Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

The maximum COL possible with the 402-gr Shock Hammer bullet in the SAAMI .458 Lott:
3.292" COL will be jamming it into the rifling.
Yes, the distance from breech face to start of rifling at 0.458" diameter is 3.0143" for the SAAMI .458 Lott.

For the SAAMI ,458 WinMag the same distance from breech face to start of rifling at .458" diameter is 3.1725",
With the .458 WinMag, that bullet at 3.450" COL is jamming it into the rifling.
Short ogive on the bullet, nose, long shank of .458 major diameter.

Also note that the .458-"400-gr" XTSX will henceforth become a 402-grainer.
That happens when Bubba merely cuts off a 500-gr TSX at the base for 1.400" bullet length.
No hollow point mods to fine tune the weight.
One might say that it is the ".458-402g Hammered By Bubba Bullet" as opposed to the
.458-402g Shock Hammer Bullet by Hammer Bullets.

Barnes makes those TSX bullets by hammer-forging from copper wire,
then cutting the grooves with cutting wheels much like a bank of Dremel Tools.
Tolerances for length and weight on the Hammered By Bubba bullet should be same as those on the Hammered By Barnes TSX.
Not quite as precise as the CNC-turned Shock Hammers.

Sir Ron,

May I assume that if I remove 0.115" from the base of the 450 TSX (making it 1.40") that the weight will be about the same as a 500 TSX reduced to 1.40"? Since I don't have any 500TSX's, I'm wondering if the profile of the 450 is the same as a 500 to 1.40"... and depth of cavity? I could always do one to find out but don't want to fiddle with several 450s to find out!

While the 450 TSX is a fine bullet, yet I'd have more use for a 400 - 402gr. TSX.

Thanks for your work, and thanks in advance if you could determine an answer to my question without too much trouble.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Bob,
If one can bear to sacrifice a 450-gr TSX it might make a better 400-gr XTSX.
I enjoy chopping the 500-gr TSX only because it might be too long for stability in game,
even though it is superbly accurate on paper from a .458 WM+ at 2250 fps MV (0.19 MOA for 3 shots)
and goes only a little over 1 MOA at 2342 fps MV from a skinny CZ barrel of 1:14" twist.
Loaded to 3.78" COL for those shots, it will not even fit into a SAAMI .458 Lott chamber, as you recall,
and I like to repeat.

Just try to start with a batch of bullets that belong to the same lot of manufacture.





Sir Woods has forwarded this excellent JPEG from his batches of TSX bullets:




And here are some generic images from the web:

Here are the technical details from Bubba Bullets:





Typo below: 402.0" was supposed to be "402.0 grains"
Shortening a 1.405", 404-gr bullet to 1.400" resulted in 402 grains of bullet weight, a rough guide:
Minus 0.005" of full diameter bullet base length = minus 2.0 grains of bullet weight.
That works for a 400-gr XTSX whether made from either 500-grain TSX or 450-grain TSX.

Bubba has finally found a good use for .458 Lott brass and a .458 Lott Lee Factory Crimp die.
Seat the XTSX bullet upside-down in the .458 Lott case.
Crimp it in place for a solid grip on the bullet.
This makes a good handle for the bullet when using the thimble-type chamfering tool to break the sharp edge on the base of the bullet.
Pop the bullet out of the handle with a kinetic puller when finished.

Also by crimping the bullet in the Lee FC die at a useful length,
the base of the bullet projects above die enough to allow it to be used as a file-trim die.
Use washers over the top of the Lee Factory Crimper with base of bullet projecting above the washer.
You can use a finer file or stone to finish off the base of the bullet if beautification is desired.
Similar tools can be used to shorten the nose of the bullet to turn a 500-grainer into a 480-grainer,
as previously perfected by Bubba Bullets & Brass Metamorphosis Technologies Ltd., very limited.











