Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters 35 Whelen with modern powder and bullets...?

It’s funny but for a lot of years I always thought the Whelen was softly loaded but if the SAAMI specs are 62k there isn’t too much on the table.

My suspicion is that Remington probably did hold their factory Whelen loadings back a fair bit below 62K, just based on what they showed on chronographs when tested.
I think with the proliferation of good accurate pressure testing equipment these days, and the advent of some really great new powders in the Whelen, outfits like Speer and Sierra are sneaking up a lot closer to that 62K number in their published loads, and that's why their numbers appear so "outrageous" to folks long used to much milder published data and factory rounds.
And I reckon nobody would disagree with beretzs that once you're pushing 62K, there certainly isn't much left on the table.

Great cartridge, just keeps getting greater.

Cheers,
Rex

Yep, i think you’re spot on TRex. I’m curious how long it will take to get the others up to that point. Being a 35 fan for no other reason than rooting for the under dog, it would be nice to see the 356/358, 350 RM and 358 Norma get some love.

Good luck. From what I can remember, Remington's .35 Whelen sales went to about 20,000 rifles in the first couple years, then flattened out considerably.

Could cite other sales statistics, but the basic fact is that the original reason for the .35 Whelen (deeper penetration due to heavier, slower cup-and-core bullets) basically disappeared when the Nosler Partition appeared in 1948. Plus, the traditional 1-16 twist of .35 caliber rifles places a limit on bullet length. The standard 1-10 twist of .338 barrels and 1-14 twist of 9.3mm barrels allows a much wider range of bullets to work well.

My 35 Whelen is a 10 twist.

If that makes a vast difference in bullets up to the traditional 250-grain lead-core spitzers, would love to hear about it. Plus, almost all the .35 bullets over 250 grains are designed to stabilize in the traditional 1-16 twist--even the 280-grain A-Frame.

Plus, every load you've mentioned to me during our discussions has been lighter than 250 grains.

I understand this but I see no down side to more twist unless fragile jacketed bullet. I've experienced excellent accuracy from 180 grain TTSX to 250 grain Hornaday.

And I have experienced excellent accuracy with the same bullets in a 1-16 twist.

Have fooled with a lot of .35's with 1-16 twists using bullets up to 250 grains (or more), from the .358 Winchester to .358 Norma Magnum. All of them would shoot any "standard" .35 caliber bullet designed for the 1-16 twist well. Have also owned a .358 Shooting Times Alaskan with a 1-12 twist, which did equally well--but not better. So don't really see any advantage or disadvantage in a 1-10 twist.

Obviously you're a real rifle loony, and if a 1-10 twist makes you happier then why not?

But my major point (which I may not have stated plainly enough) is that there's zero advantage in choosing a .35 caliber "fast-twist" barrel when .338 and 9.3mm barrels have always featured rifling twists that make the same things possible, without dinking around.

But rifle loonies often like to dink around, for no reason other than they like it, whether there's any practical (or noticeable) difference not. Must confess that after decades of dinking around that I have started to become less enamored of dinking around, since have found relatively few real-world advantages. But whatever.

This makes sense. If so, then is there still a good case to be made for the 35 Whelen over a 30-06 with 180- or 200-grain Partitions?

Not looking to stir the pot, just genuinely curious and I'm working hard to talk myself into building my third one...


Okie John

The way I see it, if with the advancement of bullet technology a .30-06 with Partition or TSX is equals to a .35 Whelen then a .35 Whelen loaded with a Partition or a TSX is equals to...If it bumped up the .30-06 then it also bumped up the Whelen.

Have to respectfully disagree with Mule Deer here.

The Whelen is quite a bit more flexible than the 9.3 for most North American hunting. Mostly because there are no longer any bullets for the 9.3 that are both soft AND aerodynamic (aside from the discontinued 250gr ballistic tip).

In 9.3 you can get soft 232gr bullets OR you can get a slick 250 accubond but you can't get both in one bullet. The 9.3 accubond is a way tougher bullet than the .358 accubond.

The 250 9.3 accubond flies great but below 2000 fps it needs to run into a big tough animal to expand. That is what I have personally found. If someone has found differently--ie run it into smaller animals below 2000 fps and seen good expansion, I would love to hear it. I wanted those bullets to work on animals at longer ranges but they do not seem to expand at slower speeds.

From what I have personally seen the 225 .358 accubond is a very different animal even though it looks very similar to the 9.3 version. The 358 accubond expands (minimally but reliably) down to about 1700 fps--it is actually about the softest .358 bullet I have found (strangely enough it is softer than Sierra and Hornady round/flat noses and way way softer than the 225 SGK). The only 358 bullet I found that is softer are the Hawk bullets. And even at 1700 fps it tends to expand reasonably quickly; there is not much "neck" length to its wound channel even at those slower speeds. And even at higher speeds it seems to retain a good long shank.

