do the job and quickly. I went 35 Whelen over the 338-06 because at the time there were a lot of round nosed bullets to play with and I have to say they were a are effective. Have one box left of the Hornady 250 gr. RN's and some 225 gr. Woodleigh weldcores left and I better get to using them before I get to old to do so.

I know I'm a little late here but have some input. For 30 years I carried a 358 Norma Magnum most of the time except for fall brown bear when they were feet away as opposed to yards. My bro in-law took his brown bear with it and hounded me out of it,,yes I did OK $. About a week later I sent my 30 Gibbs to JES and he tranformed it to a 35 Gibbs. It also came back a tackdriver!!! The 20" Norma Mag was 2500fps with 280 Swift Av Frames and 2675 with 250's, the 24" Gibbs has bettered both of these and I guessing more is possible if I cared to,, my powders are RL-15 and H-4895.

If it's any consolation Waterrat, I'm allways late to the party.
I bought my M77RS Ruger 30 plus years a go in 35 Whelen. the dealer had 2 dozen of them he let me pick the wood I wanted,only looked 4 or as recall.I wanted good straight grain thru the wrist for strength and stability. He was selling new Remington factory 250 gr loads at $7 a box ,should have bought a case. I put a 2.5 x 8 Vari X lll on it and never had a problem. Long story short 56 gr 4320 gave me 2550 fps and good groups with the 225 NPT. 2 elk and some deer later the Whelen rep is on the money for me. That load works in my gun ,it is 1 grain over the max in the Nosler reloading guide but it works. Somewhere between Nosler #5 and Nosler # 6 the 300 fps increase max velocity with 225 gr bullets happened. Simply amazing.. Wasn't until the interval between Nosler#6 and Nosler# 7 that the top loads for 250 gr bullets went up 100-125 fps. Some barrel difference for sure as the test barrel for #5 & #6 was a 24" Lilja while they used a 26" Pac Nor for data in #7 & #8. Things change all the time my Whelen still is good and can allways rely on it to hold up it's end with a properly placed shot as well as more recoil than you really need. That Ruger don't weigh much and a joy to carry which a guy does a lot more than pull the trigger if you bought it to hunt. One other thing, just like Elmer Keith said " you can eat right up to the hole" I've found to be true it doesn't blow the hell out of the meat. Be awhile before I let go of mine.MB

Hard to say about the killing, but I can share my experience with the same bullet and Varget vs. 2000-MR

225 NAB, 60 gr Varget, CCI 200, 3.385 OAL. Shot 0.69" at 2706 fps
225 NAB, 69 gr 2000-MR, CCI 200, 3.385 OAL. Shot 0.68" at 2828 fps

This is in the same rifle I posted above, 35 WAI, 23" barrel, long throat, though both these loads are below published max for the basic Whelen.

Varget may be more temperature stable, I've yet to see much data on the stability of 2000-MR, and living in Tucson, it's hard to generate my own data on that subject.
I can say that when I changed out the thin hard pad on my rifle (which only weighs 7.6 pounds) to a Decelerator, it made a world of difference shooting from the bench. It was pretty brutal before and much more pleasant now.
Cheers,
Rex

"My old dad used my rifle to finish off a 6x6 he'd wounded with his 338-06. It was almost dark and the bull was ambling straight away probably 100 yds. or so distance. Dad hit him squarely in the tater hole/anus with a TSX, the bull took a few more steps and flopped over, dead. The bullet traveled from the anus to the front of the right shoulder, under the skin, where we found it when skinning the bull-"

I'm trying to figure out in what scenario a .338-06 is not suitable to finish a job but a Whelen is?

Maybe just bad luck with the .338-06? I think all the .338s in our camp were jinxed or whatever because now nobody hunts with one of any flavor. There were several unexplainable shots where elk were not recovered. Must have been bad karma?

It's gotta be. I use Speer 270s in my 9.3x62 and it's quite the hammer. The .35 Whelen with 250s going that fast has got to be a killer. I like it.

I have a half dozen friends here in Alaska that make gut piles every year with a .35 Whelen. They are mostly moose, caribou and occasionally bear hunters and most of the shots are one shot kills. Their bullet of choice is the 225 grain Accubond and they all load their own ammo. They are good hunters and most that hunt Alaska know the caribou normally offers a longer shot then moose do, but not always.

Last fall one of them took a very respectable caribou at about 450 yards with one shot. This same guy has a video on his phone where he is hitting the nose on the ram at the local range, the distance is 800 yards. He has a tricked out Rem. 700 with a Lilja barrel and a large Burris Eliminator scope. His longest shot on a caribou is about 800 yards and he has shot more caribou then any one I know, mainly because of his remote job and access to a herd with a liberal season and bag limit and an on sight freezer and being allowed to fly meat out when rotating off shift.

Any one that thinks the Whelen can not reach out and touch a critter past 400 yards needs to spend some time with my friends. I am a user and fan of the .338 Winny and 338-06, but I also believe the .35 bore is right there at the diameter that makes and impression on big game, more so then the 30-06 and possibly my beloved .338 bore.

The .35 Whelen is what made me desire and old style lever action rifle offering .35 Whelen ballistics. So I now have a .348 Ackley Improved being made up on a Mirkoru Win. Mod. 71. It and H4350 hopefully will push the 250 grain bonded Alaska Bullet Works bullets close to 2,500 fps mv.

The .35 Whelen is one of the best caliber choices one could make for Alaska's big game. At my age I will continue with my custom Mod. 70 "Classic Stainless .338, but if I was starting over and younger, it might be a .35 Whelen.

Precious Liberty
I use the Speer load of cfe223 for the 250grain Speer hotcore and get a chronoed 2,700 fps
With the 225 grain accubonds and noslers load of 60.5 grains of Varget I get a chronoed 2,800fps
With a 225 grain Woodleigh PPSP and 64 grains of cfe223 I get a chronoed 2,950fps
My rifle is a Stevens 200 rebarreled with a 25inch barrel 1 in 12 twist.
Cases Remington
Primer Remington standard large rifle
I have used CFE223 in temps from minus 4 to 40 degrees Celsius and have not had any problems with temperatures stability. Standard large rifle primers set the ball powder cfe223 off with out issues.
I have found CFE223 gives me the highest velocity of any powder available in Australia. It's a crying shame that it will no longer be imported into OZ, fortunately I laid in a good supply.
Bob Nelson

35 Whelen Nut.
The reason for the increased velocity ISN'T increased pressure. It was explained to me that the older powders have a parabolic pressure curve where as the newer powders like CFE223 and Hogdon superformance have a pressure curve that doesn't peak as hit but maintains the pressure over a longer period of time. This is what enables the newer powders to give a higher velocity at a similar or lower pressure.
If it wasn't safe I don't think powder companies would load it.
A 250 grain hornaday roundnose at 2,700fps puts a lot of hurt on an Oryx

My rifle must be a freak in the accuracy department as 5 different shooters using a variety of bullets ( 2x225gn accubonds, 2x225gn Woodleigh PPSP, 2x250 gn hornaday roundnose, 2x 250 gn hornaday spire points and 2x250gn Speer hotcores)) into a 1.2 inch group at 100 yards. My PH wanted to buy the rifle.

It's a plain Jane Stevens 200/ Savage 110 with a 25 inch MAB stainless barrel 1in 12 twist, rifle Basix trigger Leopold mounts and Zies terra scope.
The 225 grain accubonds and woodleigh projectiles at 2,800 to 2,950 fps give between 4,000 and 4,300 for of muzzle energy.
Yes these velocities seen high but with the newer powders available now they are SAFELY available.

If a 225 grain TSX @@2700 fps can be called a +P load what do I call a,225 grain woodleigh PPSP @29@2950 fps chronoed and developing 4,300+ fpe of muzzle energy. This is safely achieved in my standard Whelen
The Whelen is very underrated and as said Remington castrated it at birth giving it less than 50,000 psi. If'n the 25 ought six, 270 and 280 can't be loaded to 60,000 psi safely why can't the ought 6 and Whelen be give a set after balls as well. This can be Dane SAFELY with some of the newer powders.
Bob Nelson.

You're absolutely right Bob. SAAMI pressure limit for the .35 Whelen is 62K PSI.
Happily some of the latest loading manuals feature data that gets into that neighborhood, Speer and Sierra in particular. 250 gr at 2700 and 225 gr at 2900. That's some thump right there.

Cheers,
Rex

Precious Liberty
All that may be true and correct with the powders that were available at the time of testing by SAAMI BUT Duluth the advent of newer and better powders surely this is now not as current as it could be.

SAAMI lists the 200 grain bullet at 2,660 fps for max pressure loads.
If this is correct how do Hornaday get 2,900 fps for the same weights and still remain within the saami pressure constraints.

I don't think companies like Speer, Nosler, Barnes or Hornaday would list way over pressure loads to obtain the velocities they get. If'n they were dangerous they would have had their respective arses sued off by now.
I'm not saying saami is wrong just needs revision.
Yes trying to convert cup to psi is a minefield frought with danger. Choose one or the other not both.
Just my 2cents worth from a humble Australian reloader.
Bob Nelson

Start with 4350 and the 250's should find a good happy medium of velociy and accuracy.

35W does all that I ever asked of my Norma and then some.

HORNADAY?

I've had two Brown-Whelens both 23 in. barrels.Wore out the first barrel doing load development and have tried every load combination under the sun including the new wonder powders.Best velocity with 250 gr. Bullets was 2620 fps,this out a Lilja SS tube.
The Brown-Whelen is a Gibbs type improved version that theoretically should do better than a standard Whelen,mine obviously hasn't gotten the message.

