Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

No doubt young Sir Jerry's .458 WM+ combo of
450-gr TSX at +2400 fps
and
500-gr TBSS at +2350 fps
is hard to beat.
All done at less than 3.6" COL.

For the geriatric set, it is clear that a 400-grain soft and solid combo, at whatever velocity is comfortable for the old bones,
will do it all, whether in SAAMI .458 WM or .458 WM+.
Just don't forget to apply the brakes on the wheelchair if shooting from a sit with +2500 fps 400-grainers.

Lest we forget, coming sooner or later from Hammer Bullets, after their tweaking: .458 Cal-400g Shock Hammer



Barnes Buster for the 400-gr solid until something else is available without the little pinhole in the meplat.



The .458 Cal-402g Shock Hammer (above) might make a good solid.
Seated with powder filling the hollow point, if it would feed with such a huge meplat, base forward.
Big FN and hollow base, CG forward, adding dart stability to shoulder stability.
That might Bagwell.

Sir Ron,
Having just read the above, I am reminded of how effective the 450 grain NF and 450 grain Punch bullets were on Cape Buff (shot through them) and on Ele (shot through the head and on into the body) at only 2150 fps!!!

"No doubt young Sir Jerry's .458 WM+ combo of
450-gr TSX at +2400 fps
and
500-gr TBSS at +2350 fps
is hard to beat.
All done at less than 3.6" COL."

I am persuaded to stick with our Geriatric loads and keep my .458 2.4 rifle weight below 10 pounds; and COL = 2.88 inch.

Some say "its all in the wrist" !

Sir Charles,

OK by your nomenclature:



A 400-grainer soft and solid combo at anywhere from 1800 fps to 2500 fps should satisfy all ages of man and beast.
Might be able to get them shooting very close to same POI at close range where either a soft or solid might be used.
The pointier soft will make the long range hits easier.

Sir Saint Bagwell used a semi-soft lead 480-grainer at 1300 fps to do all with his .45-2.1-Incher Sharps with barrel sights.
The 400-grain Barnes Buster might do all at 1800 to 2000 fps in lever action or single shot.
Ditto the 480-grain DGX at 1600 fps or faster.
No need to expand for any of those to make a bloody big hole in anything needing it.



I'm saving the 480-gr DGX for my M1886 lever action.
If I ever needed 480 grainers in the .458 WM or .458 WM+
(not likely with 400-grain Shock Hammer on the way)
Bubba will cut off the tips of 500-gr TSX bullets.

LOL! "geriatric set?"...............you guys better gas on it or i'll catch you!

Back to the old man schtick, even the elderly can handle a .458 WM:

Tom was a good shot.
A cape buffalo that was gut-shot with a .458 WM in 1959 in Mozambique was the excuse used for precipitating the urgently needed .458 Lott wildcat in 1971.
Meanwhile, Jack and his buddies continued happily hunting dangerous game with their .458 Winchester Magnum rifles,
apparently oblivious to the .450 Watts Magnum of 1949.
Methinks somebody just wanted a wildcat named after himself.
It was a good wildcat, made from a rechambered .458 Winchester Magnum simply altered to accept 2.8" brass instead of 2.5" brass,
with no setback of the .458 Winchester Magnum throat.
Too bad it got messed up with the short throating by A-Square in the 1989, then finally the official SAAMI version circa 1995 thanks to Art Alphin.
I consider his naming of the .577 Tyrannosaur cartridge (just the name, not the cartridge) a much greater accomplishment
than his short-throating of the .458 Lott.

The reference to the gut shot buffalo is a fact stated by Lott within his own article which has been misconstrued over time.
It is too important not to repeat it here. We spend an awful "lott" of time extolling the virtues of shot placement over cartridges used, yet the .458 Winchester had a continual barrage of slander over too many years for lousy factory ammo and poor bullet placement. Neither issue had anything to do with the cartridge design.