Mule Deer has mentioned several times that Nosler understates the BC for the 225 Accubond and based on my come-ups, at least out to 750 yards, that bullet seems to have a G1 BC in the .460 to .470 area, out of my 1:12 twist, anyway.

To sum it up, the .358 225 accubond is a 500 yard bullet (at sea level) if you can get it started at 2700 fps. This is also about what the Nosler factory ammo is loaded to, at least out of three different rifles I have chronographed.

By comparison, if you load it to 2600 fps, the 250gr 9.3 accubond is a 300-350 yard bullet if you are expecting it to expand on non-dangerous game. But, at least out of my rifle, the factory 9.3 250 accubond ammo is way slower, 2400 fps from my 24" barrel, which makes it a 275 yard bullet. Again, if you want expansion without having to run the bullet into a grizzly or moose shoulder.

As far as I can tell the only downside to the 225 accubond is that it seems to be pretty jump-sensitive. But once you get it tuned, again at least from my 1:12 twist, it flies great. At 750 it was holding under 1/2 moa on a calm day. In terms of come-ups and wind and overall predictability to me it feels like shooting a 168gr Federal GMM load out of a 308.

If you need to launch 286gr+ bullets at animals or you're shooting shorter distances, the 9.3 is your huckleberry. But the Whelen is in another class in terms of flexibility. At least until someone comes out with a soft 9.3mm bullet that also flies well.

Trying to get a picture up of how these 225 accubonds fly but somewhat tech impaired.

[img]https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/galleries/16410914#Post16410914[/img]

Some claim that light bullets don't shoot accurately if spun too fast. I don't know how fast "to fast" is but my 35 Whelen shoots 180 TTSX 1/2 MOA or under. Also some claim faster twist aids expansion, we shall see

I've had a lot of fun so far with my 35 Whelen.
I've owned 338's since the 80's including 338 RUM and Lapua. Still have 338 Win and 338 Lapua. 9.3 has never interested me. A good friend is a 9.3 man but I just never acquired an interest.

Of course the Whelen is larger in diameter. If the Whelen isn't needed then why is the 338 needed?

I’ve always thought that 9.3’s were cool but never jumped on one. I would definitely do a 9.3x62 in a nice CZ with wood furniture. I like the medium bores and especially the ones that aren’t ridiculously heavy on the recoil. In other works, I don’t see myself looking for a 378;Weatherby anytime soon. As far as the Whelen, I’m really happy and impressed with its performance on what I hunt. I’ve shot plenty of deer and black bear with’06s and I’ve loaded them rather stoutly. The loads I’ve used in my Whelen, primarily 250’s, drop game like I have never seen from a 30-06. The guys I hunt bear with have been thoroughly impressed with the way it dumps bear. They’ve seen a few shot and I’ll take their word and opinion as gospel. Nothing wrong with the old ‘06 or anything else but the Whelen hits noticeably harder on game.

Since I have other 35’s (35 Rem to 350 RM’s & 35 Whelen & thinking about a Norma) and other 375’s (375 Win to 375 H&H AI) and because I’m likely too old to go to Africa, I’ve come to the conclusion that a 35 Whelen and a 375 Whelen AI is as good for me or better than a 9.3x62. Besides if I were lucky enough to go and I could afford shooting a cape, I think my bigger 375 would work well enough with appropriate bullets.

If I were younger & able to go on safari I think the 9.3x62 to be a worthy cartridge that I’d want due to several reasons. Mainly the wildcat 375 Whelen AI ammo would not be available there. The 35 Whelen likely not good cape medicine and I suspect ammo would not be as available there either. And if didn’t have that bigger 375…

The other issue for me is I have an investment in molds etc for the 35 and the 375. I like to shoot cast bullets after hunting season is over.

A 9.3x62 is evidently an outstanding cartridge but I doubt one will be in my safe due to lack of opportunity to use it. Granted I likely could get along with just one 30-06 - the rest are just loonism

Seeing you mentioned cast boolits. My Whelen is a 1:14” simply due to indecisiveness. Will cast bullets work well in that twist? I never really used cast bullets outside of a 45-70 Ruger No.1.

With the proper hardness a cast bullet would shoot very well out of your rifle

Cast bullets, properly sized to the rifle's throat, and your Whelen will be outstanding.

I'm getting 2515fps from Saeco #352 248gr cast gas-checked boolits with 53.0grs of IMR-4320. Accuracy is outstanding out of my '88 classic. Shoots 1" groups at 100 yds and bangs steel pans at 300yds with ease. It's my deer load for hunting iowa this year