Funny post, I would have quit at around 200 rounds is I couldn't find a load that would shoot in a Whelen. Mine shoots everything very well except the 200 gr.RN's made for the 35 Remington. Even those will put three under 2 inches every time. Wore out a barrel would have to been more than 3 thousand rounds!

Just to be specific sir - Have you tried Power Pro 2000-MR? I'm not sure which other powders are the "wonder powder" in the Whelen, but that one is.
I get 2650 with the 250 Partition in my 23" barreled 35 WAI almost two grains under Speer's published max for the 250 HotCor in the basic Whelen (which gave them 2700 FPS in the basic Whelen.)
And PP Varmint gets me 2975 FPS with the 200 TTSX. These are not hot-rodded, over pressure loads. The first one is actually very gentle on the brass (not so much on my shoulder though, mainly why I stopped at 2650 FPS!)
Cheers,
Rex

Got a long winded spiel so here it goes.
My affair with the .35BW dates back quite a few years,before factory .35 Whelen brass was made, had to use .30-06 brass neck up to about .40 cal. create false shoulder and fireform.First rifle was a commercial FN 98 that was originally a .270,screwed on a Brownells threade short chambered barrel in .35 cal. I don't remember if it was a 12 or 14 twist.This was a good combination and fed very well with no work to the rails,it has become my all-time favorite caliber.Have worked primarily with 250 gr. bullet but have shot 225's as well 275 and 300 gr. Hawks.Initially left the barrel at 26" but later cut it to 22",this lost about 100 fps velocity.I then went on an involved quest to get 2700fps with the 250 gr. bullets,as you'll see.
Powders tried were IMR 3031,4320,4064,4007,4451,4350.RL 12,15,16,17,19.VV 140,540,550,560.Hodgdon 380,4350,Varget,Superformance,BLC-2,414.BG4351.Norma 202,204.Winchester 748,760.AA 2520,Big Game. The newer powders that are really supposed to be the ticket such as 8208,100V,2000Mr were tried.All this in a maniacal effort to get to the magical 2700 fps 250 gr. bullet load.H4350 got to 2620fps but that has been tops.
My load development process consists of increasing one grain at a time till I get unmistakable high pressure indication back off 3 grains, then chronograph.If velocity is good then test for accurracy.I'm no big stickler for accuracy,if it shoots into an inch and a half good.
As you can see this barrel digested quite a few rounds and you must include fireform loads.I was always looking to simplify the fireform process and wound up trying a fast pistol powder with some kind of filler.This method seemed to work but actually resulted in a ringed chamber and made extraction difficult so this led to scrapping this barrel and going to plan B.
Next up was a push feed WIN. 70 in .243,not a big trick to remove the magazine spacer and rebarrel in .35 BW with a Lilja SS tube which was finished at 23" length,also believe this was a 12 twist.
Oddly enough,and I do mean oddly,only shot one big game animal with the first rifle and that was a Dall Sheep! Weird ha!
As a supposedly hairy chested hunter were you ever chided for not having a go at sheep hunting? I was pretty sure I wasn't a sheep hunter and set out to prove it.
Business obligations had interfered with a try at sheep so I contacted Rod Hardy in the Yukon and told him if he ever had an open warm fall to give me a call and one year he did.Met up with Rod in Whitehorse and off we went in the SuperCub to a remote spot that had sheep close by.Only thing is the rams had moved a couple mountains over but off we went.Blundered into a bunch of rams down low,looked them over and found a suitable ram and proceeded to shoot over him.Took another couple days but did manage to collect a nice ram.I used the 225 gr. Barnes X loaded to 2700 fps on that go around because grizzly was on the wanted list,didn't see one.
What a hell of an adventure it has all been and I'm sure I've left out quite a bit of stuff! Hope I haven't bored you too bad!

One thing id SAMMI pressures are M.A,P., Maximum Allowable Pressures which when you think about really doesn't mead squat. All that say is when a new run (lot) of ammo is run and tested, no pressure can be above the M.A.P., nothing more nothing less. I've run fresh Winchester 180 gr. Power Points over a chronograph that barely get past 2600 FPS. Advertised velocity is 2700 FPS. Just about all, if not all factory ammo is not loaded to reach advertised velocity. It's their fudge factor to make sure that don't go over M.A.P. About the only exception might be the introduction of a new gee whiz bang cartridge and when it takes hold velocity seems to drop off.
On calling a 700 FPS 225 gr. TSX load +p irritates you, the call those new powder load like the 2700 FPS 250 gr. loads +P+ and just enjoy the improvement.
Paul B.

Bore us?? Heck no! Love the hunting stories. And rifle stories. I built my .35 Whelen AI in about '92 or '93. The late John Pell barreled the Husqvarna commercial '98 for me and I did all the other work. It was a shooter from the start and I hot rodded it too much in my youth, but a tribute to the strong rifle it suffered no damage. Only primer I ever blew in over 30 years handloading was back then on that rifle. I'm totally over that nonsense these days but still love to find optimum powders and loads that give great velocities at moderate pressure.
Nowadays I can get better velocity than back then with loads that are not even breathing hard. Thus, I feel it my mission to help get you the velocity you're looking for, if possible.
Please check your records and tell us what charges you used with the 2000-MR and what velocities you got. (BTW, I used CCI 200 primers for all my 35 WAI 2000-MR loads and it "lit" just fine, despite some folks' advice to use magnum primers for heavy spherical powder loads.)
Speer's max for the 250 HotCor is 66.2 gr for 2709 FPS in the basic Whelen. 65 gr gave me 2650 and great accuracy in my 23" barreled WAI. and I quit there.
If you can get the water volume of a fired case of yours to the base of your desired 250 bullet, slipped in to your desired OAL, we'll do the math compared to my volume and get a WAG on what your MAX ought to be. Other than the extra volume you pick up from the Brown configuration, we won't get much more in the case 'cause its already compressed in the basic Whelen.
I'd say we can take this offline with just PM's but I bet some others are interested, based on the subject of this thread. PM me if you like.
I should have asked - what's your throat like. What would be the max OAL you can load based on touching the lands? How about the Mag length of your M-70? 3.4", or longer?

Cheers,
Rex

I read this thread a week or two ago so I went and picked up some PP Varmint and MR2000.

I could get the 200 TSX going about 2950 with a book max charge of Varmint from my 20" Whelen but accuracy was better between 2815-2850.

With the 250 Speer a max load of MR2000 got me 2629 with no obvious pressure signs and tested at 90+ degrees.

Shot the the 250 for accuracy this morning and it looks like upper end is where my rifle likes to be. Hoping to confirm accuracy tomorrow. If it works out accuracy wise a 250 speer at 2600+ from a 20" Whelen can do a lot of work from up close to quite a ways out. Pretty interesting and curbs my interest in adding a .358 Norma. FWIW my rifle is a paddle stock ruger and the 250 loaded hot is plenty snorty on the way back.

I bet it is.

Gnswizrd doesn't your latest load stretch the Whelen to 125 yards? Be Well, RZ.

Damn I’m gonna find some mr2000, 250’s would be a hammer

I’m looking for some myself.

I’ll be runnin Hornady 250 interlocks, whatcha thinkin bertz?

I don't think much would take and hold one. I have a literal pile of 250 PT's I picked up as 2nds years ago that shot like crazy out of my CDL at 2600 with RL15. I've had just as much luck with the 250 Speers as well. The Whelen doesn't need a Partition, but they handle stuff well and they were/are cheap from SPS.

#hurtlocker 😂😂

Oh for sure man. For awhile, that was the only rifle I wanted to hunt with. That 250 at 2600 pounded elk just as well as my 338's did and it was a little lighter rifle.

Ya mines noticeably lighter than my 338 as well, love it, great packin gun.
quick image upload

She’s a peach

That's a great picture Jud. Dig it. I have a Shrike I wanna get bedded to mine. The CDL is a nice enough wood stock, just too darned short for my monkey arms.



I have hunted it a bunch though.

Like button. It does suck having T-Rex arms!! Haha

I had one in 338 and snorty it was, recoil pad was one hard SOB! Would have kept it if it had been a 30-06.

MedRiver,
I never found a published load for the 200 TTSX (or any 200 grain bullet) with Varmint, so I interpolated between Speer's Varmint maxes for the 180 and the 220 to estimate what max would be for the 200, then worked up to confirm it with two separate bullets. I got about 2975 (in 23" barrel) which comports with your 2950 from the 20".
Would you please share the source of your book max for the 200 TTSX with Varmint - I'd like to see how close I got with my estimates.

Thanks,
Rex

Trex, 220 was 2975?

No Sir! My 225 TSX load was about 2850 FPS, and that was with 70 grains of PP 2000-MR. I never shot 220's in my rifle. The 2975 FPS was the velocity I got with the 200 TTSX in a 23" 35 Whelen AI with Varmint. Looks like MedRiver got 2950 FPS with the 200 TTSX and Varmint in his 20" barrel. I had calculated 67 grains as max for the 200 grain bullet with Varmint in the basic Whelen - I ended up needing 68/Varmint in the Ackely to get that 2975 FPS with the 200 TTSX (I had calculated around 3000 FPS in a 24" barrel so that was close enough for me).
Anxious to hear what the "book" charge was that gave MedRiver 2950 in his rifle.

Hope that clears it up. Those two powders do some wonderful things in the Whelen, but 2975 FPS with a 220 bullet would be (IMO) way over the top.