Powder and bullet improvements since the 1960's make the old yarns irrelevant to the modern .458 user.

I probably qualify as the "Oldest Man" with a .458 Winchester Magnum that he still has plans for other than selling it or giving up on it!

But a few words on some .458" bullets tested with results: I just read somewhere (I read a lot of stuff so don't always make a note of from where) how great the former 500gr Speer GS soft performed in Africa. Yet in my bullet test box it only penetrated 6.5" and lost most of the front core, retaining 62%. It did have a fair "mushroom" though. The 480 DGX, on the other hand, with both started at about the same MV of 1800 fps, went completely through the test media (15.5 inches that was hard cover books, dry glossy magazines and two 1.75" softwood planks) impacting a rock ledge leaving a clear .458" imprint. Unfortunately it was lost, though a serious effort was made to find it. The 500gr Hor Int at 2000 fps turned the first box upside down and was never found inside that box nor were there any further holes in the media to identify its exit!

The "solids" completely penetrated everything as well as one of the 350 TSX's, but it hit the edge of one of the planks, tumbled and was lost in the ground beyond. About a year later it was found using a metal detector but none of the other solids were found. They included a 400gr Barnes Buster and the former 330gr FT brass solid. The witness of the holes in the planks clearly revealed that the solids, plus the 480 DGX made neat round holes, caliber size without going off line of direction..

And I have two good loads for the 480 DGX that should work well on anything that I can hit with them: An 1810 fps MV load (identical to the test media load) that, as Sir Ron pointed out, will kill if it never expands with that flat tip; and another load at 2353 fps (82 grns H4895) for bragging rights! The "slow load" at 1810 is motivated by 67 grns of RL-15, WLRM primers. The case was WW. Recoil from the 1810 load is calculated at 29.57 ft-lbs with Mag-na-ports, scope and four cartridges on the buttstock.

That's just some added data that may be of interest to someone.

In going through my "bits and pieces" I've discovered a few 450gr Original X-bullets and some 400gr RN Colorado Custom. CC was bought from Barnes many years ago prior to Coni and Randy Brooks buying Barnes. Then, CC was bought back by Barnes but their 400gr Originals of today do not compare with the Colorado Customs, which have not only a RN but little lead showing, with a much tougher jacket. The BC is quite good at +.300 and I'll drive them with the same load I'm now using for the 405 Rem and 400 Barnes Buster at around 2100 fps. If they shoot into the same group then they'll replace the 405 Rem for bear.

Just to keep you up to date on this "Oldest Man" who still uses a .458 Win Mag as his main firearm, and not yet in a wheelchair!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Definitely worth repeating, Sir Woods, what with Lottite reading comprehension being what it is.
So there, I repeated it again, hoping it will get through the Lott of thick noggins still out there.

Ha ! Sir Bob is my hero !
Probably is the oldest living man still hunting with the .458 Win.Mag.
If I live as long I hope to follow his example.

From his latest blog: https://bigborefan.wordpress.com/

A gem for discussion:



I assume that both of the 350-grain TSX bullets impacted at 2400 fps.

I once shot a cape buffalo with the .510-cal./ 450-gr. GSC HV , MV was 2650 fps, it impacted at about 75 yards.
A second shot was placed between his shoulder blades from close range, like 5 to 10 yards, after he was believed to be dead, lying on his side.
The bullet that killed him had a pinched shut nose too, but still tumbled through his heart.
I think it hit the humerus, heaviest bone in his body before it got to his heart.
The one that was fired up close had a perfect mushroom.
Gerard Schultz redesigned that bullet after he saw pictures of it.

SD drives expansion at any given velocity.
The .510"/ 450-gr SD = 0.247
The .458"/ 350-gr SD = 0.238
The .458"/400-gr SD = 0.272
The 400-gr monometal copper bullet might work better than the 350-grainer if both are impacting at about 2400 fps.
The 450-gr monometal copper bullet might work better still, but many old men say the 400-grainer is good enough.

