Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

That looks like the 500 gr Hornady fmjrn. At least that's what the solids that were loaded in some 458 Lott, Hornady factory ammo looked exactly like. But that was 15 , 16 years ago.
????

55 keeps it alive 😁

Sir Ron,
That 600gr was indeed from an original plastic box with Barnes name on it, which I no longer have. I think (if my memory hasn't completely failed) that it went with the CZ550 when sold, thinking I couldn't use them in my Ruger #1, .45-70 LT. Too long for stability in the 1:20 twist rate. In fact, I did try them at about 1900 fps from that rifle and they showed tilting in a target at 100 yds. But that wasn't all it could do in that rifle; I believe 2000 fps was safely possible.

The 500gr FMJ RN was offered by Hornady at one time until complaints came in over it's performance on big DG. I've only fired a few, but haven't tested them in media. One day I hope to. They are called "ENCAPSULATED" ON THE BOX OF 50, of which I still have most. The thick bronze jacket of about .075" "encapsulates" a hardened lead core with a copper "cap" on the bottom end. I must try them in tough media when all is in place. I've no doubt they would "sail through" the same media in which I previously tested several .458" solids and softs.

Many thanks for your continued excellent work. And get that knee back to health soon!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

PS: I've just posted a new blog on "SLOW and HEAVY or FAST and LIGHT?". The blog you've referenced is still there, only continue on down from the new one.

Sir Spruce,
Buy a donkey. Sir Bob confirms.
I now vaguely remember the Hornady "encapsulated" bronze-jacketed RN FMJ with a copper or gilding metal cap on the bottom of the bullet.
I never bought any of those.
My oldest Hornady RN FMJ are steel jacketed with exposed lead on the base.
I skipped right over the "encapsulated" and took up again with the DGS with flat nose and steel jacketed 500-gr and 480-gr "solids."
Hornady, bless their hearts, have finally come up with good bullets for the .458 WinMag, .458 Lott, and .450 NE with the DGS and DGX combos.
The nose projections are short enough to work in the Lott with the 500-grainers, though handicapping the .458 WinMag unless seated less deeply than on the factory cannelure.
The 480-grainer is bore diameter and less ahead of the cannelure, so as to work in the no-throat .450 NE.
That too needs to be seated less deeply in the .458 WinMag for optimum ballistics.
But it works well in the no-throat .45-70 Gov't.

So now I assume that the the TC Bone Crusher 400-gr/.458-cal FMJ solid was made by Hornady.

I missed out on those longer, cannelured, 600-gr Barnes Originals too.
Good to know of such things.
Buy a donkey to Sir Bob.

By golly ! Sir Bob is working overtime with another blog entry today:

https://bigborefan.wordpress.com/20...fast-and-light-which-is-best-in-hunting/

The Taylor Knock Out (TKO) was an index meant for solid bullets used on elephant skulls for a Knock Out with a near-brain miss.
The TKO was OK, or not, depending on whose opinion was rendered.
It was basically a product of caliber, weight and velocity of the bullet, with some constants thrown in for unitary consistency.

I propose a simplified new index for application to soft point bullets used on big game.
Coincidentally the numeric value of this new Lethality Index equals the weight of the game animal, in pounds, for which it is adequate.
It will be called the Game Weight Index (GWI) of the load.
It is very simple, but requires impact range adjustment of velocity, like Sir Bob's MTE.

GWI = (fps bullet velocity at impact )x(grains bullet weight) / (inch-caliber of bullet)x(1000) = Maximum game weight in pounds on the hoof, for the soft point load suitability.

Try it, you will like it.

For .375 H&H with 300-gr Barnes TSX (BC = 0.357)

2500 fps at 000 yards: GWI = 2500x300/.375x1000 = 2000#
2263 fps at 100 yards: GWI = 2263x300/.375x1000 = 1810#
2041 fps at 200 yards: GWI = 2041x300/.375x1000 = 1633#
1832 fps at 300 yards: GWI = 1832x300/.375x1000 = 1466#

Let us compare the .458 WinMag with 400-gr GSC HV (BC = 0.372)
... the upcoming 400-gr/.458-cal Shock Hammer should be very similar in BC ...

2500 fps at 000 yards: GWI = 2500x400/.458x1000 = 2183#
2273 fps at 100 yards: GWI = 2273x400/.458x1000 = 1985#
2058 fps at 200 yards: GWI = 2058x400/.458x1000 = 1797#
1856 fps at 300 yards: GWI = 1856x400/.458x1000 = 1621#

Another old favorite of mine and Sir Bob, the .340 WbyMag with 250-gr Nosler Partition (BC = 0.473)
at 2818 fps (most accurate load in Nosler #9, and as modest as the above .375 & .458 loads)

2818 fps at 000 yards: GWI = 2818x250/.338x1000 = 2084#
2625 fps at 100 yards: GWI = 2625x250/.338x1000 = 1942#
2440 fps at 200 yards: GWI = 2440x250/.338x1000 = 1805#
2263 fps at 300 yards: GWI = 2263x250/.338x1000 = 1674#

A .375 H&H 300-grainer at 2500 fps is a classic sort of load that has been judged "adequate" by most.
Good for an 1800-pound buffalo inside of 100 yards.
The .458 WinMag with 400-grainer might be better, at all ranges to infinity.
The .340 WbyMag might be barely better at 200 yards, but not at 100 yards, where buffalo should be shot.

The 450-gr TSX in the .458 WM+ with a tropical load (BC = 0.369),
Sir Jerry does a bit better than this with his M70 rifle with 3.6" box and SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber:

2400 fps at 000 yards: GWI = 2400x450/.458x1000 = 2358#
2176 fps at 100 yards: GWI = 2176x450/.458x1000 = 2138#
1966 fps at 200 yards: GWI = 1966x450/.458x1000 = 1932#
1768 fps at 300 yards: GWI = 1768x450/.458x1000 = 1737#

With a proper 500-gr soft at 2350 fps in the .458 WM+, consider MV only, pending BC of the unspecified soft bullet:

2350 fps at 000 yards: GWI = 2350x500/.458x1000 = 2566#

I like this.
Good as any lethality index and easily calculated.
It equally weights velocity and bullet weight and by dividing by caliber favors sectional density.
Impact velocity factors in the BC.
What can possibly be wrong with this ?

Gentlemen,



Look what I got hold of... some 450gn Hydro's!

I have been wanting to try these for ages so my friend Anthony George hooked me up with some and I can't wait to do some testing...


I loaded up 7 rounds (in some real cruddy looking cases!) with 75gn of BENCHMARK powder and I'm going to shoot them over the chronograph tomorrow. I'm hoping for around 2200fps...

My mag length means I'm limited to 3.340 COL and these are a long projectile, so if you don't like compressed loads these aren't your babies!
They're compressed!
Loaded long this wouldn't be such a problem and I'm tempted to try the 400gn Hydro's next in my rifle to see how they go. But I'm trying the 450's first and I reckon at 2200fps they will be just awesome against anything.

Stay posted guys and I'll let you know tomorrow how they go!

Russ

Sir Russ,

Excellent.
That will be some nice data for the manual. Buy a donkey in advance.
Woodleigh manual claims 2280 fps for your load in unspecified but assumed to be 24" barrel length.
That is the max velocity load they show, 75.0 grains of Benchmark or Bench Mark 2.
Good show !

The feed caps do increase the BOL by about 0.149".
BOL without cap = 1.303"
BOL with cap = 1.452"
If your rifle feeds them well without the cap then you can decompress or add even more powder.

Great, Sir Ron,

The only change I'd make would be in using the CSA of each caliber rather than the nominal caliber, for this reason: The distinction between calibers isn't linear but in area, and that is a significant factor to be considered. For instance: .375/.458 = .8188, or say the .375 is 82% of a .458, whereas in reality the distinction in cross-section-area is .110/.165 = .6666, or say the .375 is in reality only 67% of a .458. Just a further consideration, but I don't want to mess with the simplicity of your GWI.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Russ,
Probably worth loading a couple out to about 3.550" and single load for the exercise with a little more powder?
John

Yep, I might just do that

Russ

Hey guys,

I have some chronograph results for you all!

The load was:
450gn Woodleigh HYDRO
Winchester case (trimmed)
75gn BENCHMARK (BM2) powder
CCI 250 Mag primer
3.340" OAL (crimped)





Pretty happy with that!

Russ

Sir Russ,

Outstanding work !
If that is a 5-yard average of 2317 fps for 3 shots (2316.7)
with 450-gr HYDRO with cap:
BC = 0.250
MV = 2337 fps.

In a 24" barrel IIRC ?
The LOAD:
450gn Woodleigh HYDRO
Winchester case (trimmed)
75gn BENCHMARK (BM2) powder
CCI 250 Mag primer
3.340" OAL (crimped)

Buy a donkey for the data.

Someday I hope to find some 400-gr/.458 HYDROs.
Bobbed Bullets, Ltd. might have to make them by pulling the 500-grainers out of the Federal factory loads.
That brass saws and files nicely !

Thanks for the report.
NF 350 grain SS is regulating well at 50 yards in my 45-70 DR. Taking it out to 100 yards next week and if OK, It will be time to go hunting.

Brand x 400 grainers shoot well also. I will have to get some NF 400 grains to load.

Those NFs look beautiful! It's a bit jarring to see "Made in Sweden" under a map of Montana with "North Fork" in western-style script. I guess it could be worse...like "Made in China." Just glad we can begin getting those bullets again.

Sir Ron,

Yes, it was fired in my Zastava M70 with 24" barrel.
Was very happy with the results and it would take a lot animal to stop that bullet at that speed!
Oh, I'm sorry... I forgot, it's a .458 Winchester Magnum! According to the 'experts' it would bounce off!

Russ

Sir Russ,

That is funny. Buy a donkey for that bit of levity.

Lottite = expert
NOT!

Lottite = Nottite = Lotthead = Knothead

'Ernest Hemingway’s friend A.E. Hotchner once described a “yellowed four-by-five picture of Ernest,” shown him by Hemingway,
“aged five or six, holding a small rifle. Written on the back in his mother’s hand was the notation,
‘Ernest was taught to shoot by Pa when 2½ and when 4 could handle a pistol.’”
Firearms and shooting infused Hemingway’s existence and thus his writing ...'



Hemingway tops Sir Jerry for early age to start shooting.
Wasn't Hemingway's Pop a medical doctor ?
My how times have changed !
Good medicine and education back then is child abuse now.

Speaking of education, reminds me of higher math being practiced over at Sir Bob's latest blog:

https://bigborefan.wordpress.com/2021/09/11/a-reworked-te-formula/

Sir Bob:
If you multiply KEI by MF (your modified TKO containing M, V, and both CSA and sectional density {the M/CSA equivalent} as multipliers, instead of caliber alone),
your new TE ends up being momentum cubed with some manipulation by constants for manageable numerical value:

TE = (M^3)(V^3)/N

Sir Bevan,

You misspoke, that is a Wyoming map not Montana,
but, yes, it sure is better to have Swedish North Fork Bullets than Chinese North Fork Bullets !
Buy a donkey for expressing that sentiment !