Cheers,
Rex

TRex, that 200 TTSX clipping along over 2900 is a powerful danged combo.

My "book" charge was a simple interpolation between their 180 and 220 grain data. I went up to 67 grains to hit 2947 with the TSX. From the brass it looked like I could keep going but figured I was getting pretty warm by then so just went to shoot for accuracy. 64 grains gave me about 2815 and the best accuracy.

I got 2970 with the 200 X ( and later TTSX) with 58gr H322 from a 22" 35 WAI, but according to QL I was probably pushing 72K or even more!

here is Barnes data for 200 and 225 grain ttsx bullets

https://www.barnesbullets.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/35WhelenWeb.pdf

Dammmmm... I chronographed some factory loaded 250 gr 358 Norma Mag at 2630fps out of a 22" barrel. They were rated at 2799 unspecified barrel length on the card that came in the box signed by Kerstin. Since the same powders seem to work in the Norma as the Whelen I'll betcha the Norma can be boosted as well. Will be trying MR2000 & CFE223 in both Whelen & Norma when the weather cools down a bit. Who needs an STA?

HA!! That is exactly the same way I got to my load! Great minds work alike, obviously! Here's a discussion on another forum where I posted my load work with 200 TTSX and Varmint:
My 200 TTSX Varmint load development
Cheers,
Rex
EDIT - when you go to that link you'll have to scroll through a bunch of yammering to find the posts of mine outlining the load development...

Hahaha. Great minds or two fools in the same ship. Hard to tell!

Well, I found an 8lb'er of PP2000 for sale so I may have to give it a shot!

I have my 7600 Whelen, M700 Whelen and the 9.3x62 I will give it a whirl in. So far, RL15 has been my go to, it'll be interesting to see how PP2000 does.

Wish I could find some more. Called the store I got it from and they are sold out. I messed up and dumped what MR2000 was in my Chargemaster into a jug of H4350! Still have a little in my original pound jug but could sure use some more.

Accuracy testing of my 66 grain load with the 250 speer was ho hum today. Looks like the average of (4) 3 shot groups is going to be 1.4 MOA with pretty even dispersion. Not great but certainly usable for what I intend to point it at.

Intersting reading this, I have been killing moose and caribou for over a decade, from 80 yds to 500 yds, using mr 2000 in the 9.3x62

It's not new. It is dense and you can fit a lot of it in a standard case. Though you may achieve a smidgen more velocity, it won't do a fkn thing more in the field over rl 15, or any similar burn rate powder.

Also, no standard medium bore rifle will need a ballistic tip, or a boat tail. Flat base 250 spitzers are my choice.

Heck, even 300 grain spitzers hit the moose and caribou out to 400 and 500 yds.

ttt

Just adding my .02$. I’ve ran and worked up Speers load for the 250 and PP 2000MR. I found iit accurate,safe and easy to load. I chrony the load and I was getting everything they claimed and a wee bit more out of my 23” Shilen barrel. I rounded the load down to the nearest grain and was averaging 2715 FPS. And getting groups averaging around 3/4” at 100 yards. Recoil was very civilized and nothing more than any other Whelen load.

I loaded 68 grains of Power Pro Varmint behind the 180 TTSX and recorded 3231 FPS out of my 28" barrel 1885 Highwall.

I’m not sure of the year I got my first 350 Rem Mag, but it was around 1969. The only jacketed loads I’ve used are 250 grain Interlock, partition and hot core. I’ve shot at paper with lighter bullets but just paper.
The most accurate powders are H4895, IMR4320 and 748, so far.
I stopped using 748 hunting as I found it unstable temperature wise.
I think the 350 to be close, very close to the Whelen. Sure it has a shorter neck, and a sharper shoulder, but still very close.
I finally got my hands on a 35 Whelen - a re-barreled pre-64. So far I’ve just been shooting it off-hand - practicing. It might go hunting this fall.
I’m sort of a heavy for the caliber guy, so for now I’ll be shooting 250 or 250+ grain bullets, primarily Interlocks. If Hornady stops making that bullet in interlock I’ll be switching to hot core or partition. I will not be pushing the envelope on pressure. Nothing like hot gases coming back to one’s face to help cure a person of that. Besides having the frustration of a empty case stick in a chamber as the 30 point buck is scampering over the hill top.
Some other powders I’ll be trying RE-15, TAC, and IMR4064 or IMR 4461.

My first 35 Whelan was a Mod 700 Classic bought in '95, 2nd hand. I had been reading Gary Sitton articles on the Ackley Imp. He liked short barrels and wanted 2600/250gr out of a 20" Mauser, so went with the AI. I forget his load, but I liked Ackley rounds ( had one previous to this in 257 Roberts AI.) I sent the rifle off to Gary Stiles for the rechamber job, had a local man put a Decelerator pad on it, added a Leupold 1.5x5 on it. I fireformed 100 new Remington 35 Whelan cases (I liked Boddington's moose kill with the Mod 700 Whelan too, so brass was available.) I also wanted the headstamp as I was going to South Africa in '96. I used a warm load of 4895 with the Speer 220 jammed into the lands. I fired those 100rds doing hunting position practice out to 100yds, 20 a week. Followed with 50rds from a scoped Marlin .22 Magnum, every week. I still have brass!
Barnes had their first Load Manual out, and I just used their load data. I wanted the 250X and I ended with 53.5gr of the old BR2015, Remington primers. It clocked from 2550 to 2600, shot very accurate. This was the factory 1/16 twist too! I killed zebra, red hartebeest, blue wildebeest, oryx, and kudu with it on that trip. Only caught 2 bullets, both lengthwise from the zebra and kudu.
Several years later, had another exact copy rifle , rechambered by local smith, had it cryoed, blueprinted, weatherproofed. Had a brake put on it ( after my left retina tore/repaired in early 2002) same scope. This time loaded the 200X over 58gr H322 (their book Max) scary accurate, clocked 2970fps. Took it in summer of 2002 to SA and made a 347yd heart/lung shot on a Black Wildebeest and a 250yd base of the neck shot on zebra. (
I had my left eye full of silicon oil to hold the retina in place so was a "blind in one eye" Preacher!) Both pass throughs. Wicked.
I later had my loads compared to QL and believed them to be "over 70K". Since I had my left eye healed and was still "legally blind in it, I retired the Wildcat. Yes, I could have loaded it down, but had other plans ( looney I tell you!) Before I retired it, I had loaded the 250PT to 2750 over R15 and a Fed 215 Mag primer. That's 358 Norma speed. It did show a "slightly flattened primer", and was QL guesstimate around 72-74K. Hot dog stuff! ha. I also loaded/used on a hog the 310 Woodleigh at 2415fps. Awesome round. Also in the 72K range.
I probably could have shot that rifle until I was 120, but I felt I was gambling needlessly with high pressure stuff.

I built my 23" 35 Whelen AI back in the early 90's and copied G. Sitton's loads also (AA2520), just like Jim. I was chasing 2600+ with 250's and ended up blowing the only primer I have ever done in 40 years of handloading pursuing that goal. I have no doubt I was flirting with the kind of pressures Jim referenced above.
Nowadays, with the new powders, I can shoot the 250 NPT at 2650'/sec with very mild pressure (Speer's max is 2700', but I quit over a grain below their max.) Can load those cases many many times. We've had great progress with powders for the Whelen. For some reason, their is a contingent of folks who seem really bothered that the Whelen is now capable of 150'/sec or more than it used to be. They imply that's not the performance its creators "intended." I never met Messrs. Howe or Whelen, but I'd bet a box of 250 Partitions they'd have been thrilled with an extra 150'/sec in their baby. Now I'm just rambling...

Cheers,
Rex

[q they'd have been thrilled with an extra 150'/sec in their baby.

I hear you Pard...after killing Plains Game with what was "essentially" 358 NM territory loads, I just "could not" make myself slow the Ol Boy down! ha My next 35 after I hung up the Whelan, was indeed a 358 NM! I got to shoot 10rds of Double Tap factory 180 TTSX out of it when it was finished ( brake and all). Not a week after, I got hit with a dump truck load of "Obamacare" caused Taxes! had to sell everything I could get my hands on, even the change under the couch cushions! ha Finally accumulated a few factory rifles since, but no more 35 cals. But I tend to gauge everything by how that old 35 WAI performed! I agree with the Old Timers that one does not "need" the extra speed, just hunt closer. But Im glad these new powders have come about...

I have an 1885 Highwall that I rebored to 35 Whelen so it has a 28" barrel. With 68 grains of Power Pro Varmint and 190 TTSX I chronographed 3231 FPS.

I ain't looking to slow it down

What I like about 35 Whelen threads is all the “quotes” (and parenthetical phrases) that come out about how the 35 would be their “big” gun used in the “woods” (or possibly bears). Posters go on to say that in the “real world” that’s all that’s needed (even if they go to “Africa” one day).
Not a “knock” on the posters (or the cartridge) just “my” observation, albeit probably biased.

I built a Whelen on a VZ24 action and loaded a 225 gr. TSX running just shy of 2700 fps. Longest shot just over 350 yds. I took three bulls with this load/rifle and my Pop took one. This is one of those bullets that incredibly, travelled the full length of one of those NM bulls.



My Pop has a 700 Classic in Whelen, and the last couple of years of his elk hunting he carried it because with the old 4X Leupold it wears, it is such a light rifle. Load development was easy, and I worked up a load with a 250 gr. Speer SP that ran it just over 2500 fps and grouped very well-



As luck would have it, he got a shot at a rag-head bull at exactly 44 yds. The 250 gr. Speer acted sort of like a varmint bullet at that range. The short blood trail looked like it came out of a 5/8" garden hose. The shot was slightly quartering away, entering behind the right shoulder and angling forward into the left shoulder. Talk about a mess....

Entrance-

Off shoulder-

Remains of the bullet-

Shoulda used a Partition, but had these on hand.

Memories....and his last bull at age 75-

Great pictures WhelenNut. The old boy just gets it done.

Your father looks like Ed Bruce with the shade in his face. What a cool picture.

Thanks. He got told that a lot back in the late '70's/early '80's.

I always loved Ed's music.

Yep. We hunted at just under 11,000', and the last hunt we went on he was 77 years old. He'd ride "Sugar" his big mare mule most of the way, then tie her to a tree and walk a ways to hunt. If I live that long, I hope I'm that tough.

Precious Liberty
I looked at Hawk bullets, I bought a couple boxes. I did quite a bit of load work in my 350 RM. I think my best group might have been 6” at 100 meters.

+P in a Whelen is sorta like putting a turbo charger in a F-15. I hunted for quite awhile with a ..358 Win and surely did not need a bigger hammer than had with standard loads. Good caliber and cartridges both are, don't spend a lot of time over thinking the matter.

I always used the old standby 4064 under plain C&C 250s in my Whelen, roundnoses most of the time at that. I always had great performance on everything from little black bears up to moose and grizzlies.

I’m going back to Alaska to try to scratch a big bull moose off my bucket list next September and drug out the old Whelen over the weekend. I may have to try out one of the newer combos and maybe even a pointed bullet since I’m low on 4064. Or not, who knows. Either way I know from experience that a 250 at 2500 will do the deed when called upon.

H-4895 will get you there easily with 250 Speers or Noslers and give you temperature stability as well. 225 Accubonds have also done really well in two of my Whelens.

Speer data with CFE223 shows a top load of 64.1 grains. I'm loading 64 grains with an extremely low extreme spread and chronographing 2745 FPS from my Highwall's 28" barrel with 1/2 MOA accuracy at 200 yards

Under what bullet JWP?

Dam I left that out 250 grain Hornaday SP Interlock

That’s interesting, I have both CFE and a big stack of Hornady 250s. The Hornady 250rn is the most accurate bullet I’ve ever tried in my rifle. Never used it on game but I can change that pretty easily.

I think if you loaded the 358 Norma mag right up there you could equal some of these mentioned.

Tried some PP2000 in mine, impressive velocity! My go to load used to be Varget and 225gr TSX at 2700fps. PP2000 gives me 2800-2860 fps. Got some tweaking to do but that will be my moose load for this fall.

I'm late to the thread, but interesting info. So what MV can I expect from my 22" barrelled whelen using 225 barnes and 59 1/2 gr. Varget? thank you

Excellent load

Well i'm locked on hard to that hind tit with my little 358 Winchester and 200gr TTSX's at 2704 fps, cleaned the rifle and bore today, fired a couple through the chrono getting ready for bad weather hunting this season.

The big 35 Whelen is in the rack getting it's bore soaked with Wipeout.

My Whelen has a 22” custom barrel and is usually faster then data says it should but 58gr of Varget gives me +/- 2675 fps. Hope this helps.

Man, some awesome loads here.

I went to load up a pile of 200 TTSX's last night and I was duped thinking I had a couple boxes.. Turns out they were 180 TTSX's for my 350 Rem Mag..

The search is on..

Very much so. Beauty about the Whelen from what my experience has been is that it shoots and takes game very effectively from mice to moose with soft loaded factory ammunition. Prudent loading only makes things easier to hit. I’ve ran green box Remington 200 grain core lokt that were darn accurate and will put the smack down on game. I’ve loaded it up and down with RL15, CFE223 and AA2000MR. Top to bottom it’s accurate. Even the worst groups were huntable loads. A 250 grain plodding along at 2400 FPS or less can easily take big game out as far as I need to shoot.

Which Barnes weight is closest to a standard C&C 250 grain as far as overall length and bearing surface? I have a bunch of 250’s (Speer and Hornady) but just curious in case I “had to” some day run a non tox.

225 TSX

Still need to run 64.0 gr CFE-223 + 250 NPT over the chrono.

With 64 grain, the 250 Interlock and a 28" barrel on my Highwall I chronographed 2745 FPS

JWP Any pressure data to go with the 64 grain load? Thanks

Anyone running hammer bullets? It is readily available and seems like the 220 hammer hunter would be a great choice, I don't think I can stabilize the 254, just to long.

I used the Speer data to work up my load

Ever notice how the “top” loads vary so much on the 35 Whelen?
Two places I first look have top loads six grains apart and with the same velocity.
I’m thinking that I’ll probably look at 350 Rem Mag loads and work with those figures. Besides I have a long relationship with the 350.

They vary for a number of reasons:

1 - some haven't done fresh testing using improved powders.

2 - they continue to publish old data that satisfies traditional thinking.

3 - it costs a lot of dollars to produce an entirely new manual. Hornady still publishes data that goes all the way back to the 1980's! If anyone should bring loading data for the .35 Whelen up to date, it should have been Hornady with their constant introduction of "new" cartridges as well as ancient!

4 - as some here have said, the .35 Whelen will get the job done on most things (especially deer) at 2400 fps from a 250gr at most actual hunting ranges, being satisfied with that and willingly blind to the fact that 200 - 300 fps more from a 250gr makes it easily the equivalent of a .338 Win Mag with less powder, weight and recoil!

See my recent blogs on the issue of the benefits of expansion ratio.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I have a couple boxes of 220's I should try out.. I can't find my 200 TTSX's anywhere, so it might be a good opportunity to run them.

JWP: The Speer loading data has no pressure data shown for the 250 grain bullet in 35 Whelen. I assume your answer is no?

Most load data doesn't list pressure data, so what is your point?

After nine loadings on the same case no loose primer pockets

Bobmn,
It sounds like you are implying that Speer may have either failed to pressure test their most recently developed data (for which there is no excuse given the proliferation of much improved pressure testing equipment these days), or knowingly published data that exceed SAAMI specs.
I have done extensive testing of the Speer 35 Whelen PP-2000-MR data, documented on another site, and concur with jwp475 - the data are legit, pressure is a non-issue, and cases last forever.
I will grant you that I have not had my loads in my rifle pressure-tested. So you can "assume my answer is 'no'" too. But I do trust recently developed data published by legitimate American firms in this lawsuit-riddled era.
I noticed here and on another site that a lot of folks miss or gloss over the fact that the numbers jwp475 have posted are for a 28" barrel. That does get the speeds up to some pretty impressive numbers. But my 23" rifle comes in right at Speer's numbers. They are legit and safe.

Respectfully,
Rex

I’m writing about identical powder and bullet, granted different barrel.
But the extra 5 grains of powder with one and both seem to be listed as maximum - with the same velocity. Further they are two trusted sources.

Very well summarized! Thanks
Rex

Spot on, and very well stated

I’m writing about two trusted sources with their top loads 5 grains apart. Same velocity. Same powder. Same bullet.

Different powder lots? Different brass than tested? A lot of Lapua 30-06 brass I have locked the bolt with a 3 gr (5%) charge reduction of a trouble free warm not max load wth PPU brass. All other components the exact same.

Here’s my first try with the 220 Hammers and PP2000. I settled back on 68 grains but so far it isn’t too bad. Recoil gets pretty lively though.

That load looks like real hammer LOL

Looks pretty solid, I think I will get a couple boxes and give it a shot. I cannot find the 200ttsx anywhere.

It makes me nuts, since I have a great load with the 200 TTSX at 2900 I would be completely happy with using. I am sure once I get the Hammers sorted out the TTSX's will be available everywhere.

Damn good stuff Big B, that hammer bullet has to have a better b.c. than the 200gr TTSX, at 2800 fps it'll pass the TTSX after a couple hundred yards, sorry to all those looking for the 200gr TTSX, hope i didnt buy them all last year ; ] i only use them in my little 358 Winchester Hawkeye.

Rex: I am not implying anything. I asked a simple question that could be answered with a yes or no answer. Thanks for pointing out that JWP used a 28" barrel.

No you were implying that the load was unsafe. I answered your question correctly and that wasn't good enough for. I told you exactly how I came by my load, "I used the Speer data". And you come back again with "di you have any pressure data" you shouldn't need to ask that if you're not implying

The new Nosler reloading manual #9 shows their highest 250 grain load as 2643 fps using 58 gr W748

Strangely their top load with the 358 Norma was only 2628 fps with IMR 4350

I would guess they put a little more time and effort into working with the Whelen as they show its case had a water capacity of 78 grains vrs the Whelen's 62.2

YEP, "If you really push the 358 Norma Mag hard, you can approach the loads you see here." If it is too good to be true, it's too good to be true. My pre-64 35 Whelen won't get close to these loads. The case sticks in the chamber. I suppose with a better extractor than the Pre-64 I could get more.

Just look at the Speer data

458Win,

The 358 Norma data goes all the way back to #4, from 1996, which was, I think, the 1st Nosler manual to have 35-250gr data. It's unchanged in any way except that #4 had RL12 data for 6 options rather than the same 5 options printed in later manuals. The 358 Norma data simply has not been reshot, only reprinted. Since somewhat the same powders seem to be optimal between 35 Whelen & 358 Norma, I've begun increasing the newest & bestest in the larger case, but $$, availability of components, & hot weather has put kind of a heavy brake on the project the last few months. PP2000MR ran out of case space in the Norma before pressure with 200s, but was showing promise with 225s. Will have to dig up notes to see about 250s, as not sure they were tested yet.