By the way, Sir Bob,

The Mitchell Terminal Effect Index = (Kinetic Energy at Impact) x (Sectional Density) x (Cross Sectional Area of Bullet)

MTE Index = KE x SD x CSA

This may be simply computed from velocity in fps of bullet at impact (V) and bullet weight in grains (W).
Bullet diameter cancels out by multiplying SD and CSA.

MTE Index = (V squared/450387) x (W squared/8920)

MTE Index = [(V^2)/450387] x [(W^2)/8920]

That is a simple pocket calculator calculation with only 2 variables to be input, bullet velocity and bullet weight.

Actually makes sense, because if the KE down range is great, it is only going to happen with a heavy bullet that maintained velocity well.
To have the required good BC requires SD.
To be heavy requires CSA.
The MTE Index favors bullet weight as much as velocity, same exponent,
and the "down range" velocity aspect is dependent on caliber and weight (SD) contributions to BC.
Circular logic ?
Certainly better than KE alone.

Great pictures. Be nice when the market lets loose a little and we can buy more 458 Bullets.

Sir Scotty,

Coming soon:



Available now from Hammer Bullets:

Yes sir. I believe you’re right. That looks like a deadly darned bullet.

IMHO a 400 grain mono metal expanding and flat point solid is the perfect choice in the 458 WM & 458 WM+

I have to agree with that.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

The old 1.5x5 Leupold died on me today. Shot once and it wouldn’t focus. I tried screwing and messing with it and finally just took it down and swapped it.



Swapped it for an old M8 4x long tube I had.



Decided to try the 250 grain Monoflexs over 78 grains of H4198 seated at 3.30”

When I speed checked them they averaged about 2910 or so.





While not quite a 22-250 it’s pretty lively from prone and I think I could knock a deer off with it. Zeroed it 2.5” high at 100. Should give me a 0-250 thumper.

Take a darn bit to zero those old friction turrets but hopefully with the long ring spacing it’ll hold up. It is quite fun airing those old 458 out. Once I get some nerve I’ll get some of those 400 Hammers as well. Just to try. For now, I’ll pretend it’s an 06 with 165’s.

Sir Ron,

I've been aware of the deficiencies of the TE formula for quite some time, knowing comparative results were based on momentum alone. Then the TKO is similar with the exception of caliber being introduced which is the main distinction between the terminal effect of various calibers if momentum is the same.

I've played with a dozen different formulas, at least, and have felt ,rightly or wrongly, that momentum is more important than KE, but didn't want to ignore KE as it is a factor.

One other formula that takes in M, SD and CSA, is the following, and I actually like it better though it doesn't consider KE.

Mom. X SD X CSA = KE

Example from my former blog:

1342 fps at impact from a 500gr/.458-cal = 671000 x .341 x .165 /300 = 125.8 TE (the 300 number is to reduce it to manageable terms)

A 250gr x 2684 = 671000 x .313 x .09 (250gr/.338 cal) /300 = 63 TE
A 275gr x 2440 = 671000 x .348 x .09 (275gr/.338 cal)/300 = 70 TE

So in effect momentum, SD and CSA have been included while KE is ignored,

The distinction in the two.338 loads (which have the same mom. as the .458 load) is based solely on the SD distinctions while in other caliber sequences both SD, CSA and momentum might be involved.

In the curent MTE formula, TE would be equal in the three distinct loads above (though at different ranges) -- and, of course, in most cases it would be very difficult for lesser cartridges to equal the .458 using a 500gr (even at less than an optimum load) in momentum at the same impact range. Of course, I counted on that.

But I think I will now go to the momentum formula above x SD x CSA.

As I've written many times, its a comparative thing for personal use, though many other variables could always happen or be introduced, as in the last on bullet testing.

But many thanks for your input, it has convinced me to ignore KE, though I still think it has value because of experience and science.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca