Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

canuckistan,

It's about time you picked a Sir Name.
I recall your heavy cast bullet work with the .458 WinMag, from the anchor baby's website.
Your Knighthood is well and truly deserved.
Please give us a review of the heavy cast oad data for discussion.
Makes a great moose tenderizer, eh ?

So what is your Sir Name ?

ASKINS ON SAFARI in the GUNS magazine of January 1971 was about Col. Askins' Botswana Safari of 1970.
Col. Askins had a PH there named Walter Johnson, son of Wally Johnson.
Walter Johnson the Younger and Walter Johnson the Elder, if you will, Junior and Senior.

Askins wrote:

In talking over the double express vs the magazine rifle for the backup arm,
Walter Johnson said, "You never win an argument about either politics or rifles.
I always tell those double express boys that I will shoot them a rapid fire match,
They with the old two-barreler loaded and with those 2 extra cartridges between their fingers.
And me with four rounds in the Model 70. I'll get my shots off quickest and most accurately.
What I am looking for, actually, is a .458 that will hold not the customary 4 rounds but about six!"

I would like has my Sir Name. Sir Meplat
my 550 gr. large méplat cast out of wheel weight is 12 hardness
it expand beautifully in wet paper
I haven't take game with it but my hunting buddy
a moose at about 170 yards
moose was runny away quartering the bullet entered just ahead of the ham and existed in the front of the opposite front leg
it drop there at the shot
the load was with IMR 4198. if I remember 46 gr. velocity was 1680 average

my load is 65 gr. of 3031 and I get 2025 fps very accurate

Riflecrank

thank you accepting me in your ranks
its a honour

canuckistan

Now that is a cool looking bullet!

Arise Sir Meplat, and go tenderize a moose with that 550-gr WFNGC.
That is indeed a superb load you have concocted.
I might substitute Hodgdon Benchmark for your IMR-3031, same charge, and expect very similar results.
IMR-3031 might be the old classic benchmark powder for the .458 WinMag, but there are so many more choices nowadays.
Sir Russ has had great results with Hodgdon Benchmark (ADI same-same) with his 550-gr Woodleigh.

That is remarkable to see the recovered bullet beautifully mushroomed with gas check engraved and holding tight.
Good job applying those !
Was it recovered from game or artificial media ?

Paper-patched 550-grain 45-cals at about 1400 fps, with more aerodynamic noses, were the zenith of 1000-yard, Creedmoor-type contests in the 1870s.
But that wide FN will smack game better at closer ranges, especially when started out at over 2000 fps.

Saint Bagwell's 480-grain FN plain base at 1300 fps had a smaller meplat and worked wonders, whether it expanded or not, from his .45-70 out to 500 yards.
And the Lottites think the .458 WinMag bullets just tickle the game gently ?

I have a Baikal/Remington/Spartan .45-70 double rifle with jackscrew muzzle regulation.
One of these days I will get it regulated for the Saint Bagwell ballistics,
assuming the groove diameter and twist are OK.
I need to check that.
Deer season is coming next weekend for my .458 WinMag however ...

the mushroom bullet was recovered from wet paper
the wet paper was at 200 yards
yes next summer I will try these new powder, at 74 wee seem to stick to old ways
by the way this bullet feed good in my model 70
I had a Sako brown bear in 450 Rigby and it did not but almost so in this rifle I shot the saeco 245 grainer
it looks like the chamber of the 458 love bore riding bullet
in the 1980 I had a Winchester Model 70 push feed that

cloverleaf the RCBS 400 gr. with 59 gr. of 3031
this rifle had a 22 inch barrel and to me was better balanced than my present 24

thank you for accepting me in your ranks of knights

canuckistan

Deer season is coming next weekend for my .458 WinMag however ...


[/quote]

Sir Ron,

My Ruger #1 in .458 was deer hunting yesterday, and perhaps again later today. I was in on the "new" logging trail (4th trip) and found some fresh tracks of smaller deer, but huge tracks of a buck... and they were fresh! I'd guesstimate he'd go over 300 lbs easily. But being alone, I didn't stay to last light as the potential of getting a huge buck out in darkness wouldn't be a wise move - alone.

The deer load is the one you suggested: 65 grains of AA5744. MV isn't as high at 2610 fps as you were getting from your Ruger at 2725 fps, but still plenty to 200 yards for adequate trajectory. Did you see the pic of that load on my recent blog? 0.45" for three at 50. It'd zeroed for 150 yards.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Sir Meplat, buy a donkey for these details:


Sir Meplat, your latest post shows the honor was long over due.

Sir Bob's .458 WinMag target from his blog installment that happened while I was in Paris:

"... using 65 grains of AA5744, without any scope adjustments, (Nikon 2 – 7 x 32mm) set at 4.75X, and voila!"



"The pic says it all! 3 into 0.45″ (measured center to center). At a corrected to MV of 2610 fps/ 3781 ft-lbs.
This will be my hunting load with the 250gr MonoFlex for the rest of the fall season! In fact to the end of 2021.
I’ll load up another 10 or so for bear, deer or wolf.

Here’s the data on that load:

BC = .175

SD = .170

MV = 2610 fps/ 3781 ft-lbs. Recoil = 23 ft-lbs from my .458 Win Mag rifle.

Environment: +1200 ft; 42*F/ +5*C; RH @ 58%

Zero @ 150 yards

50 = 2363 fps/ 3099 ft-lbs/ +0.68″

100= 2130 fps/ 2519 ft-lbs/ +1.28″

150= 1911 fps/ 2027 ft-lbs/ +0.01″

200= 1707 fps/ 1618 ft-lbs/ -3.65″

250= 1521 fps/ 1284 ft-lbs/ -10.3″ (adequate for up to an approximate 800 lb soft-skinned animal with a hit to the vitals)

Hornady claims this 250gr will expand down to 1400 fps, so we’re good to 275 yds for critters that might bite! So, it looks like my .458 could qualify as a varmint rifle after all!

It could be pushed out the muzzle of the 24″ barrel at 3000 fps/5000 ft-lbs, but I’ll use ’em for the critters mentioned so no need for anything like 3000 fps…. but just maybe… I might give that a try anyway as “a scientific research” project!

MV @ 3000 fps/4995 ft-lbs/ Recoil = 36 ft-lbs from my rifle at 10.5 lbs ready with Mag-na-ports.

*All matters considered, the 250gr at 2610 fps is the better load for my purpose in a light bullet load for smaller game to 250 yards or so. The same MV ballistics could be attained from a typical .35 Whelen, but a 250gr in .358″ is longer and thinner, therefore with a much higher BC that translates to longer effective ranges – with significantly greater recoil! There’s no pretence here in trying to make a .458 WM 250gr load into a .35 Whelen but, rather, to show its utility for most game that I hunt at practical ranges than thought “normal” for a Big Bore .458 WM.

In a discussion of this on the 24hr campfire forum, one poster said he uses the 250gr MonoFlex at 2000 fps from his 22″ M70 in .458 WM for deer in the Northeast! “Devastating” of deer was how he described that experience."

That would be Sir Bulkie.

In terms of Hornady’s manual for that bullet, recoil would be about 29 ft-lbs from an 1895 Marlin load at 2500 fps (and as mentioned, the .458 Win Mag load at 2610 fps is 23 ft-lbs recoil in my #1 Ruger) and 31 ft-lbs for the 250gr Barnes’ load at 2609 fps for the 250gr TSX FN from an 1895 Marlin in .45-70.

The real point of this is, again, to show the .458 Win Mag’s adaptability. It can quite easily be handloaded to match ballistics of a BP front loader, a Marlin in .45-70, or even do most of the work of a 6.5 Creedmoor or 7-08 Rem. But the 250gr MonoFlex load in the Ruger would be relatively slow in recoil – like a push of 13 fps, about identical to the 6.5 and 7mm.

At this point I’d also like to acknowledge a longtime friend: Dan Schindler of Paragon School of Shooting. We’ve corresponded over the years since I’ve been a blog writer. Some of that correspondence has been intimate, some casual, and some instructional both ways. Over a decade ago, Dan asked my opinion on a .458 Win Mag load he intended to use on a black bear hunt in Alaska. I told him I didn’t think a 265gr Cutting Edge bullet was the best choice when heavier bullets were available and, in my opinion, would do a better job. With that 265gr CE bullet leaving the muzzle of his .458 at little more than my load of the 250gr MonoFlex, he killed a good size black bear with one shot at 90 yards! I did the math, and congratulated him! He was right in his choice to minimise recoil and at the same time achieve his goal with plenty to spare from the “great” .458 Winchester Magnum.

I’m still learning – though being the father of a son who is a grandfather himself!"

Sir Bob, as much as you hate to admit it, that makes you a Great Grand Father.
In other words, an old dog still learning new tricks, eh?

"Of course, I understand that not everyone likes, or even wishes, to carry a rifle of two extra pounds. Yet, it’s quite extraordinary what those insignificant couple of pounds can do. With field experience of only one season of hunting in challenging conditions they can transform our habitual attitudes, physical balance and strength to that of well conditioned outdoors men! I’m not kidding!

In just three day trips to my hunting grounds on Crown Land in the Haliburton Highlands – in consideration of minimal activity due to the Covid crisis and four months of a debilitating arthritic attack over last winter – and in addition to recently spending time away with our family in New Brunswick, where I got a good workout with my son in tramping through prime deer country, I progressed from a somewhat weak and stumbling 85 year old to a strong, well balanced hunter like I was at 65! And I consciously chose to use my 10.5 lb Ruger No.1 in .458 Win for that transformation! My 9.3 x 62 is a mere 7.7 lbs and ready with handloads, but I took the heavier rifle. The terrain was a newly logged out area with debris, mud, rocks, branches, tree tops and steep climbs everywhere! That first trip was with some trepidation as to where to place my feet without stumbling… The last trip was given to toting the 10.5 lb rifle (ready to shoot) in my right hand, gripped just forward of the action for perfect balance with one in the chamber and two in a stock holder. I could swing that rifle with one hand wherever and whenever needed to miss entanglement with branches, ledges, etc. Not boasting, just facts! And I intend, by God’s grace, to keep at it til the end of hunting seasons."

Further details and illustrations here:
http://www.bigbores.ca/

Sir Bob's AA-5744 load was shot at 42 degrees F.
I shot basically same load at 67 degrees F, also in a Ruger No. 1.
Our results in past have been in good agreement, uniformly.
His Magna-ported barrel only loses a few fps versus my non-ported barrel of same Ruger make and length.
He got 2610 fps and I got 2725 fps with same charge of 65 grains AA-5744 under the 250-gr Monoflex.
This suggests that AA-5744 might be pretty temperature sensitive.
We both got good accuracy with that load.

Converting 0.45" for three shots at 50 yards to MOA:

0.45" X 2 X (1 MOA/1.047"@100yards) = 0.86 MOA

I used a higher powered scope (9X) and got 0.63 MOA.

The load is a good one for large varmints and deer, speaking of which, the view from my tripod yesterday, right before sundown:



After a while, I whistled at that deer a few times, then barked like a dog (Hillary Clinton campaign like), then tried to cackle like Kamikaze Harris.
Nothing happened except the deer looked around curiously.
Then I tried some blowing and snorting sounds and it ambled off, nose to ground.
That is a half-mile long cornfield recently harvested, with lots of broken up cob corn on the ground.

Walking out, I saw the moon is a waxing crescent, it will be gibbous next weekend, and I will be giddy.