Edit... Just looked at the records & in a 22" 358 Norma, PP2000MR got to 85.5 gr @ 3200fps with the 200s case full no pressure sign & to 3150fps with 85 gr & 225 Sierras with a slight ejector mark so backed it off to 84 gr. @ 3120fps. With 250s IMR4451 did 2760fps @78 gr. Case full, but can add another gr or 2 to pass 2800fps I'm sure. Groups look promising with most right around an inch @ 100 yds. Will be trying the PP2000MR with 250s when I get around to it.

I have some PP Varmint on the way which hopefully will do better with the 200s in both Whelen & Norma, although I did get to 3000fps in the 22" Whelen with PP2000MR in some Lapua '06 brass necked up.

Phil,
I'm guessing you mean that Nosler probably has historically put more effort into the Whelen than the .358 Norma - I'd agree with that conclusion from what you quoted. But I don't think they worked either much recently.
Comparing the #9 manual to the #8, it looks as if they may have reshot their previous .35 Whelen loads, but did no new load development nor did they try any of the new powders that are now available. Every powder and every load, as well as the top-to-bottom rankings of the loads are identical, but some of the velocities shown for the same loads vary by a few FPS. The word was out on the superiority of PP 2000-MR and CFE223 in this cartridge, and I really wish they had tried those out with their bullets.
I'd say the same for RL-26 with 150gr in the .270Win - there's been a lot of buzz about what a game changer that is (like the powders above in the Whelen), but still nothing in Nosler #9. Would like to have seen more trials across the board with Superformance, StaBALL, and the Enduron series too. Maybe next time.
The above, and the fact that they dropped the .358 Win and the .284 Win completely from the new manual led me to actually be a pretty disappointed customer in the new book. I use it, and I'd rather have it than not, but I don't feel it was well done - most of the effort seems to have been into the Nosler proprietary cartridges, and that's understandable I guess.

Sorry for the rant ;o)
Rex

The data shows a top load of 64.1 grains of CFE223 behind their 250 grain bullet for 2664 FPS. I'm shooting 64 grains for 3745 FPS that's 20 FPS per inch of extra barrel that I have. 2664 + 80 = 2744 FPS

Thumbs up on your rant!

What many (or perhaps most) handloaders fail to take into account, in researching manuals, is the personnel behind the scenes who do the shooting and testing of loads. They may be relatively new (or old) to their job in interpreting what they see on the monitor, and must satisfy company (bullet or powder manufacturers) policy before it goes into a computer program that sometime later is pulled for printing. Differences in temperament type and experience often decide if a load is acceptable or not based not only on MV and psi, but it's overall stability under potential varying conditions of temperature and other variables such as components and commercial rifles they might be used in. Just like factory ammo -- .30-06 ammo must be "fit" for use in any rifle chambered in .30-06. Handloads in manuals must therefore be "fit" for any rifle they might find themselves in, despite multiple disclaimers and warnings published in all manuals.

So, in the end, it's the one behind the test setup who decides if a particular "load" could safely be used in most commercial rifles, and therefore published for public consumption. And, it's you or I who must decide if a particular load is safe through carefully reading "messages" sent to our eyes from our particular rifle(s)!

And, BTW, I was SAFELY getting 2997 fps from a 200gr Hornady SP in one of my .35 Whelens with a 22" barrel over a decade ago, but you'll not see the recipe here!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Spot on Bob! TRexF-16 agreed

I would like to point out that there was no SAAMI pressure standard for the .358 Norma Magnum when Nosler developed their data--and there still isn't, because the .358 Norma isn't listed in SAAMI's specifications for members. Thus there's no SAAMI "reference ammo," which members shoot to compare the results in their pressure barrel and system. As a result, Nosler was obviously (and understandably cautious) in their testing.

According to be laws of internal ballistics, the .358 Norma should be capable higher muzzle velocities than the .338 Winchester Magnum at the same pressure, with the same weight bullets. Yet Nosler's fasted 250-grain load for the .338 is listed at 2780 fps, which exceeds their maximum velocity listed for the .358 Norma by over 150 fps.

A better source for .358 Norma data might be Norma. Their data listed a maximum load for the 250-grain Nosler Partition as getting 2845 fps, which is more realistic.

Also, according to the same general laws of internal ballistics, the .35 Whelen should be able to get about 1.088 times as much velocity as the .30-06 with the same bullet weights, at the same pressure, due to the larger bore. Which is one of the factors I used when working up loads for 200- and 225-grains for the Whelen with Ramshot TAC.

Using Nosler's data for 200 and 220 grain bullets in the .30-06 (maximum velocities of 2690 and 2602 fps, respectively) I came up with max .35 Whelen velocities around 2900 fps with 200's and 2750 with 225s. And my loads at those velocities showed not the slightest indication of high pressure. In fact I could open the bolt of my .35 Whelen Remington 700 with my little finger.

All of this has been more-or-less confirmed by more recent data for the .35 Whelen, such as that published in the latest Speer manual.

Thanks. Heard those in a 35 Whelen will damn near penetrate to the core of the earth.

Just as a side note. I ran the 2000MR loads and the CFE223 loads for the 250 grain Speer out of my rifle and I was yielding on average 35-50 FPS more than published using a chrony at about 8 ft in front of the muzzle. My rifle is nothing special. It’s a Ruger M77 Hawkeye with a 23 1/2”
Shilen barrel 1:14” twist. Zero excessive pressure signs with those loads using Hornady or Nosler brass.

So then, the what is SAAMI pressure standard for the 35 Whelen? I sort of don't think it's a seat of the pants cartridge. I'm guessing the 35 Whelen SAAMI pressure maximum is 60K, but I'm having trouble verifying that information. Also, I'd think that it could be loaded to the same pressure as the 270.

Is there anyone on here from Nosler or Speer or other testing lab or has anyone contacted the testing labs to see what pressure they are loading too?

I believe that if one company's load data is faster than another's then they are not loading to the same pressure.

I am not sure if I am reading SAAMI correctly, but I think they list the Whelen as a 62K PSI MAP.

30-06 shows a 60K MAP.

270 Win shows a 65K MAP.

https://saami.org/technical-information/ansi-saami-standards/

Page 173 of this document says 60K psi is max. if I'm reading it correctly.

https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...CFR-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf

Page 32 of the SAAMI rifle specs lists the piezo transducer Maximum Average Pressure (MAP) as 62,000 PSI.

Has it always been 62K?

I don't see any reason for the SAAMI MAP to have changed--though when Remington introduced the .35 Whelen as a factory round in 1988, they probably used copper-crusher (CUP) ratings. For the .30-06 the CUP MAP is 50,000, and for the Whelen 52,000.

It’s funny but for a lot of years I always thought the Whelen was softly loaded but if the SAAMI specs are 62k there isn’t too much on the table.

My suspicion is that Remington probably did hold their factory Whelen loadings back a fair bit below 62K, just based on what they showed on chronographs when tested.
I think with the proliferation of good accurate pressure testing equipment these days, and the advent of some really great new powders in the Whelen, outfits like Speer and Sierra are sneaking up a lot closer to that 62K number in their published loads, and that's why their numbers appear so "outrageous" to folks long used to much milder published data and factory rounds.
And I reckon nobody would disagree with beretzs that once you're pushing 62K, there certainly isn't much left on the table.

Great cartridge, just keeps getting greater.

Cheers,
Rex

Yep, i think you’re spot on TRex. I’m curious how long it will take to get the others up to that point. Being a 35 fan for no other reason than rooting for the under dog, it would be nice to see the 356/358, 350 RM and 358 Norma get some love.

Good luck. From what I can remember, Remington's .35 Whelen sales went to about 20,000 rifles in the first couple years, then flattened out considerably.

Could cite other sales statistics, but the basic fact is that the original reason for the .35 Whelen (deeper penetration due to heavier, slower cup-and-core bullets) basically disappeared when the Nosler Partition appeared in 1948. Plus, the traditional 1-16 twist of .35 caliber rifles places a limit on bullet length. The standard 1-10 twist of .338 barrels and 1-14 twist of 9.3mm barrels allows a much wider range of bullets to work well.

My 35 Whelen is a 10 twist.

If that makes a vast difference in bullets up to the traditional 250-grain lead-core spitzers, would love to hear about it. Plus, almost all the .35 bullets over 250 grains are designed to stabilize in the traditional 1-16 twist--even the 280-grain A-Frame.

Plus, every load you've mentioned to me during our discussions has been lighter than 250 grains.

I understand this but I see no down side to more twist unless fragile jacketed bullet. I've experienced excellent accuracy from 180 grain TTSX to 250 grain Hornaday.

And I have experienced excellent accuracy with the same bullets in a 1-16 twist.

Have fooled with a lot of .35's with 1-16 twists using bullets up to 250 grains (or more), from the .358 Winchester to .358 Norma Magnum. All of them would shoot any "standard" .35 caliber bullet designed for the 1-16 twist well. Have also owned a .358 Shooting Times Alaskan with a 1-12 twist, which did equally well--but not better. So don't really see any advantage or disadvantage in a 1-10 twist.

Obviously you're a real rifle loony, and if a 1-10 twist makes you happier then why not?

