Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Sir Indy,
You have chair # 22 at the Square Table.
Congratulations.
Keep up the good work.
Doing good has no end.

My concluding words at the other forum today, where it will fall on deaf eyes most likely:
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Nowadays, If one can handload, one can get within 50 fps of the .458 Lott with 500-grainers, and do it at lower pressure
(60,000 psi instead of 62,500 psi) and with COL of 3.340" instead of 3.600".
It is all about throat.
If one uses same higher pressure and same longer COL as the .458 Lott, with bullets long enough to do that in the .458 WinMag,
one can outperform the SAAMI .458 Lott (2.8" case) with the non-SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum (2.5" case).
It is all in the throat.
Physics cannot be denied.

The .458 Lott Protective Association is all about commercialism.
I recommend reaming your SAAMI .458 Lott with a SAAMI .458 Winchester Magnum reamer to correct the throat.
Then it will be just like the .458 Lott that Jack Built.
Then it will be on par with the .458 Winchester Magnum.
Any load safe in the .458 WinMag will then be safe in your .458Lott like Jack Built.

If the short-and-tight-throated SAAMI .458 Lott at 3.600" COL and 62,500 psi will do 2300 fps with a 500-grainer,
then the long-leade-zero-parallel-sided-free-bore-throated SAAMI .458 WinMag at 3.340" COL and 60,000 psi will do 2250 fps with same 500-grainer.
Do I hear an "amen?"
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Fairly humorless bunch over there.

Old Fugly the .458 Lott is coming along nicely.
Just now I have been hogging out the tip of the barrel channel to insert a piece of picatinny rail
for flashlight mounting beneath barrel like Phil Shoemaker did on his Old Ugly .458 WinMag.
Old Fugly is short for: Old "Fouled-by-rechambering-to-458-Lott" Ugly.
The "before" picture of the only .458 Lott rifle I own:



NECG 3-pos safety, flashlight Picatinny, and Krylon&Rustoleum spray paint camo pending,
photographs to follow when the paint is dry and epoxy hardened.
The white flourescent tape used on barrel and scope for night sight will wait until the paint is aged a little.
I expect to be able to safely fire my .458 WM+ loads in this .458 Lott Like Jack Built.
It has original .458 WM throat length from breach to end of throat leade.
Same powder charge and same COL means same degree of powder compression in the .458 Lott as in the .458 WM+
of course !

It's great to see Sir Indy at the Square Table. He will have a warm welcome here!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Amen!

Buy a donkey for the amen, Sir Dennis.

Old Fugly has arrived:



Above is with 2.5X20mm Leupold rotated 90* for more open loading port.
Below is with 2.5-8X36mm Leupold in standard orientation.



The flashlight mount and a 3-pos safety completed Old Fugly.

This was the "Shoemaker ShineMaker Picatinny" Flashlight Mount under construction:





Now for a good laugh, the firing-pin-blocking safety (3-pos. from NECG) was spot blued with a torch and cold blue,
so it looks like an ugly attempt at color-case-hardening,
and the trigger-block side safety (2-pos.) was left in place.
TWO SAFETIES !!
That ought to make a Lottite feel safe from himself, a great selling point, a lott of sales appeal there.

I think your recreation is darned good RC! Pretty danged utilitarian.

Need to get old 458 over here to get a piece of this thread.

Sir Scotty,

Buy a donkey for those flowers.
Old Fugly shares with Old Ugly the same Whitworth MkX .458 WinMag barreled action and a Brown Precision fiberglass stock blank.

Phil Shoemaker aka 458Win could make hay here for sure.
Whether he likes it or not he is hereby beknighted.
Sir Phil is a Knight of the .458 Winchester Magnum Brotherhood.
He has a chair at the Square Table, where we celebrate in peace, with the .458 WinMag deniers long since defeated.
All the Lottites have tucked tail and fled.

Old Fugly is a lesson.
There was no need to re-chamber her from .458 WinMag to .458 Lott.
She is a .458 Lott Like Jack Built.
As such, she can only equal a SAAMI .458 WinMag loaded like a .458 WM+.
Beats a SAAMI .458 Lott,
but will handle rat loads and birdshot loads like a SAAMI .458 Lott, the only possible advantage to the 2.8" brass.

A dissection of Old Fugly would show many desirable features, comparable to Old Ugly,
and also some features not so desirable, i.e., those required to convert her to a .458 Lott !
The Old Ugly .458 WinMag of Phil Shoemaker will do all quite handily.

I was not able to get the 400 North Fork softs. But,

I did get some of the 350 grain Cup Point expanding solids. Which may work out fine, hopefully.
I will use one bullet for my use in Alaska. I am planning to use these in 45-70 lever rifles and bolt rifles in 458 Winchester and Lott.
The use is 100 yards or so maximum and most probably well under that distance. For any animal that is legal while I have one of these rifles with me.

