Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles The rifle market sucks…

My son is 24. He owns a Winchester 88 308 pre 64, a Winchester 70 Featherweight 308 pre 64, and a Remington 760 Carbine in 308 made in the mid 60's. I might add even though he is an Iraq vet and still in the National Guard he does not own an AR. He says they just remind him of Work.

That's how I was too, for a long time. I had my "work" gun and my hunting guns.

At some point I realized my "work" guns were pretty good at being hunting guns too.

My .02. I'm 64 and have been interested in guns since I was old enough to know what they were. My first one was a 20ga shotgun and then a Marlin/Glenfield model 60, both from JC Penney. I still have them both and will keep them till the end. I bought a few more then got into pistols for awhile, then life happened (like divorce, etc) and I got out of guns for quite awhile. In the last several months I have bought two Vanguard II synthetics, a Thompson T/CR22, a Ruger AR and have a JP Sauer 100XT. All of these are decent quality rifles at a good price point. None of them are blue and wood, although I obviously have nothing against them. The reality is that to get the same rifle in blue or stainless with wood stocks costs a lot more and they won't shoot any better.

I looked at a Thompson ICON that was blued and wood and it was, to me, a beautiful rifle that was well made. It was a new one still hanging around on display and the bottom price I got them to was $800 plus tax. I bought the Sauer, which is (to me) just as well made for $525. I REALLY liked that Thompson but the more I thought about it, the less appealing it became. I don't buy rifles to sit in the safe and look pretty when I take them out. I want to USE them. I suppose that if I could hunt on private land where I could drive up to within a short walking distance of my permanent stand, carefully take my prized wood stock rifle out of the case, carefully walk to said stand, take a gun cloth to keep it wiped off and then carefully place it back into it's case when I was done, it would be fine. That's not my situation. I would grieve if I damage the beautiful rifle as I'm a little OCD about my stuff.

I prefer a plastic stock rifle that I can take hunting or on the range and not worry about if if I happen to scratch it along the way. While I would still take great care of it and not just throw it around, I would not grieve if I did happen to damage it like I would the beautiful ICON. The only other option for me on wood stock guns would be to buy one that has already been used hard and shows it since I would then not worry about another scratch. Trouble is, many of the ones that are cosmetically damaged are also functionally questionable.

All rifles have a place. People fussing and cussing because they can't seem to find a rack of rifles in their preferred flavor seems like them forcing their choices on others like they are accusing the gun manufacturers of. If you don't like what's being offered these days, then don't buy any. Search the classifieds on the many places on the net, lthe ocal gun stores, pawn shops and gun shows to find what you like. For me, I can enjoy the past while embracing what the current offerings are. I think that I made good choices in my pickings and I can take them anywhere I want without spending as much time worrying about scratching them as i do focusing on the fun at hand. They all will or should (except perhaps the .22) shoot minute of angle at 100 yds, and I paid way less than their wood counterparts.

If you would really like to see more guns made in "the old fashioned" manor, then why not regularly write and/or call the manufacturers and ask them. Go to the large shows or find events where the mfrs' reps are in attendance and personally tell them what you would like to see them make. They may listen, they may not, but at least you tried. In the meantime, let's not throw rocks at each other....or the manufacturers. As others have said, if they ain't selling them, they won't keep making them, at least not for long. Companies will make what sells and what they can make a boat load of money on.

Peace.

Its a double edged sword. On one hand you don't want to spend 1200 on a winchester featherweight. You also don't want to buy a plastic rifle for 300. The 300 plastic rifle will do all you need it to do but you'd like a wood stocked and blue metal rifle. My good friend and I have gone over this for years. We're in our 50s. The ruger Americans will work just fine. A few years ago the Remingtons and now Winchesters are over 1000 dollars. I'd love to buy a nice bolt action rifle but the prices are ridiculous. Just my opinion

This thread touches on all the things I’ve been thinking for a while.

I’ve emailed and called Ruger to bring back the Hawkeye. Had money in hand last year and was ready to buy a .204 but none were available.

I’ve emailed Kimber asking what was up. Last week in fact. “Everything you see in our website is still in current production”. Well, you sure can’t find any of it in gunbroker or gunsinternstionsl for sale. I also told them to do a “classic-esque” like like SAS referenced above. Limited numbers in special cartridges for the year. They says they’d pass it along…

At least Winchester still offers Featherweights and Super Grades and the old classics and I’m spending money on them.

I don’t want a dog knot on the end of my rifle.

I don’t want a rail.

I don’t want a tacti-cool scope on my 1885.

Teal touched on something I’ve often thought as well. Manufacturers can say “see, the market is demanding we bring this cheap entry level crap to sell, that is all they’re buying”. You’d think they’d realize it’s all that is selling because it is the only thing offered un 95% of stores. I’m just an engineer, not a marketing guy though. Maybe cheap crap is what the market will only support.

Look at what a classic stocked classic rifle sells for on gunbroker. Be it a .250 Savage, Roberts, Swedes, 7x57, .300 H&H, etc. if the rifle isn’t hideous, they sell for mega premiums. Release some of these classic styled rifles (84s, 70s, Hawkeyes) in these cartridges, wood/blued, let it be known they’re a limited production number, watch them sell. I think?

I’ll buy a rifle or do a year, sometimes several. I won’t be buying any entry level price point stuff. So either offer it to ne as new production, or I’m buying used.

This is the Golden Age of firearms availability, there are scads of very desirable old rifles in excellent condition, and there are copious amounts of high end rifles from the likes of Rigby, Westley Richards, etc. Artisans like Dorleac and Dorleac abound and thrive.

But...for those that want something for nothing I suppose pickings may be scarce.

They know the entry level synthetics are hogging the shelf space. And when you consider how cheap they are to produce with all the plastic parts and the Happy Meal grade stock, they're taking in money hand over fist. Which is why entry level synthetics will continue to dominate shelf space.

Wanting a new, quality, traditional rifle in the $750-$1200 price range is hardly expecting something for nothing. A walnut/blued Hawkeye or FWT or CDL or 550 isn't remotely in the same ballpark as a new Rigby or a bespoke rifle and you know it...

Doesn't matter what you want for cheap...if you want something you have to pay.

SAS, I think that you are the guy to change the game. I don't know if you have the resources to start a rifle company, but it sounds to me that maybe you are talking yourself into it?

I think it would be awesome if someone from the 'Fire put their shingle up in the rifle making business. Might even get some funding from crowd sourcing? I don't know how that all shakes out, but it seems like times are different than decades past. Might even find some good employees here, but who knows?

I still think it goes back to what I said earlier about how they can sell all they make of the “cheap” stuff, so there’s little to gain from continuing to offer stuff that’s not doing well in the market, especially if that would mean adding employees and/or equipment.

Some months ago, CZ announced a new line of guns, and also the discontinuation of a number of their rifles to stay within their production capacity. Clearly, they don’t want to add capacity to keep those models in their catalog. Perhaps sales are lagging, or like with the 550s, the cost is beginning to exceed what the market will bear. Firearms are definitely durable goods, and once a company is in the position of competing against the used market in their own products, the party’s over. Anyone old enough to have voted for Nixon has seen this happen over and over, including FN Mausers, pre-64 Winchesters, and Savage 99s, to mention a few. Younger/newer shooters don’t have the same perceptions of quality as the more “seasoned” ones do. They’re all about price, and performance, mostly price I think based on what I see at the public range near me. Cheap guns mean more money for ammo, and more cheap guns. With fewer quality arms being made, the price of existing ones will go up due to increased demand on fewer goods from those who still appreciate them. Markets evolve.

For 90% of rifle buyers $750 to 1200 isn't cheap. Which, again, you already know.

He does but he enjoys acting like a dick

I was just at Jay's sporting goods in Gaylord, MI over the weekend.
It is a pretty good sized store with a lot of guns.
However for bolt action rifles, there were no 243's, no 7mm 08's, no 25 06's, no 7mm mags, only one .270, one .280ai, three 308's, two 30 06's, and one 300 win mag.

Ofcourse, there were atleast 40+ rifles in 6.5 creedmoor, 6.5prc, and a surprising amount of weatherby 6.5 RPM's.

Obviously not nearly as many people are buying the cheap 6.5's or the tactical 6.5's, just not selling like the standard rifles are, atleast at that store.

I picked up that. 280ai, a kimber mountain ascent. I am not a big fan of the digital camo stock, but I love the way it fits me and have a sweet spot for kimber rifles.

One thing I've noticed from this thread that I can't understand, is how many "older" gentlemen refuse to take an $800 dollar woodstocked rifle into the woods. They don't want to scratch it up, but rifles were meant to be hunted with. $800-$1200 for a woodstocked rifle is really not an astronomical amount, but many of you here refuse to take something like that to the woods out of fear of hurting it, even though there are millions of other guns just like yours.

Imo there need to be more Kimber 84m and 84l type of rifles out there, with wood stocks and nice bluing as well as the Montana style rifles. And I'll pay $1500 to $2000 for it.

I don't know what a "dog knot" is, but I find the schnabled tip of the post-'64 Winchester 70 FWT stocks to be most attractive.

"One thing I've noticed from this thread that I can't understand, is how many "older" gentlemen refuse to take an $800 dollar woodstocked rifle into the woods. They don't want to scratch it up, but rifles were meant to be hunted with. $800-$1200 for a woodstocked rifle is really not an astronomical amount, but many of you here refuse to take something like that to the woods out of fear of hurting it, even though there are millions of other guns just like yours."

True, but many of us "older" gentlemen came up either poor or at least not having a lot. We learned to take care of our stuff because we figured out very quickly that if you tore something up, it would probably be awhile before you got another one unless you went and earned the money yourself to buy it. We understand the value of a buck and learned to work for what we have. I fit in that category. Although I have the money to buy an expensive (at least to me) wood stock rifle, take it out and possibly scratch it up, I would prefer not to. I would rather take a less expensive synthetic stock out that I spent way less for, performs just as well and I don't have to worry about nearly as much if caught in inclement weather. I still have and will shoot my older, wood rifles but am very particular about where and when I do. As I said earlier, to each his own and I certainly don't throw darts at those whose values and choices are different than mine. It's all good.

I too am not crazy about the new rifle market. I wanted, and looked for, a classic walnut stocked, better than average bolt action rifle and found one in the used market. It's a Cooper M52 Classic in 30-06, one of the older ones, not a current production. It's not a fancy one, kinda plain Jane for a Cooper. But it's solid, clean lines, well balanced and has a great trigger. The Kahles scope I put on it really compliments it. It will be hunted and taken out in the woods and hopefully, account for a deer or 2. I do look forward to what new comes out, just none of it excites me like it used to.

I get that, and I absolutely don't mean to take shots at people who do that. I also didnt grow up with a whole lot, but my parents always gave me what I needed. Father was in the military, and then I was in the Army for a stint. And I don't bring home very much money now either, but for some reason I'm perfectly content taking my wood stocked kimber or winchester out in the rain and woods to hunt. When I get home I wipe it down and put a light film of oil on the metal and it's good to go.
The stock might have a couple of dents, but is by no means beat up.
I just think if more people were alright with buying a nice classic looking rifle, and hunting hard with it, we would see more of them for sale than other styles.

No offense taken, JV. Just explaining at least my take. Thanks for serving our country! My Dad and Uncles all served in WWII and have one brother that served, also. I just missed the draft for Vietnam by a couple of years and opted for college and career over the military. I sometimes wish I had chosen at least a short stint in the service.

Somebody above me referred to the thread protector knob on the end of the new Rugers and Marlin Guide Guns and Kimber Montanas as that. I laughed and copied it.

I also like the Model 70 Featherweights, and would even pay for higher quality wood on them. Current price on a standard Featherweight is around $900 (bought one in 2003 when still in college for $600 for comparison).

The problem we all have is there are far fewer of us with these tastes than there are guys paying for $350 entry level plastic stuff. The 1 nice rifle I buy ayear though isn't enough to keep the manufacturers going.