But my major point (which I may not have stated plainly enough) is that there's zero advantage in choosing a .35 caliber "fast-twist" barrel when .338 and 9.3mm barrels have always featured rifling twists that make the same things possible, without dinking around.

But rifle loonies often like to dink around, for no reason other than they like it, whether there's any practical (or noticeable) difference not. Must confess that after decades of dinking around that I have started to become less enamored of dinking around, since have found relatively few real-world advantages. But whatever.

This makes sense. If so, then is there still a good case to be made for the 35 Whelen over a 30-06 with 180- or 200-grain Partitions?

Not looking to stir the pot, just genuinely curious and I'm working hard to talk myself into building my third one...


Okie John

The way I see it, if with the advancement of bullet technology a .30-06 with Partition or TSX is equals to a .35 Whelen then a .35 Whelen loaded with a Partition or a TSX is equals to...If it bumped up the .30-06 then it also bumped up the Whelen.

Have to respectfully disagree with Mule Deer here.

The Whelen is quite a bit more flexible than the 9.3 for most North American hunting. Mostly because there are no longer any bullets for the 9.3 that are both soft AND aerodynamic (aside from the discontinued 250gr ballistic tip).

In 9.3 you can get soft 232gr bullets OR you can get a slick 250 accubond but you can't get both in one bullet. The 9.3 accubond is a way tougher bullet than the .358 accubond.

The 250 9.3 accubond flies great but below 2000 fps it needs to run into a big tough animal to expand. That is what I have personally found. If someone has found differently--ie run it into smaller animals below 2000 fps and seen good expansion, I would love to hear it. I wanted those bullets to work on animals at longer ranges but they do not seem to expand at slower speeds.

From what I have personally seen the 225 .358 accubond is a very different animal even though it looks very similar to the 9.3 version. The 358 accubond expands (minimally but reliably) down to about 1700 fps--it is actually about the softest .358 bullet I have found (strangely enough it is softer than Sierra and Hornady round/flat noses and way way softer than the 225 SGK). The only 358 bullet I found that is softer are the Hawk bullets. And even at 1700 fps it tends to expand reasonably quickly; there is not much "neck" length to its wound channel even at those slower speeds. And even at higher speeds it seems to retain a good long shank.

Mule Deer has mentioned several times that Nosler understates the BC for the 225 Accubond and based on my come-ups, at least out to 750 yards, that bullet seems to have a G1 BC in the .460 to .470 area, out of my 1:12 twist, anyway.

To sum it up, the .358 225 accubond is a 500 yard bullet (at sea level) if you can get it started at 2700 fps. This is also about what the Nosler factory ammo is loaded to, at least out of three different rifles I have chronographed.

By comparison, if you load it to 2600 fps, the 250gr 9.3 accubond is a 300-350 yard bullet if you are expecting it to expand on non-dangerous game. But, at least out of my rifle, the factory 9.3 250 accubond ammo is way slower, 2400 fps from my 24" barrel, which makes it a 275 yard bullet. Again, if you want expansion without having to run the bullet into a grizzly or moose shoulder.

As far as I can tell the only downside to the 225 accubond is that it seems to be pretty jump-sensitive. But once you get it tuned, again at least from my 1:12 twist, it flies great. At 750 it was holding under 1/2 moa on a calm day. In terms of come-ups and wind and overall predictability to me it feels like shooting a 168gr Federal GMM load out of a 308.

If you need to launch 286gr+ bullets at animals or you're shooting shorter distances, the 9.3 is your huckleberry. But the Whelen is in another class in terms of flexibility. At least until someone comes out with a soft 9.3mm bullet that also flies well.

Trying to get a picture up of how these 225 accubonds fly but somewhat tech impaired.

[img]https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/16410914#Post16410914[/img]

Some claim that light bullets don't shoot accurately if spun too fast. I don't know how fast "to fast" is but my 35 Whelen shoots 180 TTSX 1/2 MOA or under. Also some claim faster twist aids expansion, we shall see

I've had a lot of fun so far with my 35 Whelen.
I've owned 338's since the 80's including 338 RUM and Lapua. Still have 338 Win and 338 Lapua. 9.3 has never interested me. A good friend is a 9.3 man but I just never acquired an interest.

Of course the Whelen is larger in diameter. If the Whelen isn't needed then why is the 338 needed?

I’ve always thought that 9.3’s were cool but never jumped on one. I would definitely do a 9.3x62 in a nice CZ with wood furniture. I like the medium bores and especially the ones that aren’t ridiculously heavy on the recoil. In other works, I don’t see myself looking for a 378;Weatherby anytime soon. As far as the Whelen, I’m really happy and impressed with its performance on what I hunt. I’ve shot plenty of deer and black bear with’06s and I’ve loaded them rather stoutly. The loads I’ve used in my Whelen, primarily 250’s, drop game like I have never seen from a 30-06. The guys I hunt bear with have been thoroughly impressed with the way it dumps bear. They’ve seen a few shot and I’ll take their word and opinion as gospel. Nothing wrong with the old ‘06 or anything else but the Whelen hits noticeably harder on game.

Since I have other 35’s (35 Rem to 350 RM’s & 35 Whelen & thinking about a Norma) and other 375’s (375 Win to 375 H&H AI) and because I’m likely too old to go to Africa, I’ve come to the conclusion that a 35 Whelen and a 375 Whelen AI is as good for me or better than a 9.3x62. Besides if I were lucky enough to go and I could afford shooting a cape, I think my bigger 375 would work well enough with appropriate bullets.

If I were younger & able to go on safari I think the 9.3x62 to be a worthy cartridge that I’d want due to several reasons. Mainly the wildcat 375 Whelen AI ammo would not be available there. The 35 Whelen likely not good cape medicine and I suspect ammo would not be as available there either. And if didn’t have that bigger 375…

The other issue for me is I have an investment in molds etc for the 35 and the 375. I like to shoot cast bullets after hunting season is over.

A 9.3x62 is evidently an outstanding cartridge but I doubt one will be in my safe due to lack of opportunity to use it. Granted I likely could get along with just one 30-06 - the rest are just loonism

Seeing you mentioned cast boolits. My Whelen is a 1:14” simply due to indecisiveness. Will cast bullets work well in that twist? I never really used cast bullets outside of a 45-70 Ruger No.1.

With the proper hardness a cast bullet would shoot very well out of your rifle

Cast bullets, properly sized to the rifle's throat, and your Whelen will be outstanding.

I'm getting 2515fps from Saeco #352 248gr cast gas-checked boolits with 53.0grs of IMR-4320. Accuracy is outstanding out of my '88 classic. Shoots 1" groups at 100 yds and bangs steel pans at 300yds with ease. It's my deer load for hunting iowa this year

Cast bullets is far more about fit than alloy. 10-12 bhn makes a great game bullet in the Whelen cast 1-2 thousands over groove. Cast at lineotype hardness also can shoot very well but is brittle which can shatter on bone. Use the same thinking on your Whelen that works well in your 45-70 and your good to go. Mine is a 1-14 old custom Springfield. I shoot the Lyman 35806 280 grain RN with gas check at about 1950 fps. I use imr 4759 but lots of powders work at that range of speeds in the Whelen. Aa 2015, TAC, h335, 4895 sort of range.

Also back when Barnes loading manual #1 came out, there were some 60k loads for the Whelen. I used aa2015 and the original 225x bullet at 2821 fps for a few years. Hammer of Thor. The new powders are far better I would say as that load bordered on too much. Brass in my old loose custom chamber grew a bit. I carry the Whelen around with the GH scope mounted Heinsolt in the drawer at home and the Lyman peep doing duty most of the Time now. It looks and feels very good in my hand swinging along on the American savanna or in the woods. Love this old rifle.

Agree fury- I used loads straight out of that first Banres Manual for my 35 whelen Ackley! I used 53.5 of the old 2015br behind the 250X and 58gr H322 behind the 200x...for 20 years! Only when I had friends help me look up their guesstimated pressure QL did I stop using them, and then it was only because I am down to one good eye, ha (not from the using those loads! lol) Both loads were reportedly over 72K...go figure.

Some of you guys should go spend a couple seasons with the Whelen and the 9.3. One could generally get by with those shooting a 250 and 286 bullet respectively. Both will get.you to 300 yards no problemo. In reality, the majority of game nationwide is shot well inside that range.

I’ve settled on 54 gr of RL15 with 250’s in Remington and Federal brass. That’s is max for that brass and gives me an average of 2450 fps over the chrony. If I want more I switch up brass and run Hornady and Nosler brass which will handle a bit more powder and get me safely to 2650 fps. Or some CFE or MR2000 eels out 2700+fps. All across the chrony and real world speed. I’m quite happy with 2450 fps and that will kill anything on this continent.

Some good points. MV from my Tikka T3 Lite in 9.3 x 62 motivates the 250 AccuBond at +2700 fps from a good dose of RL-17, WLRM primers, Hornady brass @ 3.37" COL. At 500 yds it's still making over 1900 fps. I've not tested it for expansion yet, except in one 6' black bear at 85 yards where it left a blood trail for 20 yards to a very dead bear, that looked like it came from the nozzle of a water hose! With a (claimed) BC of .493 I'd surely take it on a moose hunt to the north of our province and take a poke at a bull at up to 500 yards (my limit). Even if it expanded little, with over 2000 ft-lbs KE nothing good would happen to the moose if hit where aimed. I'd believe that until proven otherwise.

Still, I agree, a good lighter bullet like the GS 195gr might be preferable in some scenarios. But the 250 AB at +2700 fps and 286 NP at over 2600 fps are both more than I'll ever need.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Lots of interesting thoughts in this thread.
Paul B.