If it groups well and feeds well in these rifles, it should be a workable compromise.

Sir Larry,

Very nice !
Please post an image of your new bullet and measure the overall length of the bullet,
as knightly duty for the brotherhood.
Buy a donkey in advance.
Will compare to old images from the web.
I never got any 350-gr North Forks of any type for the .45-bore.
Should be a heckuva useful bullet.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...366AE3297DC59262215&&FORM=VDRVRV

Maybe the above link will show a pretty good amateur video comparing the
.45-70 Gov't. with 325-gr Hornady FTX (rubber-tipped cup&core) from a 16.5" barreled Marlin, probably a Hornady factory load.
to the long-barreled .300 WinMag with 150-gr and 180-gr W-W factory loads (180-gr soft point cup&cores).
Impact media:
Bone-in, skin-on pork shoulders,
water jugs,
and steel gongs.

Tester's SWAG, as expected, was that the .45-70 wins within 200 yards,
.300 WinMag wins beyond 200 yards.

I conclude that the .458 WinMag beats all.

The .45-70 versus 16-pound bowling ball at Kentucky Ballistics popped up next:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...2215A366AE3297DC59262215&FORM=VDRVRV

305-grain brass Lehigh Defense Superpenetrator at +2300 fps from a Henry lever action.
Underwood Ammo claims 2350 fps, 3740 ft-lbs KE, with 305-grain .45-70 Gov't +P, a commercial "factory load."
Ho ho ho.

Sir Larry,

Does your Swedish 350-gr CPS looks like the old ones from Wyoming ?
First picture is from an old MidwayUSA ad where they no longer stock the bullet.





The elephant leg test (below) is a tough test medium, into bottom of feet and into leg bones and other tough tissues,
longitudinally up the leg.
Similar results to Doc M's test at MIB Laboratories (above).
BTW, the elephant legs are on dead elephants. Live ones won't stay still for the testing.



With the 350-gr TSX loaded to 3.440" COL in the .458 WM+, following in Sir Bob's footsteps,
I used 81.0 grains of H4198 in Hornady brass with F215 primer
to get 2806 fps MV from a 25"-long Shilen barrel on a CZ 550 Magnum named Bobbarrella.
That was 2788 fps at 5 yards, correcting for BC = 0.271.
3 bullet holes touching at 50 yards.

Prior to that, 72.0 grains of H4198 with 350-gr Hornady RNSN at COL of 3.165"
(W-W brass, F215 primer)
gave 2526 fps MV from a 24-7/8"-long CZ barrel on a Pre-'64 M70
named Chimera WinCZechster.

I bet the 350-grain CPS would do very well at 2500 to 2800 fps in a .458 WM.
Probably as accurate as any 350-grain bullet to be found.

The Good, the Bad, and the Fugly, continued:

And then came the cheap, to join the good, the bad and the fugly:

My Bo Peep is on a 1987 vintage .375 Wby MkX, my Oldest Fugly, stocked myself with Brown Precision blank,
painted with black Krylon, over bare fiberglass and roughed up epoxy at grip panels only.
Moving Bo Peep from the aluminum Weaver base on Oldest Fugly
to the steel Weaver base on Old Fugly,
might be considered to be for The Good.
But there is some of The Bad about it.
I will have to melt the epoxy off the rear base to remove those 8x40 screws
and get the parts to the Machinist Gunsmith.
Ah well, whatever it takes for The Fugly.

Might as well sand off a little fiberglass to clear the right rear bridge receiver sight base holes,
and rob a Lyman off another MkX.
More latitude for sight adjustment.
And fuglier too !

A screw could also be put into the stock to block the side safety from movement rearward to safe.
A little more fugly.
Fugly is in the details.

A screw through the bottom rear of the floor plate could also be put in to lock the floorplate, secure as Fort Knox.
It has never popped open in recoil,
but fugly is as fugly does the details.

I really do appreciate the Shoemaker Shinemaker Picatinny.
It will come in handy if a Kodiak bear presses his nose to my tent on a moonless night, again.

A Mauser .375 H&H drop magazine hanging out below the current stock would be the crowning touch.
The fuglier the better !
Phil Shoemaker had to add about a pound of lead to his Brown Precision stock to get his 21"-barreled rifle weight up to 9 pounds, IIRC.
I might not need to add lead.
I really don't want to chop my 23.6" barrel down to 21".
That might make it cuter, not fuglier.

Fugly is in the eye of the beholder. I think anybody that be-holding that rifle is well armed for anything. Thanks to Phil for leading the way to function over everything and thanks to Sir Ron for doing all of this work for all our benefits.

Sir Dennis,

Buy a donkey for the flowers you send to Old Fugly and to Sir Phil's Old Ugly.

Here is an interesting $15 torch I must try on Old Fugly, the Coast brand "Polysteel 250 Flashlight"
390 Lumens bright with a focusing white beam only,
runs 4 hrs at full blast on only three AAA batteries,
and survives the 100-ft drop test shown/shone in this half-minute video:

https://coastportland.com/pages/polysteel-100ft-drop-test

The polymer-framed Glock of flashlights.
For 30 bucks you can get the Polysteel 1000, really bright at 1000 lumens, but getting a little long in the torch.
Holy cow, might start fires with that !

https://coastportland.com/products/polysteel-1000









The SureFire E2L is heavy and dim by comparison,
with max output 45 lumens and runs for 14 hours on two lithium batteries (CR123A 3V).
More expensive all around.

The Polysteel 250 runtimes on its 3 settings::

390 lumens for 4 hours

175 lumens for 10 hr 45 min

57 lumens for 36 hours: This too beats the SureFire.

Sir Ron,
A research project for you in the archives: We have documented evidence of a 500 grain bullet from Old Ugly downing a big Alaska Moose at very extended yardage after the client had wounded it and the damage to the moose that was done by so landing of the missile. Would Footnote quite nicely the work you have done on TBI and H&H units when you find it. I don't trust my memory on the matter but know we had it in a thread in the past.

Sir Dennis,

Buy a donkey for your reminder of Phil Shoemaker's 400-yard big-bull-moose whack with Old Ugly!
He was backing up a client, as recalled in the 75th EDITION, 2021 GUN DIGEST.
It was a field trial. Phil wrote:

"... The late Jack Carter sent me one of his first boxes of 500-gr Bonded bullets, which I promptly loaded over the same powder charge."
(That refers to 70 grains of IMR-3031 used in the 21"-barreled Old Ugly: 2040 fps with 500-gr Hornady RNSN)

"That fall moose season, I had an opportunity to test one.
I was sitting on a small knoll with John Nash, a moose hunting client from Oregon,
one evening when an absolute massive, 74-inch bull moose stepped out of a stand of willows a half-mile away
and began ambling toward us.
The terrain was open tundra and there was nothing we could do but sit and wait.
There was a small pond about 400 yards from us and when the bull reached it, he stopped.
It was almost dark, there was no way to stalk closer, and we were afraid we would miss an opportunity of a lifetime.
John was shooting a .411 KDF and thought he could make the shot.
Lying prone and using my backpack for a rest, he held the cross hairs over the bull's whithers and fired.
I was watching through my binoculars and the bull never moved.
I saw a splash of water behind and apparently above the bull and called the shot high.
He held lower and shot again and this time I saw water splash in front of the bull.
His third and final shot again made a splash behind the bull, but appeared to have hit him.
John then told me his remaining ammo was back in camp and asked me to take the shot.
The bull appeared to have been hit and I agreed."

"With 500-grain bullets, I keep Old Ugly sighted in dead on at 100 yards.
My trajectory table, while not exact, is simple, quick and easy to remember and satisfactory for the large animals I am hunting:
1-foot drop at 200 yards,
3 feet at 300 yards
6 at 400
and 12 at 500.
Figuring the bull's body was a good 3-feet deep I held 4-feet high and fired.
The 1,800-pound bull gave a violent shudder .
We heard the bullet whack and he collapsed where he stood."

"Upon butchering, we found that two of John's bullets had struck low in the bull's chest,
but failed to expand and had done very little damage.
My single 500-grain Trophy Bonded bullet had taken out one rib going in,
completely removed the top of the animal's heart,
removed two ribs on the way out and was found under the hide on the offside.
It had expanded to over an inch in diameter and considering the distance,
its velocity had to have been down to somewhere around 1,100 fps. It was impressive performance."

I do not have the BC or know for sure the MV of Phil's Trophy Bonded "Bear Claw" Jack Carter original bullet.

For the 500-grain Woodleigh PPSN started off at 2150 fps MV, a similarly performing bullet for low velocity impacts:

0-yard TBPI = 2.00 H&H Units
100 yards: 1.81 H&H Units
200 yards: 1.63 H&H Units
300 yards: 1.47 H&H Units
400 yards: 1.32 H&H Units
500 yards: 1.19 H&H Units
600 yards: 1.08 H&H Units

300-gr/.375-caliber bullet at 2450 fps at whatever range has TBPI = 1.00 H&H Units.

500-gr/.458-cal bullet at 1100 fps has TBPI of 1.02 H&H Units of WHACK !

As always; great work and many thanks Sir. 👍🏼👍🏼

Welcome.
Guru Phil Shoemaker as he was equipped for above moose-whacking incident,
binoculars, backpack, and Old Ugly:



No doubt he was also equipped with tundra tennis shoes aka hipwaders.