Oops.
Forgot about lot-to-lot variation possibility with AA-5744.

25-degree-F temperature difference might very easily produce a 50 fps change in velocity.
That was routinely expected with the old IMR powders.
Another 50 fps or more difference could easily come from a different lot of powder.

Just adjust the powder charge to desired velocity.
Sir Bob is at a desired MV.
I too am at a desired MV with the same charge of powder and same bullet.
Circa 2610 fps to 2725 fps seems to be the accuracy node in a fat-barreled Ruger No. 1
with 250-grain Monoflex and AA-5744.
Yep, that is on the low end of pressure and velocity possible in the mighty .458 WinMag.

Here is the PG-rated version with blood trail cropped out, just as the deer fell after a 33-yard stagger:



The R-rated zoom-out shows a blood trail that a blind man could follow:



The randy buck was chasing a tiny little doe.
I figured he was a pedophile, so I shot him at a range of 144 yards, from a tripod where my muzzle was about 5 yards above ground:



I used a Nikon laser rangefinder after he was down.

Here is the start of the blood trail, and he can be seen 33 yards away, where he fell:



Here is another photo distortion, his outside spread on the rack is only 16.25", but his body size was impressive:



Local genetics favor basket racks. The buck weighed somewhere between 250 lbs and 300 lbs on the hoof.

Here is the entrance wound, and there was a loud "WHACK" returned from the hit:





Rolled over, exit wound is on left side, two ribs shattered by bullet exit:



Two proximal, upper ribs were destroyed on entrance near base of neck,
and between the broken ribs on both sides was a broken heart, with front half of both atria missing:

Rifle used was Alderella (aka The Knik Knocker), a Ruger MK II with 25" Shilen barrel, and I left the muzzle brake on it.
Same KDF brake can be used on Bobbarella the CZ .458 WinMag
as well as Old Fugly the Whitworth .458 Lott, on which it was originally fitted to barrel, not a "slim-line" brake.









Ammo, excellent factory stuff:



Pulled bullet:



One shot on buck.
From the tripod, off ground, the brake is not so loud.
While walking out, I shot at a running coyote at about 200 yards, same day, missed, but it did seem to light his afterburners.
Bounce-back from ground makes noise worse to shooter's ear.
I have a hard time remembering ear plugs when a big buck comes running towards me, or a coyote surprises me and itself.
Recoil is barely perceptible with the brake, unlike the noise, of course.

I may not have "hunted" coyote with a .458 WinMag, but at least I have shot at one.
A bona fide coyote hunt is needed for the .458 WinMag.

He done leaked out fast.

Sir Ron;

Excellent report with detailed photos; thanks and congratulations!

I got out for deer three half-days in the newly logged-out area. Increased sign of deer activity. It was good to see wildlife moving back into an area that experienced two years of logging operations. On the last day (Wednesday, Nov. 10), there were fresh moose tracks of a bull, cow and calf. I fully expected to see them "in there", but didn't, though may have heard them just beyond a hill, out of sight. Of course, moose season was over two weeks prior, and I didn't have a licence anyway. Still two weeks remain for bear, and coyote and wolf till the end of March, 2022. I plan to go back to that same area for some calling. That also can work for bears. Anyway, it gets me out there.

All I have now for such hunting is my Ruger #1 in .458 Win with that deer load. That's plenty. My 9.3 x 62 is in "the shop" for a "slim-line" muzzle break. It won't be ready for 6 - 8 weeks. By then I'll be thinking spring bear hunting!

You "done good" with that load of the 400g Barnes TSX from Buffalo Bore! I'm surprised that buck made 30 yards after a hit like that! Again, congrats!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Nice Buck to add to the conquests of the magnificent 458 WM! Results are as expected from the Round Table group, terrific!

Pretty Nice, Sir Ron! Great Shot placement!

Great pics, and report!

Very understandable, having that 458 pointing at him,
Causing that Heart Attack and all!