Following

My experience with the 250 AccuBond 9.3 at 2650 fps indicates it expands very well on smaller big game out to 300 yards. Have used it a lot in Africa out to that range, started at 2650 fps, on animals from 50-700 pounds, and it has always expanded well. Dunno why it wouldn't, as it's designed to expand like Partitions (softer up front and harder in the rear) and plastic tips definitely enhance expansion. Shot a blesbok about the size of a mature whitetail buck at 300, and the bullet left a 1-1/2" exit hole. Had far less expansion from a Barnes 250 TSX on an oryx shot at around 150.

But if I'm going to consistently shoot stuff at over 300 yards, tend to prefer somewhat more muzzle velocity and BC. Lately have been using the 175 Barnes LRX from my NULA .30-06 at around 2830 fps, and it seems to expand and penetrate just as well as the 200-grain Nosler Partition I used for decades at 2675 fps. It does shoot a little flatter and drift a little less in the wind at 400+ yards, but not much.

In general have found the .35/9.3/.375 rounds don't make all that much difference than .30-.33 caliber bullets when they hit something unless the bullets are 250+ grains in weight. And even then there often isn't much difference.

Sir, if you're still watching this could you post all the other details about your load? Including how hard your alloy is. Also any other loads with other powders that have worked well for you with the Saeco #352?
I bought this same mould expressly for my Whelen, though I expect it'll be nice in the .358 Win too. It's still unused at this point but looking forward to playing with it in the spring, along with the RCBS 35-200-FN.
Thanks in advance,
Rex

Bob,
I may have missed it somewhere, but what’s the barrel length on your tikka? I just received a benchmark 9.3 in a tikka t3 contour for a long contemplated build and I’m trying to decide on barrel length.
Appreciate it.

Sorry for not responding sooner. My alloy isn't exact science yet, but my cast bullets are too hard to scratch. I did recover one fired into an oak stump perfectly mushroomed. A few years ago I ordered one bar of superhard plus a couple bars of pure tin from Rotometals and I make sure at least one or two of the ingots I made from that batch of alloy go in my pot. My cast bullets cast almost perfect to specified weight or slightly less so I know my ratios are about correct for a Lyman #2 alloy. I drop cast bullets into ice water for a little quench hardening and then it's over to the lyman 450 for gas checks and lube. I also make my own lube. I'm running this alloy at 2750fps from a 308win with zero leading and great accuracy. My Saeco load is what I carried for Iowa deer this year but didn't get a shot. The load is accurate out to at least 300 yds which is as far as I can test right now. I don't get over particular on exactly how much antimony and tin I have in each casting batch, but I do make sure that enough is there for my satisfaction. I've been casting bullets since I was 12 years old. I have a feel for what I do and that's what it is. Sometimes the results are amazing and I'm completely impressed. My cast bullets are more than satisfactory for all of my shooting/hunting needs. I can even cast a 22 cal 63gr round nose.

35 whelen saeco 352 official load is 53.0grs Imr-4320 loaded to 3.075" oal lr primers in norma brass. Or Remington brass but I prefer Norma. This load clocked just north of 2500fps 15 ft from the muzzle. Accuracy exceeded my expectations so it's now my standard load

I get all I need with 57.5 gr. Re-15 and a 250 gr. Partition. It shoots just as good with 250 gr. speer, 250 gr. hornady or 250 gr. grand slam.
The biggest thing I have shot with it is a 1100 lb. bison. took 2 steps and laid down and died. I would use it for anything including big bears and not feel undergunned.
It do kick in a remington with plastic stock.

The only difference I could tell between the .366 and .358 accubonds by filing down the bullets was that the .358 accubonds have a small airspace behind the white plastic plug. In the .366 version, there is no void or airspace...the lead goes all the way up to the white tip.

Jackets look similar in cross section. I'm presuming the difference in how the bullets expand is that void behind the tip.

The root of my problem was that the Nosler factory loaded 250 accubonds only got 2400 fps at the muzzle of my 9.3 24" Husky. If the bullets are started at 2700 fps, looks like they don't drop below 2000 fps until past 400 yards (sea level).

Bit academic in the end anyway...I also grab either a 30 cal or 7mm if I think I'll be shooting way out there.

I try not to frequent 24 hour campfire as often as I used to since I was getting out of hand on buying or building rifles. I finally sold most of them or gave them to my kids and grandkids! After following this thread for awhile it appears I'm going to turn one of my tikkas into a 20" barreled 35 whelen. The barrel is shot out and accuracy isn't there anymore so its justifiable.

I've always stayed out of the grizzly areas when hunting elk but have decided to try an area where folks have been known to have grizzly encounters so its doubly justified! I'm thinking I'll try a 200 grain Barnes pushed pretty hard!

I'd like to thank everyone here for helping me to make another poor choice but a good decision 😁

Glad to "help", Trystan!
It'll be interesting to see what you get out of that 20" barrel. If you don't lose over 25 FPS per inch, I expect the new powders we've discussed can get you 2550' with a 250 grain, 2750' with a 225, probably 2850' with a 200. That's 100 FPS below what I get with PP2000MR (250s and 225s) and Varmint (200s) in my 23 inch barrel, and consistent with Speer's and Sierra's data (I am loading 1-2 grains less powder than either of those two sources used for max - I was happy with my results at the milder pressures). I have not played with CFE223 myself, but for all I know it might be better suited to the shorter barrel, or not, but worth a try also.
Are you going to have that Tikka rebored, or go with a new barrel? I used a 14" twist on mine and have been happy with that.
Best of luck and keep us informed.
Rex

Rex, I'm going for a lightweight build so going to order a carbon fiber barrel for it. I'll put a muzzle break on it as well. I visited with a friend of mine who has an FFL licence yesterday so we're currently looking into options. If I can get around the mid 6 ish lbs all in I'll be happy. I'll keep you posted for sure

I'd be pretty happy with a 20" Whelen myself. My current pair are 22" and work great. 2900 with 200 TTSX's isn't any big deal or 2800 with the 220 Hammers. That's going to make a nice packing rifle.

Thanks I'm looking forward to getting it done. I've been wanting to try those hammer bullets! My younger brother is a big fan of them. He's shot several elk with them in his 338 win mag, I can't remember what grain he used. The hammer bullet is becoming his favorite go to. He gets some impressive accuracy in his 338 lapua with hammer bullets as well.

Man, I'll tell ya, they are easy to get shooting and easy to get ahold of and are priced pretty well. I am liking them more and more these days.

In my experience, one of the best bullets for the whelan is the discontinued nosler 225gr ballistic tip. I wish they still made it.

570 mm or 22.44" - it's a Sako match grade and extremely accurate (more than I am!).

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

21-22"... You'll love it AK. Mines a 22" and getting 2750 from the 250 Accubonds is a breeze and man, it is handier than heck!

Trystan: when I cut a 22" Whelen down to 20", I lost a consistent 60-70 fps with most 200-225gr loads, maybe a little less with 250gr loads. Not a huge amount of velocity loss but more than what the internet says it should have been, given the expansion ration of the cartridge. Also, blast definitely increased.

Most of my 250 loads run about 2525 fps from the 20" whelens, using everything from IMR4895 to RL-15 to MR-2000. MR-2000 will get you much closer to 2600 fps, but I got nervous and backed it down.

2675 fps seems to be the accuracy node for most 225grain bullets for both my 20" guns, but you could get a little more, I'm sure. Most factory 200gr ammo runs 2700-2750 from a 20" barrel, I haven't bothered to work up loads with that bullet weight because the factory ammo is so good in that weight and readily available.

Would like to hear how the .358 Hammer bullets do.

Good to know thank you for the heads up

Thank you.
I’m leaning 22 as I expect balance will be better. And for all it’s handiness, less than 22 just looks a little odd in my intended stock.

Give JWP475 a PM. He’s been pounding deer with the 220 Hammers out of his Whelen.

Had a 35 but sold it off. I'd like to get into it again but it's difficult to justify when I've got an 338RCM, 338 win mag, 348 win, 348 Ackley, and a 375 ruger Alaskan. Tough call as those basically all do the same thing with similar weights.

I may go “old school” elk hunting this year with my M700 .35 Whelen 22” 1:16 with either Federal 225 gr TBBC or 225 Partition or Accubond hand loads. I’ve got a new Timney trigger to install, but nothing really wrong with the original. Accurate rifle….

Don’t you run Barnes (200 or 225) out of your Whelen with good success on everything? Barnes in .358 are hard to come by lately and if Hammer is keeping their bullets in stock it would be a good option.

Getting my 35 Whelen loads pressure tested, I'll post results.

200 TTSX and 220 Hammers. Both great options.

Jwp475 bumped me with his load and pics of a victim from said load. Damn! I’m sitting on a good amount of C&C bullets but will definitely add those to my wishlist

Pressure Test of my 35 Whelen loads





I just noticed a typo error on the pressure chart, the 250 grain Hornady was loaded with CFE223 not Power Pro Varmint

So I changed factory loads from 200 gr remington corelokts to a batch of 250 gr I found. The 200s shot great. I recently chopped the barrel to 21 inch and tried the 250s. They're not grouping very well at 100. They're OK but not happy with them. So I'm kinda back to the drawing board myself

It's a rem 700 cdl fyi with factory loads

I just noticed a typo error on the pressure chart, the 250 grain Hornady was loaded with CFE223 not Power Pro Varmint

Good info JWP. Those 220 Hammers are moving and at a safe pressure.