So, Bubba recommends these best uses for 500-gr Barnes TSX bullets:
1. Unmolested TSX: Paper targets and gongs at long range.
2. TSX molested at base only for 400-gr XTSX: Any big game or varmint.
3. TSX molested at nose only for 480-gr XTSX: Any big game or varmint.

Riflecrank,

Would every cartridge be better according to you if there were another version for each with an extended throat?

For example a 30-06 vs a 30-06 extended throater.Wouldn't you keep your 30-06?

Apprentice Squire Swiftshot (ASS),
Are you looking to be demoted to Lottite ?
Lottite is synonymous with knave, rascal, scoundrel, and hornswoggler.
Just kidding. No question is a stupid question for it is a chance for education.
You did pick a poor example to improve with a longer throat, however, demonstrating your need for education.

The SAAMI .30-06 Springfield already has a wide-based, leade-only throat with no Parallel-Sided-Free-Bore (PSFB).
The leade is 0.3106" minimum diameter at base with leade hemi-angle of 1*22'00".
It is already a Mini-Me version of the throat of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum.
The .30-06 was my first bolt action rifle, a circa 1980 Ruger M77 Roundtop.
I still have it, though restocked in Brown Precision fiberglass, and it still shoots bugholes.

Other famous wide-based, lead-only-throated cartridges performing beyond the expectations of the average Lottite
include the 9.3 x 62mm Mauser (1905), the 10.75 x 68mm Mauser (1911), and the .425 Westley Richards (1909).

The .425 WR was the first "Short Magnum" with a COL of 3.275".
Had the rim not been rebated and the rifle barrels not 28" long on the originals, it would have succeeded,
due to the power derived from the throat.
Probably clues to Winchester engineering there.

Before becoming a devotee of the SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum throat
I was a fan of the .375 Weatherby Magnum throat revamp circa 2001 by Weatherby and later CIP..
I have patterned many of my wildcat throats after that throat:
About caliber-length PSFB of diameter less than .001" greater than bullet diameter and a 1* to 1.5* leade.
The CIP 460 WbyMag throat is longer than 1.5-times-caliber and works wonders.
The circa 1945 .375 WbyMag throat was about 2-times-caliber length and gave poorer performance (lower MV, less accurate)
with same loads that were outstanding in the 2001 version of the .375 WbyMag throat.

But for overall flexibility and versatility nothing beats the .458 WinMag throat, not requiring nose-sizing for cast bullets,
pressure let-off, good accuracy possible with all bullets and COLs, etc.

Part of the decision about what is to be gained by lengthening the throat is related to the length of COL
allowed by the rifle and bullets available, of course.

Swiftshot,
There is actually a terrific amount of information on this website relating to throats differing from either spec's or through design.
Some older cartridges have what amounts to inherent variation because of their age or longevity, where different manufacturers and actions were producing variance between themselves over literally decades compounded by the tyranny of distance between Europe and the America's, such as for the 7x57, 6.5x55 and the aforementioned 9.3x62.

There are members here that have modified standard cartridges such as the 7mm Remington by extending the throats to allow seating heavier bullets to the base of the neck which also had the effect of closing the gap between the Remington and the Weatherby versions where case capacity was similar, though neck length and throat differed in the factory specs. The same variations were also mentioned by several who adopted the .300 Winchester necked to 7mm to again take advantage of the action length, magazine box and extended throat to maximize velocity potential. Again, larger powder consumption by reducing bullet encroachment opens the door to more powder choices.

The short answer is that you can extend the throat of just about any cartridge if you have the want, disposable income and a willing gunsmith, so ultimately, the chronograph is the arbiter but the judgement relating to any benefit or value, remains with the rifleman.

Most here are experienced enough to have realized that 100fps here and there doesn't matter much in the field, but there can be other gains such as utilizing powders you want to explore or consume and a slightly larger powder column could assist that. The .458 Winchester is a little different because the throat is already existing and utilizing the magazine OAL potential firstly challenges any argument for the SAAMI Lott version and offers a solid 200fps plus over .458 Winchester spec's. Even the current Barnes 450gn Vortex factory cartridges which zip over my Oehler 35P at around 2166fps can be improved by that 200fps+ margin with several powders so by extending the OAL to the potential of the same magazine box in a Model 70, there is capability to increase the impact energy on dangerous game or make shooting a little longer that much easier on big game and even medium game if you are inclined.

