Home Forums Birds & Dogs Turkey Hunting TSS facts verses fiction

Getting run over by a big MAC pulling a load of pulp wood versus getting tagged by 5 soccer moms driving sub compacts is a better analogy

As you stated foot pounds of energy with a lead #4 pellet is alot greater...not sure how they came up.with "energy density" ?

If it comes down to one pellet killing the turkey my money is riding on a #4 copper plated lesd

One thing TSS offers for sure is alot more shot to pick out of the meat should your aim get off....

Some guys claim total penetration with TSS....guys with cracked teeth will argue differently.

Ps...I'm shooting a 2 oz load of #4s.

Density is a lot like BC....neither mean much with a shotgun pellet.

I've killed about a dozen turkeys with TSS #9s, and watched buddies shoot about that many more. Ranges from 15 to over 60 yards....all birds dropped at the shot, none ran off. A few things, other than the density, help the federal loads.

The flight control wad doesn't separate from the shot, until about the 20-25 yard mark. Out to that point, it is basically a slug....or, as my hunting buddy says, "it's like you have a 25 yard barrel, on your gun". This helps to account for those insanely dense 40 yard patterns, along with the enormous pellet count. Also, a good argument for a double barrel gun.....one barrel with TSS and one with a more open choke and nickel #5s, for closer shots. It's too easy to miss those head shots, when the shot is still in the wad!

The other thing is the small diameter of the pellets. Less resistance while in flight, and when going through the bird. I have not seen any feather draw, while cleaning the birds, and most pellets, in the body, exit. The crop and the neck will catch them, due to the "rubber like" material. But, they typically exit through the body, even at extended ranges. Plus the hardness of tungsten keeps the shot from deforming.....results in better patterns, more broken bones, along with more exit holes.

The only drawback, that I've found, is the few pellets that stay in the meat are a real danger to your teeth!

Andy3

Right—-penetration means nothing with a shotgun pellet. 🤣
And increased pellets on target are a waste.
Hilarious!!!!!

After a certain point....

Ps...if you're going to argue a point don't just copy and paste from the TSS gospel handbook.

What about the pellets you miss and swallow...

We've all all heard the saying "he's got lead in his azz" what do you call the guy with TSS in his azz ?

My experience patterning the Federal shells with the fight control wad is they patterned good but they sometimes steer the pattern off target.

The "enormous pellet count" of tss is thanks to the enourmos amount of number #9 pellets in the shell....

#9 pellets are so small they're probably putting holes in the paper that the human eye cant see.

I tried to look at a number 9 pellet once and I had to put on my readers just to see it.

I googled "energy density" and I'm wondering what super duper shotgun physicist tied that term to a shot pellet.

Well, we all have our preferences, so let's follow this logic. Prefer 167-ish pellets in the pattern with lots of energy? Fine. Take a look:


Chilled lead #4 1 1/4 oz (167 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 582
Energy (ft/lbs): 2.45
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 184.8
Gel Penetration: 1.72 inches



TSS #7.5 7/8 oz (187 pellets)

@ 60 yards:

Final Vel: 696
Energy (ft/lbs): 2.20
Energy Density (ft / lbs /sq in): 310.2
Gel Penetration: 2.67 inches

OR (1.67in. at 96 YARDS)


There's your MAC truck load, except you extended the lethal range from 60 to 96 yards, picked up 11% more pellets, you have much less recoil, and you might notice, you can do this out of a 20 or even a 28 gauge now

What do you call the guy with tss in his ass? Probably ded.

TSS isn’t the only thing dense around here.

Weak…

PS: Especially when the quote was facts accepted by the industry. And verifiable on the periodic table. Laughing again…😂

I don't know many turkeys killed with #4 lead shot out of a 410 at 40 yards or so but I know of several birds killed with TSS #9s and #9.5s. I think that is where the TSS really come into play. With a 3.5" 12ga you can kill a turkey at 40 yards with about any choke and any shot size. What TSS shot have done is extended the range of 20 gauges and made 28ga and 410s a viable turkey gun. I watched 6 gobblers from 8 yards to 42 yards last year taken with 410s you better be spot on close up because its super tight.

"96 yards"...if a feller shoots turkeys that far he needs his head examined.
Sad thing is someone will read that and believe they can shoot turkeys that far.

Rick I'd still like to know the mathematical equation for figuring energy density ?
.

And there you go! I was handloading TSS long before I was buying it in factory ammo. Turkeys, ducks, geese - it doesn’t matter, the results speak for themselves. Once you make the switch, you’ll never go back.

Give it up… you were showed the door for a second time…😂

I can’t explain the mathematical equation. Several years ago a buddy was at the house. He came over to pattern his gun. We got into the debate of my 20 gauge load of TSS vs his 12 gauge Long Beard load. To be fair, he was shooting 6’s and I was shooting 8.5’s. We put up a piece of barn tin. I can’t remember if it was 40, 50 or 60 yards. His Long Beard dented the metal and about 50% of my TSS 8.5’s penetrated the metal.