JWP,

Could you give us the COL of those loads, please? And thanks for doing those tests.

That's important for handloads as most .35 Whelens have very long throats, and a .30-06 length action allows over 3.4" COL. A single shot, which I have, allows at least a COL of 3.5" for the 225 -X and nearly the same for the 250gr Partition. The 225 TSX is likely the same length as the 225 X, or close. The 250gr Hornady SP has a 3.48 COL seated 1/4" into the case. Obviously I can load more powder safely - likely RL-17, or one of the new ball powders. I've only owned the rifle for a couple of weeks and now waiting for a a Weaver type single base so I can mount a scope.

It has a stainless 22" barrel with a muzzle brake, and I'll be loading some ammo in readiness for mounting the scope. This is my 3rd .35 Whelen.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I used to shoot Federal Premium 225 gr Bear Claws and they were both accurate and deadly. If I was reloading them I would have to take a hard look at the hammers. They are devastating.

Not available up here in Canada - at least not yet. TSXs, Hornadys and Partitions are most common here. My plan is to use it as a "walk-about brush gun", for scouting, etc. That being the case, a premium 225gr in a TSX, Partition or AccuBond will get the nod at ~ 2700 fps.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob, that 225 TSX, AB and Partition are all awesome bullets, just as you mentioned. Run them 2700-2800 and just watch stuff take a nose dive. I love the Accubond myself outta that weight range but I’ve been working with the 200 TTSX and that sucker leaves nothing to be desired at 2900 FPS.

Looks very good, thanks for that info.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Hammers are available in Canada. https://georgesshootingshack.ca/category/bullets/hammer-bullets/#

BCSteve, thanks for that info. That's handy in Toronto. I also have a source for 225gr Partitions, 200gr and 225gr AB's. It looks like the Noslers have better BCs which may matter at +400 yards.

Thanks again.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

A question about the burn rate of CFE223, where does it fit in burn rate charts, anyone know? I have it for PP2000MR, is CFE223 similar or slower? JB, if you're there, I'm sure you would know!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Thanks for that!!!
I’m just setting up my new-to-me 700 BDL 35 Whelen and scouring through printed loads and load data. Some of the printed data I’ve found to be 5 or more grains more than other sources. I wonder how that author came to the conclusion those loads were ok.

The burn rate chart that I have has CFE223 and then PP2000MR.

I finally ran my CFE loads over the chrono this past week.

63.0 gr + 250 NPT yielded 2,645 fps in a 22" 1:12 barrel. I was impressed. I had loaded up to 64.0 and it was stout - right up there with my .338 and 250 NPTs.

Varget, 4064 and RL15 just can't keep up.

I fired a couple of 250gr Hornady SPs using the same load of 63 grains CFE223. It wasn't run over a chronograph, but was accurate and, as you say, "stiff", but not bad!

Thanks for that info!

Also, thanks to jwp457. I'd guessed it was a little faster, but your tests show much less pressure than a similar load using PP2000MR.

Tomorrow's blog gives an update on my .35 Whelen firing the 225 AccuBonds over 66 grains of CFE 223.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Excellent blog

Nice blog Sir. Thanks for taking the time. I’m enjoying researching for my Whelen and appreciate good, modern information. 👍

If I wanted my Whelen to perform like a Whelen I’d have bought a .358Win. 😁

I think I know what powder I’ll reach for first.

I chrono'd a previously accurate load then shot it at 100yds again, but without the Magnetospeed attached.

35 Whelen
220gr Speer HCFN
62.0gr Power Pro Varmint
Avg 2777fps
SD 14
ES 41
1" @100yds with my terrible eyesight


Thanks, Dinny

Here's the latest on my Traditions OUTFITTER G3 in .35 Whelen: 69 grains of CFE 223 under the 225 AccuBond at 2850 fps. Three into .67" at 100 yards. WLRM primers in Hornady brass. COL @ 3.45". This is now my hunting load at +1" at 100 yds. I could go to 70 grains but will leave well enough alone! No undue stresses on the brass at the above results.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I just loaded some 35 Whelen for a friend. Our velocity goal was 2450 to 2500 fps with a 200 grain and 225 grain bullet. He will be shooting Iowa Whitetail deer and usually at way less than 100 yards. The powder of choice was AA2520. The 200 grain bullet is a round nose Hornady and the 225 is a Nosler plastic tip. I don't remember which bullet but we pretty much decided 2450-2500 fps was plenty enough. His rifle is a Remington 7600. I got to shoot 20 rounds out of his rifle with both bullets. The recoil is significant with either bullet. But, the whole idea with a 35 Whelen is rule number one. Bring enough gun. I'd say the 35 Whelen is enough gun.

kwg

The intent of this thread is to showcase the .35 Whelen "with modern powders and bullets". With all due regard, no one needs a .35 Whelen for bambi or the ballistics from a downloaded .35 Whelen.

As to: "Ya don't need to hot rod the Whelen in order for it to be effective in my experience"; what experience? Lacking details one is left to guess... so I assume it's being suggested that "traditional" loads are adequate for something like a big bull moose to 200 yards or so... a 250gr at 2400? But what if that "big bull moose" is at 400 yards? Modern loads within SAAMI specs of 62,000 PSI for a 250gr Partition at ~2700 fps is more than ample if placed correctly!The impact velocity at 400 yards would still be ~2300 fps, about the same as a "traditional load" at 50 yards! That's the benefit of "modern powders" and a fresh understanding of what the REAL pressure standard IS, not what so many "gurus" imagined it to be when "everyone" thought 52,000 CUP was 52,000 PSI !

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I'm finally back to being able to shoot the heavier recoiling rifles and started 700 Classic 35 Whelen load development. I'm starting with my heavier 225gr. loads first.

My loads used 225gr. Partitions, 225gr Barnes TSX, Remington brass and Win. LR primers.

RL15: 59.0gr.
Part. avg. vel. 2559 fps
TSX avg. vel. 2664 fps

Varget: 60.0gr.
Part. avg. vel. 2709 fps
TSX avg. vel. 2694 fps

CFE223: 67.0gr.
Part. avg. vel. 2804 fps
TSX avg. vel. 2780 fps

There is more room on the throttle for the CFE223. The other two are pretty much maxed out. I've also got PP2000MR, but only two pounds. I don't really want to start with it not knowing when I can get more.

Between the two bullets I got much better accuracy with the TSX, the Partition just didn't shoot well at all. Surprising to me, Varget and CFE were tops in accuracy. The Varget loads cloverleafed 3 shots at 100 yards. The CFE load was just over an inch. I'll focus in on these two powders and the TSX for a closer look. Truth is I could stop right there with either of these and kill anything I'm ever going to shoot with it.

By the way, my youngest daughter (33) went to the range with me for the first time in ten years. She wanted to try the Whelen and went two for two on a ten inch steel plate at the two hundred yard line resting only on a front bag. I guess she's getting the itch to get back out with me.

Thanks for the data/results and for bumping this thread back up Mr. Aboltfan.
Sounds like fun having your daughter out to the range.
Best,
Rex

I’m getting great groups and velocity with CFE 223 and Partitions. Federal cases and GM210 primers.

Tristan
A 6.5 pound Whelen is going to be a handful with 225s at upto 2,900fps and 250s at around 2,700fps. With 310s at 2,455fps it will be downright painful. Mine is 9 pound field ready with scope and 5 in the mag, that pleasant but recoil is very noticeable. I got a 1 in 12 twist, that will handle projectiles from 200 to 310gn no problems.
Bob

I'm a fan of the 35 W. and the 338-06.

I know it's just me, but when I wack something with one of those; the critter is pretty much done.

I know, I can kill something just as dead with my 30-06. Maybe it's the visual of it all.

Just be happy with what you use.

Hey, take a young person hunting this year.

The last post on this subject was five months ago, and I don't think it should terminate with a statement that, in effect, doesn't acknowledge the superiority of a .358-caliber over a .308-caliber based on the same case. I would never own a .35 Whelen if I thought for one moment it had little to nothing to offer over its parent case, the .30-06!

Agreed, under a majority of hunting circumstances for a majority of North American hunters, nothing more than a .243 Win is necessary. The .30-06 adds nothing! But under other circumstances (including the game, range and physical conditions, a .30-06 is a better choice. I don't think any knowledgeable and experienced hunter would argue that! Same for the .35 Whelen over its parent... if it had, or has, nothing to offer over it's parent for particular game under ALL conditions (DG, size, range, angle, etc), it would have been aborted from the start.

To claim that a very substantial increase in bullet mass at the same impact velocity is meaningless is - in a sense - like claiming that there's little meaningful distinction in potential harm to be inflicted in an auto accident of two equal weight mid-size SUVs of about 3500 lbs, or one of the two being a 6000 lb pickup is a denial of reality! If a 1200 lb moose needs to be stopped right there when headed on the run for a lake 50 yards distant, I'd much ranther have the punch of a 250gr Partition from my .35 Whelen impacting the off shoulder in a 1/4 away shot at 2000 fps than a 180gr- .30-cal at the same 2000 fps impact from a .30-06. Neither are the heaviest bullets for each, but they represent common loads for such a task when each is started at ~2700 fps. A .358" has 36% greater frontal area than a .308" and 39% greater momentum at impact, or 1598 ft-lbs vs 2220 ft-lbs from the Whelen.

Choose your medicine, but mine will always be a .35 Whelen over a .30-06 when there are several unknowns and variables.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca