Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

The .458 WM+ with 1:10" twist might be called the .458 WM+T, "T" for Twister.

Here are the throat gages I used to assess the perfect job of hand-reaming the throat of the .458 B&M into a .458 BMW:



IIRC, Jack Lott hand-reamed those SAAMI .458 WinMags into his wildcat .458 Lott,
blending the 2.800"-brass acceptance into the residual SAAMI .458 WinMag throat.

The short-boxed .458 B&M works a 350-grain TSX through the mag box, but cannot handle the heavier TSX bullets except as a single-loader:



Allow it to go to 3.340" COL and it will shoot like Sir Jerry's and Sir Bob's .458 WM+ at 3.600": 450-grainers at +2400 fps MV:



Yes, and we do 500-grainers at +2300 fps and 400-grainers at +2500 fps, no sweat.

New territory, with subsonics and suppressors and "King of Two Mile Also Ran" supersonic VLD loads:



Remember that 500-gr TSX bullets can be found with BOL of 1.650" to 1.670".
They would make serviceable 1000-yard plinkers for beginning practice for King of Two Mile.

I am glad you weathered the storms/tornadoes well. Many sad situations from those tornadoes.
As mentioned before your work on the 458 Winchester rekindled my interest in the cartridge and the caliber itself.
So, I dug out some factory loads that I have on hand. As we all know factory advertised velocities and actual can be a big difference.

Anyways reading from their box advertising:

Federal Premium 400 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claw = 2250 fps
These are the newer shiny silver ones. I have some older ones, not listed on the box; but I think they use to be a claimed 2300 fps.

Remington Safari Grade with 450 grain Swift A-Frame = 2150 fps
These are probably 15+ years old.

Hornady SuperPerformance 500 grain DGX Bonded = 2140 fps
These came with a used rifle that I bought recently.

458 Lott, Hornady 500 grain DGX = 2300 fps
These are not listed as the Bonded nor as SuperPerformance.

My most interest in the 458 Winchester and Lott are with 400 & 450 grain bullets. But, also having a 45-70 and a son that really likes hiking with his 45-70. I decided to check out some of the lighter copper flat points for performance equal to or surpassing slightly the 420 / 460 grain hard casts, with maybe a little less recoil. I also wanted 400 grain monolithics for the 458’s. What I came up with is a compromise due to availability, North Fork 350 grain Cup Point Expanding Solids and Lehigh 380 grain copper flat points.
From Michael’s testing and internet conversations with him, the 350 grain North Fork Cup Point may be plenty good for my intended use.
I have a few Barnes 450 grain TSX. Visually it reminds me of the .416 350 TSX which I really like. My rifles in the Lott have magazines long enough that case trimming is not required.

It was also suggested to me to try the Hammer Bullets, Shock Hammer 402 grain for the 458’s. This appears to be an interesting bullet for a SAAMI Winchester & Lott.
A shoulder repair has put progress on hold for a bit.

I too am very glad that Sir Ron is OK. I though that later today I'd give him a call but since he appears safe and sound, and is continuing his prodigious .458-cal pioneering work, I'll just say "Hi" to him and a prayer for his continued protection.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

I agree!

Many of US are glad to see he's up and Running!

Hope all is Well!

Better to laugh than to cry about it.
So, to Sir Bob, Sir Tony, and Sir Larry:



The .458 Winchester Magnum is to the .458 Lott as a tornado is to a trailer park.

Sir Bob's blog reveals that the "newer" version of the Barnes 600-gr/.458-cal RNSN is different from the "Original."
It is about 0.1" longer ! BOL ~1.650", comes with a cannelure, and a different ogive and less lead exposed at nose.
It has a base like a Barnes Buster.



Should be very interesting at 3.8" COL in Sir Bob's Ruger No. 1 .458 WM+.

A throw back to the cast bullet question.

What are the powder coating advantages over the more traditional / old fashion bullet lube method ?
I have a quantity of unlubed .458, 460 grain cast checked hard cast and same for revolver cartridges.

I know the powder coat is way prettier for the fashion conscious.
Is friction is reduced ?

I have not much experience on the subject
but reading some on it there is one thing to watch when buying this powder is to buy one that is not abrasive and that you have to undersize the bullet to compensate for the coating

Powder coating done well creates a slick surface on the bullet that also will survive the trip up the barrel very well. There are no drawbacks to the process. On sizing, cast bullets should be 1 or 2 thousands over bore diameter and you can run the bullet after coating through a Lee Sizer die if you wish. Since this is a 458Win Mag thread, you will find most off the shelf molds are .458 or .459 sized so the Powder coating helps get the bullet up to the .460 / .461 that you really want anyway. Of course you order custom molds in the proper diameter as well.
Fear not. Coat away.

9ne advantage to.powder coating us no smoke from the lube when you shoot them

Yep, agree on being sure that is non-abrasive.

Thanks for the info. The rifle bullets are Cast Performance gas check .458. Though I have not confirmed the actual size.
This seems to be the way to go.

The smoke reduction as jwp475 mentioned, would be particularly welcomed with the bigger bore revolvers.

The Cast Performance bullets sold retail are grooved, Gas checked, un-lubed and probably .458 or .459 so they are just begging for a coat or two of Powder coating. Bring them up a couple of thousands and don't worry about sizing them. Coat and shoot.

Sir Ron,
This Has me all Shook up!
I'll buy a Donkey! LOL!!!

Sir Ron,
This Has me all Shook up!
I'll buy a Donkey! LOL!!!
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Laughing my arse off !!!

Comments from The Square Table about powder-coat painting of cast bullets are appreciated.
Collective Sirs: Buy a donkey.
The PC paint prevents lead exposure in bullet handling, but wash your hands anyway !
It allows us to hang the grease grooves out in the .458 WM throat without the mess of exposed grease.
Grease may be necessary to keep BP fouling soft, but not so with smokeless.
Even BPCR loads may use PC-painted bullets, as long as the grease is used too !

Proof of water is proof of life for concept of .458 BMW surrogacy for .458 WM+ fast-twist testing:
The .458 B&M was supposed to have a case length of 2.295" as originally conceived but B&M had to shorten it to 2.250" max,
due to problems getting bullets to fit in the magazine.
The .458 Lott suffers from same problem with some rifles.
So the .458 BMW is trimmed to 2.240" brass length per standard safety practices, and it is a tiny bit under 95 grains H20 gross.
The .458 WM+ is easily allowed to go to 2.505" max brass, trim to 2.500", and it is thus a tiny bit over 95 grains of H20.



Comparing the .458 WM R-P brass to Quality Cartridge .458 B&M brass, out of 10 carts, 3 were unusually heavy and of lesser capacity.
So three pieces of brass made from R-P brass for .300 RUM were added in to make 10 pieces of similar weight, length and capacity.
Quality Cartridge brass for the .458 B&M is most likely made from blank basic RUM brass from R-P:



Another possibility with 1:10" twist in a .458 WM+: Sabot loads with .358-cal. rifle bullets (not just .357-cal. pistol bullets) in .45-cal sabot.

Alrighty, copy that Elvis rendition, “Baie Dankie”.
The powder coat information / material search shall get serious tomorrow. I think, basic black is the color preference. It just matches most any outfit, perhaps an occasional red for special events.

So’s, these CZ’s that we have, 458 Lott / CAL 458 WIN. MAG. are apparently the standard 458 Winchester that were rechambered to Lott here in the state. This one definitely has a Deep-Throat throat. Obvious to anyone that has stayed in a Holiday Inn. Watergate Hotel not required.
I assume these cavernous, projectile hungry beasts have a standard twist of 1-14” ?
It appears, the Barnes 450 grain TSX has to be seated at the 3rd groove to function in the magazine. Otherwise, that bullet with full length, once fired brass would fit with about half of the bottom of the solid shank in the brass.

The MRC Lott is definitely restricted to front groove seating with the 450 TSX, due to magazine length. And appears to have the standard Lott throat.



Comments from The Square Table about powder-coat painting of cast bullets are appreciated.
Collective Sirs: Buy a donkey.
The PC paint prevents lead exposure in bullet handling, but wash your hands anyway !
It allows us to hang the grease grooves out in the .458 WM throat without the mess of exposed grease.
Grease may be necessary to keep BP fouling soft, but not so with smokeless.
Even BPCR loads may use PC-painted bullets, as long as the grease is used too !

Proof of water is proof of life for concept of .458 BMW surrogacy for .458 WM+ fast-twist testing:
The .458 B&M was supposed to have a case length of 2.295" as originally conceived but B&M had to shorten it to 2.250" max,
due to problems getting bullets to fit in the magazine.
The .458 Lott suffers from same problem with some rifles.
So the .458 BMW is trimmed to 2.240" brass length per standard safety practices, and it is a tiny bit under 95 grains H20 gross.
The .458 WM+ is easily allowed to go to 2.505" max brass, trim to 2.500", and it is thus a tiny bit over 95 grains of H20.

quote: ldmay375

Alrighty, copy that Elvis rendition, “Baie Dankie”.
The powder coat information / material search shall get serious tomorrow. I think, basic black is the color preference. It just matches most any outfit, perhaps an occasional red for special events.

Best buys are Harbor Freight Red, and Eastwood Ford Light Blue, with the latter being my favorite.
I tried Harbor Freight Black and it just did not give good coverage/adherence.
Maybe you can find a more expensive black color that works. Let us know if you do, please, Sir Larry.

So’s, these CZ’s that we have, 458 Lott / CAL 458 WIN. MAG. are apparently the standard 458 Winchester that were rechambered to Lott here in the state. This one definitely has a Deep-Throat throat. Obvious to anyone that has stayed in a Holiday Inn. Watergate Hotel not required.
I assume these cavernous, projectile hungry beasts have a standard twist of 1-14” ?

Yes, 1:14" twist.
Initially, CIP homologated the .458 Lott with the same throat as the .458 WinMag tacked onto the end of the longer chamber accepting 2.8" brass.
Early CZ .458 Lotts were probably re-chambered with that reamer, so are actually longer than can possibly be fully "Long-COL" utilized in a 3.8" mag box.
They are not the .458 Lott Like Jack Built, which can only be loaded to same length as the SAAMI .458 WinMag.
CIP subsequently revised their .458 Lott chamber to match the SAAMI .458 Lott with short and tight throat.

It appears, the Barnes 450 grain TSX has to be seated at the 3rd groove to function in the magazine. Otherwise, that bullet with full length, once fired brass would fit with about half of the bottom of the solid shank in the brass.

True, for a 3.6" magazine length function with the .458 WM+. The 500-gr and 450-gr TSX bullets of same date of manufacture have the same nose shape and grooves down to the 4th groove on the 450-grainer being the last one. The 500-grainer has a 5th groove, and the base portion lengths on both bullets differ.
If you have a 3.8" magazine length or a Ruger No. 1, the .SAAMI .458 WM chamber will accept the 500-grainer in the 5th groove for 3.78" COL.
At that length it is "right near" or actually touching the rifling lands where they begin to stand proud near front end of leade.
You will not be able to chamber it in a SAAMI .458 Lott, same for the current CIP .458 Lott.

The MRC Lott is definitely restricted to front groove seating with the 450 TSX, due to magazine length. And appears to have the standard Lott throat.

So your SAAMI-chambered .458 Lott by MRC has a mag box length of +3.600", probably 3.62" to 3.64" like most M70 Winchesters for H&H cartridges.
Thus you are able to exceed the 3.600" SAAMI COL for the .458 Lott.
Fair is fair, so we can exceed the 3.340" SAAMI COL with the .458 WM+ in the same rifle action.
The .458 WM+ is the tornado. The SAAMI .458 Lott is the trailer park.

I will say kind words to the Super Express 458 Winchester.
Yep, I think this MRC Lott is a touch longer than at least one M70 stainless 375 H&H that I have.


Regaining my composure here. ROTFL, at the eloquence of prose below.

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The .458 WM+ is the tornado. The SAAMI .458 Lott is the trailer park.

Buy a donkey for the literary criticism, Sir Larry.

I am surprised at not getting any ribbing for the "Eurolux" scope on the .458 BMW research mule.
It makes some nice weight addition anyway. If it goes TU, there are both heavier and lighter options,
either way probably more durable.




The .458 BMW in Tupperware stock with scope bases and open sights weighs 7-1/4 pounds, 7#4oz.
In the 2 ounces lighter Ultimate Shadow stock it weighs 7-1/8 pounds, 7#2oz.







I like the Tupperware best, having always had outstanding accuracy with such stocks, even on kickers like .375 WBY and .458 WM.
So let us call the .458 BMW a 7.25-pounder.
Light scope & rings option (12 ounces) makes it 8.0 pounds flat, without ammo.
Heavy scope and rings option (2.5 pounds, 40 ounces) makes it 9.75 pounds.
Adding ammo and a slip-on pad will add another 12 ounces, so 8.75 pounds or 10.5 pounds field ready.
Adding a suppressor will add another pound and turn a 19.75" barrel into a 27.5" length from breech to muzzle !
A suppressed 20"-barreled .458 WM+ would have a 28" effective barrel length and weigh close to 12 pounds, or more,
depending on barrel contour. OH MY !

Until the .458 WM+ is fitted with suppressor, I am following Sir Bob's lead with the Walker Razors
and keeping an ear to the ground for other auditory protection for proper research safety:



Above demonstrates Democrat technique of Covid masking: Nostrils exposed.

Anyone with a SAAMI .458 Lott or wildcat/proprietary .458 B&M
who wants to make it more powerful and versatile with a greater range of bullets and powders
may feel free to send it to me and I will lovingly re-throat it by hand as apprentice to my supervising local FFL.
I'm just trying to help with his backlog.