Another reason I think the TSS kills more effectively is the density of the pattern. Even at 30 yards, #4’s leave some gaps in a target the size of a turkey head. #9 TSS covers the target in a spectacular fashion.

1] OK, let's roll with that "foot pounds of energy is a lot greater" POV and leave aside the counterarguments for now. In comparing lead to TSS as a basis for turkey hunting (not my application but ...), there are lots of other sizes of TSS. See above analysis with a #7.5 TSS load that walks all over the #4 lead load from an exterior ballistics POV.

2] I am not a turkey hunter, but the scenarios I have seen where turkeys are headshot with a shotgun leads me to believe those situations where "one pellet" makes "the" difference is pretty minimal (I am more than willing to be shown differently), and of course, can further be reduced by using a TSS shot charge with LOTS more pellets per charge weight.

3] Actually, in my experience, this is not true (again, I don't hunt turkeys). I find that TSS is typically a pass-through. Where I find pellets is in birds I shoot with steel/TSS duplex loads, and they are predictably steel pellets. Either way, pellets on teeth is not good no matter what material it is, and steel, and the various heavys are very hard.

4] Please don't make me show you what kind of a load I could make with a 2-oz charge of TSS!

4A]

2 oz of plated #4 lead shot ~ 273 pellets.

2 oz of #7.5 TSS ~ 427 pellets.

Or if you wanted ~ 270 pellets / charge you could shoot 1 1/4 oz of #7.5 TSS (267 pellets) instead of 2 oz #4 lead.

Even if we kept the fps equal at 1000 fps, the #4 load will penetrate gel to 2 inches to 36.7 yards, and the #7.5 TSS will do the same ... at 59.6 yards. SO already the TSS load is waxing the lead, even before I step that 1 1/4 TSS load to 1309 fps, and yes, I have the proofed load data for that load right in front of me ....

.... which kicks up the range to 74.6 yards.

No disrespect, but this couldn't be further from the truth. Density is exactly why steel<bismuth<lead<HW13<HW15<TSS, or why at 100 fps you'd much prefer to be hit by a ping pong ball than a golf ball.

Density lets you pack more/smaller or same#/heavier pellets into the same (or smaller) volume, and is why I can drop gauges and gun weight and have more lethality than a standard 12 shooting lead.
...

KPY is a shotshell ballistics program that calculates ballistics for 16 different types of shotgun pellet materials in 24 sizes.

It just incorporates the physics (density, sizes, weights, etc.) of TSS and most other shot types into its calculations.

You are free to doubt its accuracy, of course.

And now you see why I posted Tom Roster's chart.

This is way down the road and really not worth the time going through if you remain convinced that TSS is all smoke and mirrors, but JIC and/or for others that may be reading :

Yes, 96 yards is a ridiculous range. You will likely be pattern-limited well before that. Roster's data is good (It's mainly all we have, too) but it is waterfowl/steel-oriented. Still it is a good guide of the pattern densities we'd like to see to get multiple hits on species of known sizes to assure quick and sure lethality and avoid cripples. And dabbling in these waters will require you to pattern YOUR gun, which is anything but inexpensive with TSS!

That said, TSS tends to pattern tight ... and jaw-dropping shots are to be expected when your previous frame of reference is lead-shot performance, not to speak of steel. This comment is mine alone and draws upon 2 hunting seasons (one in progress) of steady use on flying birds ... with a 20 and 28 ga.

Seems to me turkey hunting would lend itself to some pretty unreal opportunities to make longer shots ... each situation limited by shooter skill and/or PROVEN ballistic performance at the patterning board.

I've heard the ping pong golf ball comparison many times....you'd think the tss guys could come up with a better comparison.
A golf ball and an ice pick would be closer

Judging from what you've said I take it you're a waterfowl hunter.?

Duck are ducks and turkeys are turkeys.

Turkeys...I've killed turkeys with 4x5x7 Hevi shot. Ducks and turkeys with Bismuth #4s.

Lead #4s, #5s, and #6s out of a 12 ga. 4# shot out of a 20.and a 12 ga. and #4 Bismuth and lead shot out of 2 vintage 10 gauges.

A turkey is harder to kill than a duck. You break a turkeys wing and he might run off at 35 mph. You knock him down with small shot and he might get up and run or fly off.

Chop a turkeys head off with an axe and he'll run around a while..

I talk with alot of guys all over the country most won't post their horror stories with TSS on the internet....they run the gambit "I knocked him down twice, three times and he got away"....to "my pattern was so small I blew a hole in him and had to chase him down and shoot him again".

Contrary to popular belief it doesn't take a zillion pellets to kill a turkey.

Until Winchester came out with the Shot Lock Technology we never had ammo that shot #4 pellets very good.

Then the turkey hunting stunt men came on the scene that think they're cool because they shot a turkey with a small guage like a .410....everybody doesn't think they are cool or that they're some super duper turkey hunter.

Hopefully the Game and Fish will come around and outlaw some of the crazy nonsense that is spoiling our sport...
Like gobbler decoys, hunting out of enclosed blinds and hunting turkeys with children's guns