Hope this offers a little more info.
John

Amen to Sir Woods !
What the SAAMI .458 WinMag can do with 450-grainers, the .458 WIN+ can do with 500-grainers like Sir Jerry loads.
That is overkill, but hey, Sir Jerry is a big, strapping boy and handles those 500-grainers at +2350 fps quite well.
Ditto the 450-gr TSX at +2400 fps.
Having started shooting at 5 y.o. he has grown into it.

I only had to fire 5 shots with the CEB 450-grain Safari Solid (brass FN) to be done with it.
I used Chimera WinCZechster with a 24-7/8" CZ barrel on a Pre-'64 M70 .30-06 action, in a Tupperware stock, with a Nikon SlugHunter scope.





Barely a .458 WIN+ load, exceeding SAAMI COL by 0.020".



The rifle had been previously zeroed with the Hornady 500-gr DGX and DGS factory loads striking 1" high at 50 yards.
The 450-gr CEB handload happily printed very close to those with no scope adjustment required.
Same scope settings for all 5 shots from fouling to finish.
More accurate shooting can surely be done with this load if bullets are available for the shooting.
Note sandbag keeping the tripod from tipping over with wind gusts over 20 mph:

This will serve notice to Sir Jerry that I can now handle even the HEIC "Live" files
converting them to PNG files that will post here just like JPEG files:

"A Boy and His Gun"

LOL, yes Sir......Sir Ron, the 500 jeff has always been a head scratcher for me, dangerous game cartridge in a bot action rifle, could they not invent anything more apt for feeding failure? The Lott should have been as Jack designed his own rifle, leave anything to a corp and it'll get chit-canned screwed, if for nothing else, in the name of profit.

Cool deal on the .512" 777's, they have an amazing presence when you turn one loose ; ]

Sweet! near 55 years between those two pics, Thanks Sir Ron, sorry i couldn't be of more resistance on my end of the iPhone 12 delivery system.

Many, many thanks Sir Ron for all of this, with the photos!

My office is now overcrowded with too much stuff but the holes are still there in the corner of a desk where once there was a bench vise. Will have to get another.

In the meanwhile I've settled on the 405 Rem and 400 Buster for relatively close in bear hunting at around 2100 fps, the 350 TSX at 2750 fps for longer range deer/wolf and the 480 DGX if I ever hunt moose again. The beauty of a 400 TSX would cover all bases!

Thanks again and best to you...

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Most have read the heavy promotion here for a Barnes 400gn (TSX) bullet which for once, is based on first hand experiences and observations.

I would ask anyone with first hand experience that can be reported in details as to rifle, load, game and circumstances/range etc where a negative experience occurred using this bullet. Those that never had this experience would welcome a counter argument.

This being the "innernet", its not possible to not have dissenters is it?

Edited: let me justify this question........
It is very common to find opinions on bullets, with Sectional Density being tossed around in the argument favoring one bullet over another. This level of interest in a 400gn bullet where existing bullets go up another 200 grain in weight for caliber also stretches SD's from .272 to.409 which is a staggering range for a single caliber.

Where general hunting bullets are concerned, Gary Sitton once wrote that he felt a SD or around .240 was a good baseline. I used to agree with that until I proved it wrong by killing animals with sectional densities as low as .151 and at some very long ranges requiring Kentucky windage. But that was a world where cup and core bullets were the most common for all game including large and dangerous game. In today's world, the reality is, that Sectional Density was originally used as a reference point where non expanding full metal case bullets were used for dangerous game. The theory being, that non expanding bullets retained that SD during penetration which is why the discussions were had where bullet riveting occurred as it firstly, interfered with penetration and secondly, changed the SD after it occurred (technically at least as it could never be measured after deforming).

What this means is that a theorist commonly argued that the higher the SD the more superior the penetration which is not true. I have gained 5 plus feet penetration with the 400gn Barnes X bullet and less than a foot with a 500gn Hornady on the same sized game. How can a SD of .272 out penetrate a SD of .341?

Bullet construction always was the answer. It also answered the problem of 500 grain FMJ's riveting inside elephant and reducing penetration or deviating straight line penetration or both. Homogeneous bullet design is unlikely to be improved upon in a rifle projectile for penetration. An expanding version only make sense where penetration assists a quick kill or the anchoring of larger game quickly.

But let's not compare apples with rocks here...

I've tested a lot of .458" bullets in various media: How can a 330gr Barnes solid (no longer offered) pass completely through 15.5 inches of very tough media and was lost in the hillside beyond while a 500gr Speer GS only made it through 6.5 inches? Construction! The GS blew the nose off retaining less weight at 310grns than the 330gr solid with a flat tip! Plus - the 330 never deformed (according to the witness of the last plank it passed through) while the 500 GS had a "nice mushroom" doing more immediate damage than the 330!

So, if we're going to compare bullets, let's do so with those of the same style and construction and see whether the 500 Barnes brass solid with the flat tip will out-penetrate that 330! I retain NO doubts that it will! I believe it's been proven that a heavier flat-tip solid will penetrate more than a like constructed lighter solid if both are given the same psi starting out! The lighter bullet will be leaving the muzzle faster but slow more quickly also. A 500gr from a .458 at, say, 2300 fps (about max from my Ruger #1 in .458) carries more momentum than a 350gr at 2750 (max from my rifle) at the muzzle by 19%, and increases that number to impact depending on range, if they have the same profile, because of 43% greater SD than the 350gr. And IF they have similar construction there's little doubt the 500 will create greater cavitation because it will maintain its velocity better through the medium (animal or otherwise). Yes, I agree, if a bullet is too long and too slow for the rate of twist in the barrel, as it slows it may tumble in the medium.

The 500grn Hornady RN in the test mentioned above didn't fair as well as the 500gr Speer... it "blew up", "disappeared" inside the first box with fragments never found! BUT! its kinetic energy flipped the box of media upside-down and made a mess! Does KE matter? You bet! So it's not about just one thing or another! Many variables are involved!

See my next blog on this theme, to be posted tomorrow.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Jerry,

You may have been a kindergarten shooting prodigy and remain a virtuoso performer after nearly 55 years, but don't get the big head.
I have been absorbing peripheral and central nervous system trauma for over 59 years now.
I won't hazard a guess as to how long Sir Bob has been doing it and he is old enough to be my father, especially if he hailed from Kentucky.
Sir Woods is about a year older than me and has been significantly traumatized by the 460 Weatherby Magnum.
Never forget: Age before beauty.

Hear, hear ! To Sir Woods.
Hear, hear ! to Sir Bob's rhetorical protest to emphasize what Sir Woods said.

A review of some 400-gr loads starting with the .458 WM+, using .458 Lott loads from Barnes No. 3 as a guide,
then proceeding to the SAAMI .458 WM loads of Sir Saint Finn Aagaard in the next post.











Tune the load to your rifle's liking, and yours.
But hey, why limit the .458 WM to only 60,000 psi when the .458 Lott is allowed 62,500 psi MAP ?
Even the .270 WCF is allowed 65,000 psi MAP by SAAMI !

Hear, hear ! To Sir Saint Finn Aagaard:



He was a PH in Kenya before coming to USA after 1977.
Here he demonstrates proper technique for rapid reload if a followup shot from a .458 WM should ever be needed, rare indeed:





This primer brisance and brass case capacity info may not be as applicable with current makes:

Another .46-caliber can just heard about, optimized for .458, use it on anything smaller,
one can does all trade-off:

https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2021/08/27/dead-air-primal/

LOL! no big head here Sir Ron, i remain a lifetime student, always more to learn.