I’m not telling you anything you didn’t already know, just thinking out loud. Has the Golden Age of bolt action rifles as we knew it come and gone?

Nothing desirable from Kimber (Montana, Classic, Classic Select).
Ruger 77’s or Hawkeye’s have mutated into a techno/tactical version that doesn’t appeal to me.
Remington 700’s are shipping in a few forms, but they’re just using up old parts. The new “Alpha” 700 has me interested, but no idea when they’ll ship. I don’t think stainless is an option either.
No Barrett Fieldcraft’s for now and I don’t expect them ever to return in the same form.
Winchester isn’t the old Winchester and they’re not shipping well either.
Tikka still makes a good stainless hunting rifle, but shipments are far and few between.
Christensen has done a decent job keeping rifles on the shelf.
Proof has been shipping a few too.

I know all about the manufacturing challenges. Maybe I’m getting old? Not that I don’t think there is a place for the Ruger American or the Savage Axis, I just think there is a huge segment of the bolt action market that wants something better. It appears as if every manufacturer thinks dipping their stocks in some god awful camouflage and cerakoting the action is innovation.

I know I can’t be the only person out there disgusted with what’s currently available on the market?

I still do not understand why Ruger abandoned the Hawkeye in the stainless/plastic stocks and blued/walnut. They were the best feeling, rendition of the 77 action. Ruger really messed up in my opinion.


A Ruger American is not something I would take on a hunt outside my backyard

I feel your pain. What you are saying is also true of rifle scopes. Go and try to find a compact scope today that will fit on a long action. The new tactical styled scopes made today do not have the mounting space that the old scopes did. It's also hard to find a scope that has just a duplex. I don't need a scope that is illuminated and has the mil dots. I'm not saying they should stop making the newer stuff but continue to offer some of the older simpler stuff as well.

+1

I've gravitated back to aperture sights more in the past 2 years, just because of that.

Had issues just locating a wood/blue 30-06. Interesting times.

Mike78, I use aperture sights too. They work well for me.

Agreed

Scopes are another issue of mine. I just want a good, dependable scope made in America….period.

The (Portugal) M70 FWTs are still very high quality, at least. The pre-64s were obviously made here, but even they weren't *that* Winchester.

Ruger ditching the walnut/blued really stinks.Hoping they'll eventually snap out of tacticool phase...

I've always thought the new wood/blue Mausers look great. But you've got to spend a ton before it's really CRF. I don't need a $1600 pushfeed Mauser... sorta the opposite of the point!

They are making what most people are wanting to buy. It’s business. Most of the rifles on the shelves are 6.5 creedmore. Apparently they sell because the stores are ordering the hell out of them. Edk

Great thread and I completely agree.

Ruger DROPPED the ball cutting the Hawkeye Rifle production of Walnut/Blue and the Stainless/Synthetic rifles. Winchester and Tikka need to WAKE UP and NOT do the same.

And yes, scope are definitely NOT what they used to be. I miss the Nikon Monarchs, Bushnell Elites. These were quality scopes for a reasonable price. Now, unless you want to spend a fortune, companies want you buy JUNK Vortex Diamondbacks and other Chinese garbage!

Also, why is it so many shooters feel you need to have an illuminated Christmas tree reticle with an objective the size of the Webb telescope???

Eventually you ask - do they sell because that's all that's available?

Ruger 77 rifles, tang, mkII and hawkeye, out number all the other rifles I own. There isn't a centerfire, bolt action rifle that I would buy from Ruger today

Nope. My shelves are still full of those rifles. Customers tell you what they want and we hear it daily…and they don’t want the new stuff they’re pumping out. Not everyone wants a camo budget rifle in the color of the week.

The outrageous prices on we all see on Ruger 77’s, Hawkeye’s, 700’s, New Haven 70’s, Kimber’s and Fieldcraft’s tell us exactly what everyone is looking for.

Correct. Mosin Nagant rifles aren't the most common in Russia because they are the best

Hey, SAS, any word on whether or not somebody is going to restart Montana Rifle Company (MRC) back up?

Do those still making rifles have an answer? Or is their plan to keep giving us junk until we finally succumb to mediocrity?

I don’t have a clue. Now would be a great time though!

.............and they have that sweet MOA trigger.... OOOOOOOOoooooohhh!

The different models of the Hawkeye will be back.

Ruger has a habit of not flooding the market with the same offerings year after year.

I wish I knew. I do think there are some guys involved in making major decisions that shouldn’t be in their role. I understand profitability as a business owner, but I also they can’t quantify the loss in sales if the correct product isn’t in the market.

This all goes back a few years, but rifle sales were lagging. All gun sales lag when an administration isn’t threatening to take your guns. Budget guns were still making a huge dent in the market, as were precision rifles. Sales of traditional hunting rifles were slow, but steady. There were several options to choose from then as well. Not that the market was saturated, but everyone had a traditional bolt gun so there were options.

There aren’t many options now and Boards are making decisions for manufacturers. They saw the profitability on budget bolts and precision rifles and decided to beat that horse to death.

Couldn’t agree more with the OP. Yea, the rifle market is hurting. I would be more tempted to buy a Kimber Adirondack or something similar if only they didn’t put those god awful graphic designs on their stocks.

They need to bring back the Montana. We will pay what it’s worth.

And for the love of god, can manufacturers stop putting threads on the end of every damned barrel they send out? Guns are supposed to be loud and have recoil. If you can’t handle that, perhaps you should take up basket weaving.

Wouldn't be so bad if it didn't look like the knot in the middle of a dogs di..ick!

Even though I didn't need it I just purchased a S&W Model 1500 (Howa) off GB for just over 600 and it has a beautiful custom classic style stock with steel widow's peak buttplate and skeleton pistol grip cap) with all screw heads aligned worth at least ($2-3$k) to build it now. No flaws, just a beautiful rifle. I will not buy the new plastic rifles. I think the gun manufacturers are being run by the marketing guys and bean counters. Seems whatever comes out in a new caliber sells like hotcakes until the owners see some new whizbang cartridge released. I also believe it's a generational gap because old guys like me (73) have experienced the finer firearms in life. I would take the Howa over a M700 or any plastic equipped rifles. Of course, Pre-64 Model 70s are always on top. All this is just my opinion so it's not worth anything. BTW, it's in .30-06.

Yep

+1 Those stocks make me gag.

Even if Howa and Weatherby and Remington put walnut stocks on their main offerings, that would be a huge step in the right direction.

And maybe if a decent barreled action didn't cost $700...

Yes. The producers might want everyone to buy stuff that's easier to mass produce and more profitable, but that doesn't mean everyone actually wants it. The same plastic stuff has been sitting at our Wal-Mart forever for dirt cheap. No one buys it. But a BDL in the box pulls $1000+ online.

Some of this has to do with a false cultural shift. Black Rifle Coffee and Instagram type stuff make it seem like everyone has a huge beard and a Barrett 50. It's a mirage just like the political echo chambers...

Pretty well expresses the thoughts I’ve had for quite some time now. I don’t think it just bolt action rifles though. In the US, it seems the biggest era of product innovation and manufacturing has long since passed. For much of my adult life, I’ve found ‘most’ continental firearms (rifles and shotguns) to vastly surpass ‘most’ American-made products in overall quality and workmanship. It’s a generalization which means there are exceptions.

I’m sure there are many reasons for that.

Agree on rifles and scopes. The other thing is i'm so FREEKIN sick of every rifle tested being a 6.5 NEEDMORE i could puke.

Definitely a used market buyer here.

Paying more then when the rifles were new, but that's the nature of the beast.

Darrik, so good to see you posting here.

I also like the Ruger 77's, Hawkeye's, 700's etc..

Ruger still shows the Hawkeye Predator on their website in .223 but you cannot find one. I would love to have one or the All-weather Hawkeye

Why are we not seeing many stainless rifles?
.

Being a fan of the Model 700, I had high hopes that the new owners at Remington would bring the 700's back to it's former glory.............and I'm still holding out hope. But, I'm afraid they're in no hurry to start turning out the good stuff anytime soon.

I wanted a stainless 6.5 CM, so I bought a Howa. I wouldn't rule out buying more Howas either, but even they have been become rather predictable and boring.

I agree

Seems to me…

The heirloom wood stocked rifles that you are going to pass down 3 generations have passed.

SAS,

You see it at the sales counter.

What % of folks are buying guns to shoot 5x ( 5 rounds a year) a year for deer season and then put it up til next year?

The $400 RAR and axis scratch that itch.

America wants blister pack rifles. Thankfully I have everything I want, none of which have been made in the last few years.

Chalk me up as another one who is glad to see you back. I can imagine the past few years have kept you busy.

Christensen has seemed to keep product moving. My own experience and reading around the web tells me they have some QC issues. Bergara has also done a pretty good job of keeping some product out there. Not as good as Christensen, but better than average.

Ruger has lost me. They used to be a favorite. The "frosted" stainless they have used in recent years mars ridiculously easily. I much prefer the stainless they used in the skeleton stock days. Some manufacturers are cerakoting stainless. That's a great big WTF to me.

The bolt action market has turned into a collective yawn for me.

I lucked out and acquired an unfired wood & blued Hawkeye in 9.3x62mm. First wood stocked rifle in a very long time. It's staying with me too...

If I had to guess, it would be:

1. Cost of raw material
2. Availability of raw material
3. Cost of manufacturing with stainless
4. Cost of cerakote vs. stainless

We need more stainless hunting rifles.

It’s a big percentage, but hose guys still prefer stainless on their Axis if they can afford the choice. Ruger pricing has gotten ridiculous on the atrocious Go Wild Americans.

Good point. Can't buy something that isn't an option. As a southpaw, I'm painfully aware of that.

When it’s obvious to even a casual observer that corners have been cut, it’s time for a course correction. The gun makers forgot that to many, rifles eventually become heirlooms.

I would think the higher quality European gun makers would also have these challenges in spades. Perhaps, there is a great deal to how our respective hunting cultures have developed. That of Europe, more so of the aristocrat class and they are and have been the market for higher dollar firearms. And maybe Brad is right in that the average American hunter wants a blister pack from Walmart.

Paul mentioned Bergara above and we’ve continued to receive a decent supply from them. They have two big “X’s” in my book - they’re heavy and they don’t currently import stainless rifles. I know Ruger and Winchester weren’t known for light rifles, but they were American made. That’s a big plus in my book.

I used to see used Savage 10/11/110 etc for sale everywhere, but not anymore

What's the "Alpha" model you mention?

Good catch. It’s the future of the Remington 700.

I was recently without a Ruger 77 for the first time in a long time. The itch to add one back cost me $800 for a better than average Hawkeye All Weather in .308. They could be had new 10 years ago for $600ish. Oh well.

Anything different about them, or just newly manufactured parts?

Bergara pulled the plug on the Timber and Woodsman pretty darn quick. I'm guessing they won't be going walnut again in the states for a while?

Now just be a lefty in the midst of all this...

I’ve not handled or seen one. Just hearsay at this point. Phone conversations basically. I think it’ll be something like this - side bolt release, wide ejection port, longer mag box, round top, better stock, trigger tech and faster twists.

No idea when/if it will actually be produced, but if those things are true it could be a winner. Lots of time to screw stuff up between ideas and actual production.

Truth be told, I hope Remington (or Rem Arms) comes back and kicks everyone’s ass. We need a leader of the pack that others want to imitate (again). We need some excitement about a quality rifle. I’m sick of seeing social media posts about another digital camo rifle with a fluted barrel, fluted bolt, muzzle brake and painted another color of brown or gray.

Me too. Hope you are right. As this thread demonstrates, the American public is ready for a well thought out and well made rifle that hasn’t been dumbed down for the masses.

It would be nice to see a rifle maker give us rifle loonies some credit.

I guess I have a different perspective.......

All purchased pre-enjoyed at a value!


Some recent acquisitions.....



Steyr Ultra-light, 223 Rem



Rigby Style Stalking Rifle, Parker-Hale action, 275 Rigby




Steyr Mannlicher Classic, 8mm x 57




Sako AIII Deluxe, 270 Win.





Sako AV Deluxe, 280 Rem





Custom, Remington 600, Mannlicher, 17 Mach IV





Remington Model 7 Custom Shop, 7mm--08




Remington 700, Custom Shop, 300 Win Mag




Blaser R93 Grand Luxe, 30-06 Springfield

ya!

GWB

Will take your word on that. And on the other note a yes for a new Montana.

^ This!

Not to sound like a know it all, but I saw this coming yrs. ago when the traffic at the Gun shows slowed down,
and the Black rifle lovers took hold, and the Lib tards started to voice their opinions, louder, and more often!
I remember the old timers, saying, things were changing, people are changing! They were right, and We listened!

Seriously, My buddies still re mind me, as do my sons, as we were buying as much stuff as we could think of,
and afford. The problem is, that even though, you can't do it all, or even think of it all, but we sure put a dent in it,
and I truly have to say that there's nothing that I have, to have. My boy's feel the same way!

Don't miss understand me, I like stuff like everyone else, but changing with the times, is important!

G-Dub,

I’ll all about used treasures too. Prices went up with demand and bargains are harder to find, but quality is worth a price. Never considered you a Ruger American or Savage Axis guy anyway!!

I’m all for American made, but we no longer have a nationalistic mental climate here, or a true capitalist system but rather big, global corporations. The “made in China” attitude has spilled over to all kinds of products even when not made in China. Profits — cheap means of production trumping quality, and meeting a price point are the priority. Also, the tactical style has overtaken us as you mentioned.

The secondary gun makers, niche shops, and special runs have sprung up presumably to meet the demand of ‘Fire type folks but they are small production venues and seem to struggle with any consistency, are one-of situations, or even fall out of the market..

I certainly don’t have all the answers concerning a business you are in but It seems to indicate that we — ‘Fire type folks and the desires we have in common — are a small and shrinking demographic.

GW - are you absolutely sure you're not interested in adopting any adult children? 😇😂

You mean they fibbed?


While not as attractive as "classic" rifles, nobody's convincing me to take the suppressors off of my threaded Fieldcrafts.

It’s not about the outside of the barrel (grin)

And I have 9 suppressors. Don’t hunt much with them though.

Seeing GW’s post, I have to say I think the Blaser R93/R8 straight-pull rifles, and having had both, were the most innovative guns for a hundred years, with quality throughout, but seem to be appreciated only by a certain kind of buyer here.

Again, demand.

It might be as simple as they can sell all they make of the stuff geezers hate, so why bother with other stuff? As someone mentioned, Ruger has historically suspended production of models when the supply lines were deemed full so as not to create surpluses that lead to big discounts, like the $800 No.1 V you sold me a few years back😛. I’ll bet some of their classic stuff will reappear once the huge demand for anything that spits lead subsides.

I recently bought what probably is my last rifle, at least my last new one, an M70 EW MB. I’ve played with a few M70s over the years, including a Pre64 I hunted with for 30-odd years, a Post-64 .22/250 that belonged to an old friend, and a couple of Classic SS .270s belonging to my sons. The two SS Classics were the worst of the lot, the Pre-64 and my new one the best. Except for the two-piece bolt of the new one, I’d rank it fully the equal of the old one, though they are configured very differently of course. I’d prefer the old trigger, but the new one is just fine. Machining quality, smoothness, and function are all I could ask for. Wasn’t cheap, but it was worth it.

Haven’t cared about Remingtons since I bought a 600 50 years ago. I’ll take a Howa over a 700 every time for their solid, all forged actions with one-piece bolts and the easiest take-down I’ve seen. I hope the new Remington prospers (and deserves to), but they’ll have to do it without me.

oh really now?

Imagine being a lefty.

Truth.

I'm lefty and it sucks for choices. Thankfully I have a Ruger MKII and several Hawkeyes in lefty and lefty Winchester 70 classic. My stainless lefty is an A-bolt and I have a right Kimber Montana. I just am thankful I picked up what I did, when I did. Blessed

Can't hardly blame them with the cost of rifles these days

I agree about the 77's. Now I may very well purchase an American to compliment my Hawkeye which I don't take out in nasty weather

^ this

I'm lefty and it sucks for choices. Thankfully I have a Ruger MKII and several Hawkeyes in lefty and lefty Winchester 70 classic. My stainless lefty is an A-bolt and I have a right Kimber Montana. I just am thankful I picked up what I did, when I did. Blessed

I'm a lefty and haven't owned a left handed bolt gun in decades. I enjoy having choices

Off the shelf is hard to live with 90% of the time.
Life’s too short to own junk.

Yep

I am lost on the difference between "the American public" and "the masses"?

SAS,
Couldn't agree with you more. Everything offered today is blah. The European rifle market interests me to some degree these days but they're following the U.S. market with plastic and economy rifles. One thing that I can say about the few European rifles I own that the latest American manufacturers can't seem to figure out is feeding and extraction. Kimber Hunters with the magazines are about the absolute worst for positive feeding followed by the double-stack internal mag Savage setups. Tikka feeds and extracts better than anything out there albeit they're mostly plastic.

Ruger has spawned renewed interest in Marlin and the new 1895 CSBL .45-70s are pushing $2-3K on Gunbroker. I'd like to see some nice offerings from Marlin at a reasonable price point, not $1400+. If Remington can provide what you say with the Alpha offering and pay attention to detail (e.g. accuracy, trigger, feeding, extraction, fit/finish), they'll have something. The stuff that interests me is what I own now. I don't need another expendable, economy rifle.

JB has mentioned this before , but walnut prices are unreal and are not going to get better anytime soon. Turkey is only able to put out such stocks on their guns because their regime is so corrupt. Erdogan is allowing the wholesale cutting of everything to stave off the coming collapse for as long as he can

I may be wrong, but before I would pay 2k for some of the factory offerings, I would just do a custom and get the chamber I wanted, barrel length I want, contour and twist rate, etc.
Not everyone is shooting 1000 yards or more, same as not everyone is shooting 50 gr 22-250 bullets. Get the twist for what you are wanting to shoot.

Valid point.

We have a lot of new shooters now, and most of them probably know or care little about the nuances between a nice rifle and a plastic tool.

Man, SAS dropping some serious truth throughout this thread.

A visit to the rifle counter in gun shops is a sad state of affairs for sure. Surely there are lots of pieces to the puzzle of why, many have been pointed out here. It seems any product manager at a major rifle manufacturer could watch the price trend of used rifles on Gunbroker and develop a business case for a high quality, hunting style rifle. Maybe the volume of the cerakoted crap rifles is so high that the profitability trumps this opportunity, I don’t know.

I’m in a Bergara group on Facebook, I guess because I own one. Anyway, watching posts and trends there provides some insight to the ignorance and sometimes lack of intelligence amongst many of the rifle buyers in the market today. I think clockwork_7mm hit the nail on the head here:

“Some of this has to do with a false cultural shift. Black Rifle Coffee and Instagram type stuff make it seem like everyone has a huge beard and a Barrett 50. It's a mirage just like the political echo chambers...”

Much of the current rifle buying customers now are flat out fakes. They only care that they look like fit in group so they mimic what they see others doing/buying and have no clue how a product should work or perform, and seemingly what it’s supposed to do. Almost daily, someone with a new HMR posts on the Facebook page something like,”what’s everyone using for ___________?” The blank could be suppressors, scopes, scope levels, magazines, tripod mounts (my fave, lol)…you get the idea… They might as well scream, “I can’t read, comprehend and discern for myself what to get, but that doesn’t matter because all that matters is that you accept me so tell me what to do.”

When the consumer is concerned that his product makes him part of the crowd more than whether it functions as it should, and is ignorant to the point he might not even know when it isn’t functioning as it should, well, it’s very easy to be impressed with a cerakoted barrel that’ll have some surface rust in the bore before you can get it home from a morning hunt in a light drizzle.

It’s a fake culture, as clockwork said, where appearance matters and substance just isn’t important.

Rant over….

Have had quite a few walnut / blued rifles over the years. Some new, some classics.

Plastic aint pretty, but its tough.

Hell if it wasn't so much money, I'd convert my Ruger single shots to synth.

Several weeks ago I walked through Sportsman's Warehouse. One wood-stocked rifle caught my eye as it was the only one in the rack of bolt actions. I counted 87 bolt actions.

Last week I was there. No wood-stocked bolt actions. Fewer bolt-actions overall-maybe 70.



Bruce

It used to be when I would take a slip and fall while hunting, I always made sure the rifle or shotgun stayed up and my body took the impact. At 70+, I have tried to be more careful, but have also vowed to sacrifice the gun before the body. Hence, I now rifle hunt with a plastic stocked TC Compass that cost me $218 at a box store and shoots 1" groups with factory ammo. It is made as well as any AR platform, and shares some of the technology. My pre-64's and 77 tangs stay in the safe. To me, its about the hunt and not the gun. JMHO

I have a pretty stock on a tang safety 77 and it is a beautiful accurate rifle. I hunt with a crappy plastic stocked Weatherby Vanguard & it doesn’t bother me to beat it up badly dragging through oak brush elk hunting. Guns are tools first, pieces of excellent artistic workmanship 2nd. Why don’t you all hunt with fine double rifles? Too expensive & not as practical as bolt or other actions.

We have rifles under $600 that guarantee 1” accuracy. Those beautiful old Remingtons didn’t shoot as well as plastic Tikkas or Vanguards of today. We aren’t limited by few efficient calibers we don’t think 30-40 Krag is the deer caliber of choice.
I

Buy old.

Gotcha.

The only new rifle I have bought in many years is a Mauser M12 308 Win sold at a huge discount around a year ago. Some folks here know of what I speak. When delivered it was a quality piece to the point of me buying three for my sons as Christmas gifts. They are happy... I have plenty of pre-80's, 70's, 60's... rifles. These Mauser made me appreciate the "new" build.

I am in the same boat. A ss Howa in 6.5 cm In a McMillan Sako Classic would just about cover my hunting needs.

I love my classic FN, BRNO and HVA 98s. I love my CZ 550s, Ruger M77s and I love my high end full customs. These days it is hard to disparage the weight, simplicity and utter effectiveness of taking a Tikka or similar rifle afield. I hate to admit it but they are every bit as "good" hunting rifle as some of their safe-mates that cost five to ten times as much to have the best smiths in to business build.

For me the new rifles have no soul. It is simply a tool to get groceries. With the exception of my .416 Ruger, I have never subscribed to shooting rifles chambered in cartridges under 50+ years old. Don't really have a great reason but it comes back to the reverence for heritage and legacy that I have for the sport.

Very interesting thread, and regardless of your particular preferences, it’s hard not to notice the trends on the shelves at the big gun shops. I also liked it better when there were more real choices out there, not so much “what paint job” on your econo-rifle. If I’m budget shopping, give me bare bones and good guts, not extra fluff and bedazzling. I was always a huge fan of a moderately priced stainless sporter that could be something special with just a stock swap. As I’ve got most of what I need in that department, my last couple of hunting rifle purchases have concerned what I feel to be actually useful evolutions of this Tactical surge, being a Sig Cross and a lightweight AR10. But they were still bought with hunting as their main purpose. If I had to tell somebody what to look for in a lifetime hunting rifle at the store right now, the choices are much slimmer than they were a decade ago.

Haha I *knew* you would comment on that. I know some guys hate the new trigger. (I'm not old enough to remember the old one in its heyday, but have never had an mechanical issues with the new.) Compared to its peers, though, in terms of wood, bluing quality, no plastic, action smoothness, having a floor plate, etc., I don't think it's even a contest. The Portugal M70 FWT is as close to "new old" as you're gonna get under $1000.

I agree with SAS on the general rifle market....but.....I do think there are excellent off the shelf, very high quality, hunting rifles available now. They are very different from Rem/Ruger/Win standard production line models....and the price does show it. It's a different category but there's a lot of production rifles you'd have to go full custom to get the quality of now.

Nice rifles GW. Just getting caught up.

If anyone wants a picture of current demand for the non-existent factory wood/blue rifle, all you have to do is look at GB auctions for Left Hand Remington 700's. Clean used LH BDL's are bringing $1,000 to $1,500. Clean used LH CDL's are bringing $1,500 to $2,000. One NIB LH CDL in .223 brought $3,000 last month. Left Hand Remington 700's bringing as much as Left Hand Win M70's brought a couple years ago...

A person could go with a custom action, barrel, stock (not high grade wood/checkering), and smith work for less than that .223.

No doubt that the LH rifles are bringing a premium, but most all the original 700's are selling high over there. I did a transfer for a neighbor, he paid $1800 for a 1970's 700 Varmint BDL, nice wood and metal, although it did show some use. I sold a NIB 700 BDl 30-06 on GB for $1500 last year. The market on 700's is crazy these days.

Short of my recent purchase of four Mauser M12's on sale, I have not bought a new centerfire rifle in many years. I'm really not lacking for my needs and wants, thankfully. I am enjoying accurate 22 rimfires a lot these days.

3 times a year I take a weekend, a full tank of gas, and pocket full of cash and make a wide circuit through a series of small town hardware / sporting good stores. There I find all manner of used firearms - some trash, some plastic, but most are well cared for wood stocked rifles.

Most of time it results in just a drive through some nice country, but every so often I come across some gems that cash will move small mountains.

Been doing this for so long that some owners/managers will give me a heads up when something special comes along...

Darrik,

What price range do you think folks are willing to pay for the types of rifles they are wanting?

John

John,

The bar has been raised. To put things into perspective, Ruger American Go Wild’s are around $600 everywhere - give or take $40 each way. Inflation has taken its toll on the gun market. I see everything being $200 or so higher than a few years ago. Some exceptions with models currently still in production, but not many. Keep in mind we’ve always been on the low side of the price curve. Some readers on here were probably seeing guns in this range previously.

I don’t think customers would walk away from a new $849 Remington 700 SPS Stainless. Maybe even $899? When they were in production and readily available, the last ones we had were around $679 to $700. I’m talked standard weight hunting rifles. I also don’t think customers would walk away from a Ruger Hawkeye or 77 MKII in the same price range. Again, speaking specifically about standard sporter stainless/synthetic version.

Kimber Montana’s were always higher. Our last few were $1149 or so if I remember correctly. The new normal would be $1400. Fieldcraft’s could be $1899-$1999 easily. Kimber Classic’s could fetch the same money as the Montana. That only holds true if they came back in the same form or of equality quality. Slapping the name on a new version with a cheaper stock isn’t an improvement and would soon be cast aside by real rifle guys.

The Montana Rifle Company could easily fall in line with Kimber pricing if done right. No more crappy stocks. They need a stock equal to the previous Kimber’s or Barrett’s to succeed. They’d also need to pay attention to weight, extraction/feeding, safety operation and twists.

Gunbroker is telling us daily what the market is willing to pay.

I saw that rifle. Was hoping to nobody would know what it was.

Love my weatherbies

I haven't bought a new gun in 5 yrs and at the same time don't know how many used guns I have bought in that time. Many of us here are the same but we are the minority of a shrinking number of gun buyers.

I could be wrong but I think part of the issue is that tastes in firearms are changing. I believe younger generations are more interested in ARs, pistol caliber carbines, and tactical-style bolt guns than hunting rifles. The market goes where the demand is.

When someone can sell a Remington 700BDL 30/06 for $1500, that would tend to shoot your theory full of holes.

My son is 22. He has an AR for govarmints.

Outside of that - a MKII in 243 (wood/blue) and a Bergara 30-06.

He lusts over traditional rifles.

The shelves aren't well stocked with them.

The younger people want/buy what's available and if all that's available is AR based - that's what gets sold which perpetuates the idea that onlyy those will sell. Self fulfilling prophecy.

Some - definitely but you tell me all these hipsters wearing vintage flannel, boots and hats all suggenly want ARs when it comes to guns? And yes, young people are buying guns...

I’d like to add this to the conversation. I’ll use Kimber as an example.

Kimber has another revenue line - pistols. I’ve been told the pistols are where they make their profits and I fully believe and understand that to be the truth. I don’t think anyone can question the fact that the pistol line far outsold the rifle line. They market their 1911’s as “custom” and it’s served them well.

From a retailers perspective, we need every pistol they make on the shelf. Every variation of the 1911 they produce sells, period. The rifle line was a totally different story. They had far too many SKU’s. Certain models would linger on the shelf for years. I’d eventually mark it down to get it off the shelf and it would go. Bargains do miracles.

If a company like Kimber, who relies on their strong/profitable revenue stream from pistols wants a rifle line, they need to take the custom approach there as well. They need to charge for it too. You can’t build a semi-custom rifle and maintain high quality on a production rifle retail strategy.

I’d be happy if they’d tell us, “We’re only making 4 different rifles in 4 different chamberings in 2022. We’re going to produce an 84M Classic in 308, an 84L Classic in 25-06, an 84M Montana in 223 and an 84L Montana in 270 - but we’re going to make them right. Twisted right, individually bedded, mag boxed accordingly. Every rifle will as close to as a semi-custom production rifle as we can make. Next year we’ll have the same rifles in different chamberings, so order as many of these as you can handle for this year. We’re only producing 1500 rifles in each offering. Everything from this point is limited production and we expect to earn your full support with the quality of our products!.”

The rifle would cost more, but people would pay for it. All manufacturers whine about niche markets but very few capitalize on it. Those niche market guys expect to pay more for what they want. And then you get the trickle down….those guys rave about their new Kimber’s and the bar has been set. The guys that bought their Kimber’s tell their buddies it’s THE only rifle to buy and before you know it the guy that knows nothing about rifles buys next year’s Kimber because it’s THE rifle and he tells his buddy.

It’s not always about price. You don’t have to produce to the masses to be profitable or successful. There will always be manufacturers that produce for the masses.

I’ve said it for years, but eventually one manufacturer will get it all right and they’ll change the game. A couple got close, but didn’t persevere.

Teal's last point is spot on. The hipsterization of rifles is a thing. It's the people who like clothes from the store brand new that are made to look like they came from the thrift store... but equated for old Winchesters and Husqvarnas. Google has tons of blogs about "how to restore a vintage rifle like your grandpa" and stuff like that. Those folks aren't touching an AR because it's "evil."

I don’t know how much of it is generational. Admittedly, I am half your age but the majority of big game rifles in my safe predate both of us or are from the heydays of your generation. The customs in my safe are chambered in “traditional” cartridges and most are built on commercial M98s.

I feel that as people come into the sport they start with what is on the market. Especially if there is little to no history with the classics. The first big game rifle I bought for myself twenty years ago was a Rem 700 BDL SS in 300 RUM I had delusional dreams of cross-valley kills on elk and black tails… I learned, grew up a little, adjusted my perspective on my ethical range limits, and sent it down the road. I began investing in rifles that I would be proud to pass to my sons and someday grandchildren. I know there is a need to develop new rifles and cartridges to bring or keep people to the sport but I personally believe we have been on a downhill slope for quite some time.

It's still possible for people from age 20 to 80 to have diverse interests in rifles. I've known young guys that like lever guns and old guys that like AR rifles.

I will say that one thing that has pushed me away from walnut in recent years is the fact that most wood seems really plain these days, not really worth an upcharge from a synthetic handle unless you are talking about a low-volume manufacturer like Cooper. The Kimber models with select-grade wood were some of the only ones that caught my eye and seemed worth the price.

“Life is too short to hunt with an ugly rifle”

I really thought the used market would get better for old Winchesters, Sakos, nice Mausers and the like when collectors from the golden era of nice blued/wood rifles either retired/died/estate sales. For true collector grade rifles, I didn't expect the prices to drop, but for a sound but well used old Pre-64, I really though we'd see some discounts. It seems there's enough buyers with taste similar to my own that the prices are just going higher and higher.

I will say I lost a lot of interest in new guns when minor aesthetic changes began happening. That barcode junk they were stamping on 700 receivers, the entire owner's manual on Ruger barrels, the six hundred digit serial number on Win 70's...

This forum is primarily populated by dedicated hardcore rifle loonies, the majority of which are old-timers who's earning power and new-rifle buying-days are past.

The gun stores are primarily filled with young guys eagerly splashing out the cash for the latest tacticool rig with colors like on their computer games.

Manufacturers go where the money is.

I got the rifles I wanted (Fieldcraft, Montana, and a couple heavy remington 700s) in 2016-2017 when they were on sale at Whittakers ( shout out to SAS). Strange feeling, but I don’t want any more now.

Where do you think young’s guys go to learn? They Google stuff and it takes them here. It’s our job to educate.

And I’m amazed weekly by the number of younger guys that don’t want tactical stuff. They come in asking for the exact same rifles being discussed in this thread. I have a young Marine begging me for a Remington 700 25-06. He has all the tactical stuff too, but prefers traditional rifles when hunting. The young crowd likes the tactical stuff, but it’s far from everything they want.

It’s amazing how many 25-30 year olds want something better than a disposable rifle.

Blame it on Wal-Mart.
Maybe.
Ever notice their attitude of, "you can buy what we want to sell"?



It's widespread now.
Go to a chain grocery store.
Try to buy a cut up chicken. Pik of the chik, it used to be called.
Mom bought whole ones and cut them, cheaper that way.
Now, a whole one is more expensive, and the only way to get a whole one in a package.
Instead, you buy pieces by the pack.

It's faster, easier, cheaper to run a line doing it the current way.

Try to buy a bone in pork loin.
Can't. Butcher told me they dont sell.
Bullschidt. Every store around here ran them on sale at New Years. They were
everywhere. People bought their years supply of p-chops at $.99/lb.

About 3 years ago it suddenly stopped.

Demand?
Fudge no!

$4/lb for the tenderloin
$2/lb for the loin
$3-5/lb for the baby back ribs.

Current trends make breaking it down a lot more profitable.
There are those idiots that don't understand the benefit of having bone
in their chops, they make it possible. But they arent the driving force.

All this to say it's not just demand, it's also about profit margins.
And a modern race to the bottom on low quality/high volume.

It will improve. We're in a very odd time where anything a company builds will sell, due to unprecedented demand and genuine shortages occurring at the same time. When companies again have to compete for buyers, prices will drop as well. Can you blame the OEM's for jacking up wholesale pricing, rather than letting the retailers get it all? A CEO wouldn't last long if he left that on the table.

As far as Kimber goes, the Montana was an anomaly from the start. How those idiots managed to get that beautiful Sirkis design from concept to production is beyond me. All they've discovered since is paint and muzzle threading. Maybe they'll be smart enough to make more if they can command a big price, but don't count on it.

Domestic manufacturers seem to pass on quality for price over and over, telling themselves it's a good plan. It merely cheapens the brand and allows Tikka and the like to grow. The new Springfield Waypoint will sell like crazy - order as many as you can, SAS. But something good from Remington? I'll believe it when I see it. The new company may get the message but I doubt it. While they try Tikka will sell thousands. Seekins will grow. Springfield will become a name in bolt actions. CZ will command a larger and larger part of the rimfire market. Vudoo will be backordered for a year. Builders of 700 footprint actions and custom barrels will be backed up for months. A few new aftermarket stock companies will break ground, and one or two will stick around. Remember when it was just McMIllan and few also-rans? Custom - or at least semi-custom - is the new way.

We live in the BEST if times for shooters, but it isn't a cookie cutter retail market anymore on the high end. Cheap plastic and blued steel will sell, at low margins and [soon] low price. Ironically Remington started it all with easily machined actions, plastic stocks, sights, and grip caps. Then someone else did it better. Then another. And another....

I think that the Weatherby Vanguards are still well made and not grossly over-priced.

I spent 7 years with an M16A1 assigned to me, so the whole tactical venue, particularly the pretend sniper/SPECOPS stuff, doesn't interest me, nor do suppressors. I actually had expected DJT to remove suppressors from the Class 3 list and make them available OTC, but that didn't happen.

My son is 24. He owns a Winchester 88 308 pre 64, a Winchester 70 Featherweight 308 pre 64, and a Remington 760 Carbine in 308 made in the mid 60's. I might add even though he is an Iraq vet and still in the National Guard he does not own an AR. He says they just remind him of Work.

That's how I was too, for a long time. I had my "work" gun and my hunting guns.

At some point I realized my "work" guns were pretty good at being hunting guns too.

My .02. I'm 64 and have been interested in guns since I was old enough to know what they were. My first one was a 20ga shotgun and then a Marlin/Glenfield model 60, both from JC Penney. I still have them both and will keep them till the end. I bought a few more then got into pistols for awhile, then life happened (like divorce, etc) and I got out of guns for quite awhile. In the last several months I have bought two Vanguard II synthetics, a Thompson T/CR22, a Ruger AR and have a JP Sauer 100XT. All of these are decent quality rifles at a good price point. None of them are blue and wood, although I obviously have nothing against them. The reality is that to get the same rifle in blue or stainless with wood stocks costs a lot more and they won't shoot any better.

I looked at a Thompson ICON that was blued and wood and it was, to me, a beautiful rifle that was well made. It was a new one still hanging around on display and the bottom price I got them to was $800 plus tax. I bought the Sauer, which is (to me) just as well made for $525. I REALLY liked that Thompson but the more I thought about it, the less appealing it became. I don't buy rifles to sit in the safe and look pretty when I take them out. I want to USE them. I suppose that if I could hunt on private land where I could drive up to within a short walking distance of my permanent stand, carefully take my prized wood stock rifle out of the case, carefully walk to said stand, take a gun cloth to keep it wiped off and then carefully place it back into it's case when I was done, it would be fine. That's not my situation. I would grieve if I damage the beautiful rifle as I'm a little OCD about my stuff.

I prefer a plastic stock rifle that I can take hunting or on the range and not worry about if if I happen to scratch it along the way. While I would still take great care of it and not just throw it around, I would not grieve if I did happen to damage it like I would the beautiful ICON. The only other option for me on wood stock guns would be to buy one that has already been used hard and shows it since I would then not worry about another scratch. Trouble is, many of the ones that are cosmetically damaged are also functionally questionable.

All rifles have a place. People fussing and cussing because they can't seem to find a rack of rifles in their preferred flavor seems like them forcing their choices on others like they are accusing the gun manufacturers of. If you don't like what's being offered these days, then don't buy any. Search the classifieds on the many places on the net, lthe ocal gun stores, pawn shops and gun shows to find what you like. For me, I can enjoy the past while embracing what the current offerings are. I think that I made good choices in my pickings and I can take them anywhere I want without spending as much time worrying about scratching them as i do focusing on the fun at hand. They all will or should (except perhaps the .22) shoot minute of angle at 100 yds, and I paid way less than their wood counterparts.

If you would really like to see more guns made in "the old fashioned" manor, then why not regularly write and/or call the manufacturers and ask them. Go to the large shows or find events where the mfrs' reps are in attendance and personally tell them what you would like to see them make. They may listen, they may not, but at least you tried. In the meantime, let's not throw rocks at each other....or the manufacturers. As others have said, if they ain't selling them, they won't keep making them, at least not for long. Companies will make what sells and what they can make a boat load of money on.

Peace.

Its a double edged sword. On one hand you don't want to spend 1200 on a winchester featherweight. You also don't want to buy a plastic rifle for 300. The 300 plastic rifle will do all you need it to do but you'd like a wood stocked and blue metal rifle. My good friend and I have gone over this for years. We're in our 50s. The ruger Americans will work just fine. A few years ago the Remingtons and now Winchesters are over 1000 dollars. I'd love to buy a nice bolt action rifle but the prices are ridiculous. Just my opinion

This thread touches on all the things I’ve been thinking for a while.

I’ve emailed and called Ruger to bring back the Hawkeye. Had money in hand last year and was ready to buy a .204 but none were available.

I’ve emailed Kimber asking what was up. Last week in fact. “Everything you see in our website is still in current production”. Well, you sure can’t find any of it in gunbroker or gunsinternstionsl for sale. I also told them to do a “classic-esque” like like SAS referenced above. Limited numbers in special cartridges for the year. They says they’d pass it along…

At least Winchester still offers Featherweights and Super Grades and the old classics and I’m spending money on them.

I don’t want a dog knot on the end of my rifle.

I don’t want a rail.

I don’t want a tacti-cool scope on my 1885.

Teal touched on something I’ve often thought as well. Manufacturers can say “see, the market is demanding we bring this cheap entry level crap to sell, that is all they’re buying”. You’d think they’d realize it’s all that is selling because it is the only thing offered un 95% of stores. I’m just an engineer, not a marketing guy though. Maybe cheap crap is what the market will only support.

Look at what a classic stocked classic rifle sells for on gunbroker. Be it a .250 Savage, Roberts, Swedes, 7x57, .300 H&H, etc. if the rifle isn’t hideous, they sell for mega premiums. Release some of these classic styled rifles (84s, 70s, Hawkeyes) in these cartridges, wood/blued, let it be known they’re a limited production number, watch them sell. I think?

I’ll buy a rifle or do a year, sometimes several. I won’t be buying any entry level price point stuff. So either offer it to ne as new production, or I’m buying used.

This is the Golden Age of firearms availability, there are scads of very desirable old rifles in excellent condition, and there are copious amounts of high end rifles from the likes of Rigby, Westley Richards, etc. Artisans like Dorleac and Dorleac abound and thrive.

But...for those that want something for nothing I suppose pickings may be scarce.

They know the entry level synthetics are hogging the shelf space. And when you consider how cheap they are to produce with all the plastic parts and the Happy Meal grade stock, they're taking in money hand over fist. Which is why entry level synthetics will continue to dominate shelf space.

Wanting a new, quality, traditional rifle in the $750-$1200 price range is hardly expecting something for nothing. A walnut/blued Hawkeye or FWT or CDL or 550 isn't remotely in the same ballpark as a new Rigby or a bespoke rifle and you know it...

Doesn't matter what you want for cheap...if you want something you have to pay.

SAS, I think that you are the guy to change the game. I don't know if you have the resources to start a rifle company, but it sounds to me that maybe you are talking yourself into it?

I think it would be awesome if someone from the 'Fire put their shingle up in the rifle making business. Might even get some funding from crowd sourcing? I don't know how that all shakes out, but it seems like times are different than decades past. Might even find some good employees here, but who knows?

I still think it goes back to what I said earlier about how they can sell all they make of the “cheap” stuff, so there’s little to gain from continuing to offer stuff that’s not doing well in the market, especially if that would mean adding employees and/or equipment.

Some months ago, CZ announced a new line of guns, and also the discontinuation of a number of their rifles to stay within their production capacity. Clearly, they don’t want to add capacity to keep those models in their catalog. Perhaps sales are lagging, or like with the 550s, the cost is beginning to exceed what the market will bear. Firearms are definitely durable goods, and once a company is in the position of competing against the used market in their own products, the party’s over. Anyone old enough to have voted for Nixon has seen this happen over and over, including FN Mausers, pre-64 Winchesters, and Savage 99s, to mention a few. Younger/newer shooters don’t have the same perceptions of quality as the more “seasoned” ones do. They’re all about price, and performance, mostly price I think based on what I see at the public range near me. Cheap guns mean more money for ammo, and more cheap guns. With fewer quality arms being made, the price of existing ones will go up due to increased demand on fewer goods from those who still appreciate them. Markets evolve.

For 90% of rifle buyers $750 to 1200 isn't cheap. Which, again, you already know.

He does but he enjoys acting like a dick

I was just at Jay's sporting goods in Gaylord, MI over the weekend.
It is a pretty good sized store with a lot of guns.
However for bolt action rifles, there were no 243's, no 7mm 08's, no 25 06's, no 7mm mags, only one .270, one .280ai, three 308's, two 30 06's, and one 300 win mag.

Ofcourse, there were atleast 40+ rifles in 6.5 creedmoor, 6.5prc, and a surprising amount of weatherby 6.5 RPM's.

Obviously not nearly as many people are buying the cheap 6.5's or the tactical 6.5's, just not selling like the standard rifles are, atleast at that store.

I picked up that. 280ai, a kimber mountain ascent. I am not a big fan of the digital camo stock, but I love the way it fits me and have a sweet spot for kimber rifles.

One thing I've noticed from this thread that I can't understand, is how many "older" gentlemen refuse to take an $800 dollar woodstocked rifle into the woods. They don't want to scratch it up, but rifles were meant to be hunted with. $800-$1200 for a woodstocked rifle is really not an astronomical amount, but many of you here refuse to take something like that to the woods out of fear of hurting it, even though there are millions of other guns just like yours.

Imo there need to be more Kimber 84m and 84l type of rifles out there, with wood stocks and nice bluing as well as the Montana style rifles. And I'll pay $1500 to $2000 for it.

I don't know what a "dog knot" is, but I find the schnabled tip of the post-'64 Winchester 70 FWT stocks to be most attractive.

"One thing I've noticed from this thread that I can't understand, is how many "older" gentlemen refuse to take an $800 dollar woodstocked rifle into the woods. They don't want to scratch it up, but rifles were meant to be hunted with. $800-$1200 for a woodstocked rifle is really not an astronomical amount, but many of you here refuse to take something like that to the woods out of fear of hurting it, even though there are millions of other guns just like yours."

True, but many of us "older" gentlemen came up either poor or at least not having a lot. We learned to take care of our stuff because we figured out very quickly that if you tore something up, it would probably be awhile before you got another one unless you went and earned the money yourself to buy it. We understand the value of a buck and learned to work for what we have. I fit in that category. Although I have the money to buy an expensive (at least to me) wood stock rifle, take it out and possibly scratch it up, I would prefer not to. I would rather take a less expensive synthetic stock out that I spent way less for, performs just as well and I don't have to worry about nearly as much if caught in inclement weather. I still have and will shoot my older, wood rifles but am very particular about where and when I do. As I said earlier, to each his own and I certainly don't throw darts at those whose values and choices are different than mine. It's all good.

I too am not crazy about the new rifle market. I wanted, and looked for, a classic walnut stocked, better than average bolt action rifle and found one in the used market. It's a Cooper M52 Classic in 30-06, one of the older ones, not a current production. It's not a fancy one, kinda plain Jane for a Cooper. But it's solid, clean lines, well balanced and has a great trigger. The Kahles scope I put on it really compliments it. It will be hunted and taken out in the woods and hopefully, account for a deer or 2. I do look forward to what new comes out, just none of it excites me like it used to.

I get that, and I absolutely don't mean to take shots at people who do that. I also didnt grow up with a whole lot, but my parents always gave me what I needed. Father was in the military, and then I was in the Army for a stint. And I don't bring home very much money now either, but for some reason I'm perfectly content taking my wood stocked kimber or winchester out in the rain and woods to hunt. When I get home I wipe it down and put a light film of oil on the metal and it's good to go.
The stock might have a couple of dents, but is by no means beat up.
I just think if more people were alright with buying a nice classic looking rifle, and hunting hard with it, we would see more of them for sale than other styles.

No offense taken, JV. Just explaining at least my take. Thanks for serving our country! My Dad and Uncles all served in WWII and have one brother that served, also. I just missed the draft for Vietnam by a couple of years and opted for college and career over the military. I sometimes wish I had chosen at least a short stint in the service.

Somebody above me referred to the thread protector knob on the end of the new Rugers and Marlin Guide Guns and Kimber Montanas as that. I laughed and copied it.

I also like the Model 70 Featherweights, and would even pay for higher quality wood on them. Current price on a standard Featherweight is around $900 (bought one in 2003 when still in college for $600 for comparison).

The problem we all have is there are far fewer of us with these tastes than there are guys paying for $350 entry level plastic stuff. The 1 nice rifle I buy ayear though isn't enough to keep the manufacturers going.

I'm the same way. Used, but not abused.

I didn't buy my Kimber Classic Select or Winchester 1885 to just look at. I bought them to use. I'm not going to throw them out on a creek bank to break in the bull barrel, or cow barrel (some will get that), but none are too good to not use.

exactly! Carried those things enough. Want something with pretty wood on it.

I don't get it. Manufacturer will put a radial brake on the rifle, cut to match the barrel contour, and then include a muzzle thread protector that looks like a big, honkin' wart.

I contacted the manufacturer, told 'em I'd pay extra for a thread protector cut to match the barrel contour. Nope they say, can't do it.

Ahh, actually it's "Nope they say, won't do it"...

I take every wood stocked rifle I own in the Woods. I hunt Laurel, rocky sidehills, rain, snow, and I'm always doing it with wood stocked rifles. Even rare and antique guns see the Woods with me

Howa and Weatherby do. Check out the new vanguards

I'm curious as to the number of rifles sold that are threaded from the factory versus the number of those same rifles that ever see a suppressor ever mounted on them. Think it would be 1%? Your average Joe Deerhunter isn't going through the paperwork and expense to buy a suppressor. To me, seems like a very very very small subset of the shooting population that would actually use the threads, yet, here they are, on everything.

Part of the problem is, as indicated by many posts within this thread, there are so many personal preferences that just can't cost effectively be addressed by manufacturers. Note, I don't say it's the only problem; but, that it is part of the problem. For the most part, we on this forum are rifle snobs. However, even as we are generally more informed than most, even we can't agree, most of the time. Just look at all of the genuine debates with respect to cartridge, barrel length, barrel contour, push feed vs crf, stainless vs blued, wood vs synthetic, which synthetic (?), overall weight, dbm/bdl/endlcosed mag box, ad infinitum. Heck, I would think a manufacturer or two might do well to sell only barreled actions and let we consumers choose our trigger and stock to fit our personal preferences. Who knows. The cost of production to meet all legitimate preferences is staggering.

I think the above is why the inexpensive rifle has become so popular. Add to that the fact that manufacturers are now more able than ever to bring very accurate rifles to the market in a cost-effective manner and many of our personal preferences are ignored. Heck, the most recent new rifle I bought was a Ruger American Predator 6MM Creedmoor. I actually wanted not a high-end but a higher-end rifle than that; but, I couldn't find one, new or used. Yes, I know if I was patient I would have found one. My thoughts were, after owning several RAPs that the chances were very high I was going to get a very accurate and very functional rifle. I was right. I was only out $450 and it was money well spent.

Like it or not, in my opinion, we on this forum are not the target market for rifle manufacturers. It is easy to argue that we should be; but, that is not the case, once again, in my opinion. It's like someone above mentioned; $700 is a lot of money for "most" hunters looking for a new rifle.

Having said all of that, I share the concerns of most in this thread.

Maybe mistaken but I thought I read (shortactionsmoker and others) say that there are a number of young people out there looking for a quality rifle. Seems to me that the firearm market is a lot like the electric vehicle market. Things we really don't want are getting shoved down our throat and you either buy it or there are few to no other options. TheBigSky just said it.... looking for a higher end rifle and they weren't out there.

Hasn't been but maybe 3 years, and every online gun source was blowing out Ruger Hawkeyes at fire sale prices. Who abandoned who? And why would Ruger produce 2 different quality level rifles and sell both for the price of the lesser unit?

I would like to question the consumerism part of this. Maybe you older generations can expand on.

Taking inflation into consideration, at what price point were the quality rifles sold for in days gone by compared to the low end priced rifles on the market today? For example, were the Pre-64 70s priced like today's $1500, $1000, or $500 rifles?

Were the older generations willing to spend more money on one or two "quality" do-it-all rifles for their battery compared to today where the consumers seem to treat rifles like golf clubs and have more in the safe to cover every situation?

Loonies are just that, so they don't count. I am referring to the average consumer.

And go look now at completed auctions on gunbroker with bids and see what a used Hawkeye sells for. $700 was cheapest, but $900-$1000+ is about average, throw some intersting cartridge in it and it is more.

I'm curious, and we will never know, why the blow-out 3 years ago? I was always scouring CDNN and it was usually synthetic stocked versions on the blowout sales. Was the blow-out because Ruger sold them cheap because they were discontinuing them? Which to your point, were they discontinued because they weren't selling? Or because they weren't selling in numbers compared to what they could sell a $300 RAR? Profits drive production for sure. Nobody is in business to make me happy, they're in business to make stockholders happy.

John is on to something here…..

That happened at a time when inventories were full everywhere. Ruger announced they were discontinuing the Hawkeye and a couple of distributors took advantage of the announcement to liquidate their inventory in hopes of paying other bills. We retailers jumped on it and bought everything we could from whoever we could. Our shelves were full too, but it allowed us to cost average our Hawkeye inventory and compete. (At least that’s what I did) We were in a bad position because a certain online only retailer was advertising all their Hawkeye’s for a little over $200 less than we had in ours originally.

Bottom line - Ruger abandoned us, retailers and consumers. The explanation I received from Ruger was that the American was outselling the Hawkeye and Ruger was losing money on every stainless/synthetic Hawkeye being produced. The cost of their raw material increased, stainless was harder on the tooling, the finishing of the Hawkeye itself was more expensive and time consuming, etc, etc, etc. if everyone remembers correctly, that’s when they discontinued the stainless Ruger American’s too.

Now to defend Ruger…..
Ruger was right. The American was outselling the Hawkeye. It was new to the market and arguably more accurate than the Hawkeye. We were selling Americans for less than half the price of a Hawkeye. I fully believe they were upside down on the Hawkeye cost wise. It had a ton of stainless parts that no doubt required addition cost to fit and finish. They also had tons of competition in the Hawkeye’s price range. They were also answering to a Board of Directors that didn’t care about anyone or anything other than a bottom line.

Now to give Ruger some hell….
The Hawkeye’s itself was the primary reason sales diminished from the Ruger 77 line. The gun was exactly the same mechanically to the 77MKII (except for the LC6? trigger), but that gray finish was hated by many. It looked cheap, it marked and scratched easily, it didn’t “match” anything in the industry, rust spots easily developed and it never appealed to consumers. Why they tried to paint the finish on rather than a light bead blast is beyond me! That change was one of the main reasons for the demise of the Hawkeye. Customers hated it and they gave their money to competitors.

Ruger could have easily maintained two rifle lines at separate price points as long as the higher price point rifle truly appeared to be a premium offering. That gray painted stainless wasn’t going to get it. The heavy laminate stocks don’t appeal to the majority of shoppers wanting a stainless hunting rifle either. They needed a premium stainless synthetic hunting rifle and still do.

The walnut stock with the wrap around checkering on the high polished blue Hawkeye was the best feeling stock they ever produced.

More on the post above….

I know people complained about the shiny finish on the stainless 77MKII’s as well. That was part of the reason the finish was changed on the Hawkeye. Rather than utilizing a finish similar to Remington, Sako, Winchester and everyone else in the industry, they decided it would be best to spray some unattractive gray paint on their stainless.

I wonder how the Hawkeye would have sold had they just lightly bead blasted the shiny finish? I’m betting it would have gone over phenomenally well and sales wouldn’t have immediately lagged. Might have even surged? It’s hard to quantify lost sales when something isn’t done right from the beginning.

I work tonight, and am about to lay down for a nap.

But as I head there, I'm grateful for the rifles that I have, from Winchester, Remington, Sako, and MRC.

Aint a one of them that's perfect.
Aint one that I wouldn't gladly do everything to the end of my days with either...

Agree completely. Good USA made shotguns went down the same path a long time ago. Now the most often question is “Does anyone know anything about the current Hashish 12 Gauge Semi Auto?” Not everywhere, but here for sure.

We lost the claim to being a good gun making country years ago.

Most here today want throw away firearms. Use them for a little time then buy something else. Americans for the most part don’t want “good guns”.

My 3 stainless Ruger Hawkeyes are installed in McM Hunter stocks so that they feel about as much alike as is reasonably possible.

I like rifles and cartridges, so I buy them when they interest me enough to pull out my wallet. I seldom buy new rifles, as most wholesalers don't want to sell to small non-stocking kitchen table dealers like me. Ten years ago most wholesalers weren't so particular, but time change and so have my buying habits.

Yes. That is Rugers best feeling stock. I'm glad I have one

A wood stocked rifle with nice deep bluing is nice to look at. But most just get locked in a safe and aren't hunted hard because it might rain or get scratched. I'll take a SS, carbon fiber, cerakoted rifle that I can leave outside in my SxS, beat it around for weeks at a time and do nothing to it besides shoot stuff with it.

Life is too damn short to hunt with an ugly gun.
Which is why, I barely look at the new guns when in a gun shop.
I have not been impressed with anything the gun companies have produced in a number of years.
For the same or less money for what they want for most of the run of the mill ugly crap, a guy can buy a classic quality rifle with 3-4 generations of use left in it.
Like a Belgium Browning Safari Grade, Winchester Model 70, or a vintage Remington 721, etc..........

I have no found a Remington Model 7 or a Tikka r3 light or compact. in .223 or .243Win. for a long time. Is it just Wisconsin, or is this all over the place.

That trigger isn’t that bad man. Granted it’s not as smooth as you make the old ones….but it’s not horrible.

G-dub,

That styer .223’is pretty interesting. I like it.

I heard at our LGS that Kimber is on it's last leg with long guns

When savage and ruger had the throw away guns come out and then Remington joined them I posted on here that it was a race to the bottom. We are almost to the bottom.

The only rifles for hunting I’m interested in aren’t made in USA but made in Europe. Pretty sad.

One big difference might be that the "budget" rifles of the 60s and 70s would be considered middle tier rifles today -- walnut, blued, no plastic, open sights. My hunch is that the average hunter from the WW2 generation owned one or two rifles and did everything with them.

D, I agree. And one of us should have kept that Classic Stainless 7mm-08. Or kept selling it back and forth….

Now I want to go find it.

I imagine they probably sat in on a conference call

I think they've been selling a lot of Hunters.

The LGS guys could be right, but I'd be surprised if they knew any more about it than I do.




With the prices that nicer 700's, 70's and 77's have been going for, my last few rifle purchases have been Cooper.

A shame Bill Ruger isn't still with us, because I doubt we'd be in this predicament.

.

You know you aren't the only person with this belief. One of the reasons I only look at used rifles these days. There are always great deals to be had in the used rifle market. You'd know that, if you sold some. Instead you sell brand new chidt.. And yes, most of it is by and large just that..

The MOA trigger is a great trigger. It just isn't the simple tried and true oldstyle model 70 trigger. I think that is the big gripe Lee has with it. It chaps my hide as well, why Browning chose to change a great design. Also, the MOA can be made very good with just a spring change. All of the ones I installed an Erniethegunsmith spring in, dropped the pull weight down to 2 1/2 pounds. 1 was 2 3/8 pounds and it broke like a glass rod. Over the years, I've probably changed 10 springs and that is all that is needed..

Actually...here in Australia that amount is pretty much bottom of the heap cheap, we pay through the nose for firearms. You lot don't seem to realise how good you have it.

You would be incorrect.


Peruse this and see if I am kidding.

Used guns

Here is another.

Oz guns.

You're literally the only person in this entire thread thinking or talking about Australia which, yet again, you already know. Context matters... and much as I like our friends down under, y'all aren't who rifle producers have in mind when they reset the market.

I forgot the whole Australia angle. Forgive me

Some of you are saying the 77 Hawkeye is discontinued but I just checked Rugers website and it still shows Hawkeyes???

I think what people are saying is that you can find Ruger Americans everywhere but try and find a new Hawkeye for sale.

Ok that makes sense. That lines up with my experience as well

Negative. We sell tons of used guns. Thousands each year actually. I buy collections and take trades daily. I’d say we have an excellent handle on the used market. We get to see what the consumer expects to receive from his/her used firearm and we also know what the used firearm will bring.

This is how I see it. I agree with SAS post. The issue is always that seems everyone hunting has a different want. Chambering, stock, trigger, barrel twist, barrel length and on and on. Even 10 years ago I couldn't find a production rifle to suit me so I went with a 700 xcrii as a place to start. So with a edge stock and a new trigger I ended up with a rifle I am 90% happy with. And even then I would have been better off just going custom.

Traditional, wood/blued Hawkeyes are discontinued, not counting the African.

I agree.

Somewhere a village is missing its idiot.

Another point of interest….

The used market is where it is because guys have nothing to trade for! That goes back to my original post. They bring their Ruger, Remington, Kimber or Brand X into the store to trade for another Ruger, Remington, Kimber or Brand X in a different chambering and there aren’t any new Ruger, Remington, Kimber or Brand X’s to trade for. The manufacturers aren’t producing rifles in quality similar to theirs and they aren’t trading down to a Ruger American or a Savage Axis. Guys will trade for equal or greater quality, but they won’t go down in perceived quality. If we get lucky they’ll sell us the rifle and we can put it on the used rack to appease another treasure hunter. That’s basically what’s happened. Common, quality sporting rifles have turned into treasures because manufacturers aren’t producing quality, common sporting rifles. And the quality used rifles continue to rise in price because that’s what the consumer wants!

Call me the anti Christ but the new Winchesters seem pretty good to me.



I can deal with a Tikka here and there as well.



I just don’t believe the sky has fallen that hard just yet. I know it ain’t great but stuff is around if you look.

Agree, re: M70. There was a while, pre-COVID, when TSS had a bunch of FWTs and sporter for $750ish. Wish I'd grabbed a few, along with the 325s CDNN had for $600 😒😢.

Actually the used market is where it's at if you know what you are doing (which of course you do). We picked up a number of post 94's from a family of a collector who just wanted to get rid of them since they sold the pre 64's for what they thought was good money.

I snagged one of the 325’s for 600. Excellent rifle so far as well.

The Winchester M70's coming out of Portugal right now are pretty dang nice!

I agree. Hate to admit it but they’re pretty good. For a 6 dollar trigger spring to fix the pull it’s hard to complain about them.

Yours looks like a hammer as well.

Ok thanks

I guess I unwittingly supported SAS's position...bought a vanguard talus today. Hell of a nice rifle for $799.

So, yes, if nice rifles are available we will pony up the cash.

100%%%%%% I hate brakes in both look and feel(on my ears)

If we would get with the program and stop pretending suppressors are going to turn everyone into mafia assassins or stealth poachers, I wouldn't mind a threaded barrel to keep the kids from going deaf. But no thanks on a brake... if the recoil is that bad, install a new pad or get a new gun. Very obnoxious at the range.

All the times I've seen threads here where someone wasn't smart enough to figure out what gun/caliber/scope/twist rate they wanted. I never thought of that. Interesting.

I bought one as well from Impact Guns. Made in Germany and I really like the rifle overall. The bolt is cheaper and the barreled action is not stainless, but it feels good, is very accurate and quite shallowly it looks good!

For a reason I can't really explain, I've been wanting to get a new model 70 featherweight in 22-250. Not sure why but I think they are cool.

Gonna shoot that tikka tomorrow too!

I like the winchester but, again, can't seem to find it order it around here.

I’d really love a Featherweight 22 Creed myself. Or an Ackley. I think that’d be a sweet rifle.

Great, now you’ve got my wheels turning

I figured I could shoot it as is for a while, but when the mood strikes, I have a 7 twist bartlien propped up in the corner that could be turned down to a FW contour easy enough!

Just need to find one, no luck so far online

Me too. I like the idea of a hot 22 featherweight. That thought has never occurred to me until now. Great….

That’d be a stellar rifle. Same idea here. Almost grabbed one Classic from Perry County Firearms. I lagged.

I can't hunt with wood stocked and blued rifles anymore.

I have several nice ones that have been beaten to hell. Scraped on trucks, tumbled down skree fields, scraped on blinds.

Those have been relegated to the back of the safe. It's synthetics for me. They are just meat collectors after all...

I just got this one back from the gunsmith. It’s all Remington parts except the trigger and the recoil lug. I built it because Remington wouldn’t offer the CDL with the DM.

If they're already beat up, why not keep after it with them?

Post up some pics of those beat to hell nice ones so we can know when to stop hunting them.

I like 'em Tender. Hint...................

That's my thoughts too. That and I'm not going to live forever and I don't care how nice my firearms are for whoever ends up with them

Did Barrett cut the FC to focus on gov contracts (as gets touted a lot online) or was it more likely a profit margin issue similar to Kimber and the Montana?

I'm not surprised to see that others besides me don't understand your reluctance to hunt your wood stocked rifles.



But this puzzles me even more.

I view rifles very differently than this, and I believe many others that post regularly on this forum do too.

Given your level of interest in them, I can't help but wonder why you even view and post here?

I dropped by one of my LGS's today and found a pretty good selection of new rifles and not just the lower end "price point" stuff oft mentioned above.

Interested to hear which brands were on the shelf.

In the local place I went to they had savage and Weatherby and Christensen and henry and Ruger and Sako and a few tikkas.

[quote=JSTUART]


Humblebrag much?

Yeah I thought the same thing. I'm just going to run right out and buy some Rigby's and Westley Richards. There's never been a better time. How do you spell o-u-t o-f t-o-u-c-h. 🤣

Local shop has 2 new Remingtons in, both are chambered in 30-06. One adl/sps blued for $629 and one stainless/bdl/camo for $749. Those two and an old tang safety 77 in 300 win are the nicer ones that have came in lately.

$600 for a forking adl. Never thought I would see that...lol

Since I cant find a Model 7 or a Tikka t3 light I looked at a Ruger American compact in .243 Win. It is light, 6 lbs, 18" barrel for $480 . Does that sound like a decent price? There is another RAR down the road for $450 but it is not a compact. I think I will go with the Ruger. I am sure it is not the quality of a Tikka and likely not the Mod.7 neither. One guy on here is a gunsmith and he sees what guns are a problem and what ones are not. He said the Ruger has been very good and problem free. However, I am not sure it is a real quality gun. Sure, most say it's accurate but what about the rest of the gun. The springs, the machinery ETC. counts too. For $480 I am likely going to trade in my TC Encore 50 cal. with the 45-70 gov. barrel to boot . Not sure what he will give me for it though.

They aren't making encores anymore...make sure you really want to get rid of it...

I thought that too. I just dont use it at all anymore. I hope he gives me a good price.

Went in to a shop in Leesburg, VA Friday. Pretty slim pickins, except for ARs. Apparently everyone now has “enough” of those. Saw a couple of interesting .22s, but only a couple. Lots of shotguns, but nothing like the nice old Browning I scored there on my last trip.

Had a few old, interesting guns, but they’re excessively proud of them. Don’t know if they’re willing to dicker…..

Went into a gun store in a neighboring town. We travelled there because there was a gun show going on. They had some nice old (current) guns that would be good to have. They had a pair of stainless model 7 rifles, a Winchester Extreme Weather and a newer Mountain Rifle with a nice synthetic stock, stainless pencil barrel. That was just a handful of things that I noticed, but nice to see something different. While I was thinking gun prices were high, and everything was getting even more expensive than it was a few months ago, these seemed normally priced. The Model 7 308 was $675, the Model 7 7-08 with leupold rail was $720 and the Mountain Rifle wasnt too bad, less than I have seen on ads, I think it was less than 800? Lever guns were through the roof. A Marlin stainless laminate 410 was like $2800! They also had a pair of Remington 700 XCR II in aftermarket stocks with rings. Looked like nice rifles. They were in the $1000 range.

You can hunt with those. It just depends on your brain.. They are all only tools. wood stocks with dings. Its a tool. Not a show piece. Use em. Who cares.

I will say that SS Synthetic has been or feels more reliable to me in the weather though.

The sense of older was better is interesting in a group that complains about obsolete twist rates but then again a good excuse to tinker with a new barrel in a cool new caliber. If all I need is a deer hunting gun I can buy a Mossberg patriot in 7-08 for $370 put a $200 Burris’s FF2 in a set of decent rings & for less than $650 kill deer for 30 years.

Had a first time elk hunter mid20’s this year use his budget stainless Mossberg in 7mm RM with a Zeiss v4 kill his first buck 1 shot at 200 then killed a cow at 360 yards kept shooting because she was still upright 3 out of 4 not bad for someone who never pulled a trigger until 3 years ago.

Will he think less of that rifle because it doesn’t have a walnut stock & has an ugly thread protector hanging on the end? No way that will be his primary rifle for many years.

I can hunt with walnut/blued rifles. And i agree that the market currently sucks, but there are gems if you look

Gem Link from 24hr classifieds

I can see and appreciate the benefits of some of todays materials used in rifles. Being from the pre metric era, my preference is still nicely figured wood and bright blued steel.

+2 on that!! I had a $4000 ss/plastic rifle and traded it straight across for a $2000 field grade walnut blued steel Sauer 200. Happily.

Me too! I've owned some very nice ss/synthetic stocked rifles (ULA, Kimber, Barrett, MG Arms, Rifles Inc, HS Precision, full customs and more). But the rifles that stick have nice wood and blued steel.

The Sako 85 Bavarians are nice as are the Sauer 404s.

Some 2021 Suckage




Christensen Ridgeline, 300 PRC



Tried the Hornady Factory ELD-M"s and ELD-X's but was not satisfied.

H-1000 and RL-26 did not make the cut.





But with the 180 Gr. Accubonds........



Do believe it has potential!




More 2021 Suckage........

Mounted scopes yesterday



Top: Sako Finnlight, 6.5 x 55SE

Bottom: Custom Sako AV, 6.5 x 55SE

and took them to the range to see what gives........



Two shots each to get on paper @ 25 yds



4,5 & 6, then two clicks up and right then 7. That should work @100 for the AV





Ran out of time, but think the Finnlight will be a shooter also.

ya!

GWB

stainless tikkas are getting damn hard to find

SAS used to regularly have them sub 600$

SS Tikkas cost $1650 in Finland..

Pinto's has had a stainless 30-06 sitting for quite a while on their list. NIB for $750 I think.

Gunsmiths, custom or semi custom.

Pretty easy fix if you don't like what's currently offered from manufacturers.

It looks like Tikka discontinued all the stainless CTR's too. No sign of them on the website.

Dang, I am glad I was just able to grab one from EuroOptic.

Lucky sob, I only noticed because I was looking to place an order lol

Haven't put one together,since yesterday. Hint.







Just sayin'..................

Looks familiar

What kinda' scope is that? Looks sorta' promising. Hint.....................

That Analthon really gets around.

Scotty, Stick.

What’s your thoughts on the Athlon scopes vs Tract Toric UHD?

Stick, what are these sexy carbon’s ? Howa actions ?




🦫

Tough one to spell too.

I'm pretty sure that's the Chinese made Analton that became the darling of a thread last Fall. Chinese optic in Chinese rings. Beijing 2022 edition.

I’m kinda waiting for it to explode in a ginormous rice explosion but so far it’s holding tight. My only complaint is what Kingston says, it’s made in communist China for an American company. The scope itself is really good. I wanted a FFP, Mil, illuminated scope for this set up and my next option that I would’ve liked would have been a Trijicon at 1300 bucks whereas my price for this 4-20 was 440 to my door. The magnification ring and parallax adjustments are smooth. I haven’t done extensive tracking yet but during zeroing it moved properly. I’ll try a tall target test and see what it does.

Again, if it explodes into a poof of dust, I deserve it, but I don’t think it’s going to. I has brass guts in the turrets and feels club like heavy.

No experience with Tract.

I agree 100%. The past few years I've been rebarreling nice old classic walnut rifles instead of buying new. I'd buy a Ruger African if I could get one and maybe another Mauser M12 but that's about it.

It is Fascinatingly Fhuqking HILARIOUS,how little it takes for Couchbound Karens to cry...the "lucky" kchunts. Hint. Congratulations?!?

Fortunately for them,Imagination and Pretend are free,so even they can "afford" to "contribute",whether it extolling their exceedingly long list of very WELL founded Insecurities,or to brandish their Homoerotic Fantasies in the first hand. At least they can gawk pictures of wares that exist,if only to fuel more Insecurities. Hint. Fhuqking LAUGHING!

Now for them who actually shoot,I reckon the Howie Mini's to be a right proper platform. Stocks are under 17 ounces,the metal is right,bows are heavy in OEM guise at 22"(264 Grendels),but shine brightly at 19". One can drive the polymer DBM and proprietary schit mag,or go BDL ala a coupla routes. I'm of the opinion that increasing COAL and losing polymer,to improve handling,at the "expense" of losing(1) round in the belly,is smart bidness(more BDL coming in the Mail). Hint.





With balance/handling pinpointed,it's likely no thang to dupe and nestle them sub 17 ounces. 7" RPM Bart' for me,with some Lapooey brass and ain't it a fhuqking hoot,that Crying Karens "get" to read about it!?! Magfed .585 BC Smooches,is gonna force the gals to Re-Google all over again. Hint. Fhuqking LAUGHING!





I happen to prefer the 22PPC AFI to either 22BR and/or 6BR,but pardon my shooting it all. Hint. Fhuqking LAUGHING!



Now as to glass that'll track,repeat,hold zero,flaunt daylight bright illumination,house locking elevation/windage turrets,(10) Mil's per circle and has a robust zero stop,I can see where that'd go against EVERYTHING that The Do Nothing Gang "does". The close parallax and 35+ Mil's of erector travel(don't forget to loosen the zero stop on the NIB's),likely don't suck either. 'Course that's "mean",as you'd hafta' actually fhuqking shoot,to savvy. Not that Karens don't read my every word,gawk every Splendid Pixel and root for the mail(weather has been tough ladies,but there's a goodly pile I need to go through. Hint. Fhuqking LAUGHING!





Looking forward to some Fresh Whine,through their personalized masks. Hopefully the 4-16x Arken Gen2 FFP Mil Lit Bitch,arrives today. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!.................

It's "cute" that he learned the word "Karen"

And cuter yet that he posted ten great pictures, first-hand info on a new rifle most have never seen, a new scope that's selling thousands, and a cartridge that does things no factory chambering can do in a similar size package.

Stick, thanks for the comparison pic of the Howa mag length. I'm awaiting delivery of one of those Athlons as we speak so I appreciate you fellas posting up.

DooshMike,

What's REALLY cute,is your Clueless Sniveling Brokedicktitude and the simplistic Fact that you've yet to turn a lick in your "life"...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

Luckily for you Imagination,Pretend and Hurt Feelers reports are free,so you can "afford" to "contribute". Hint. Fhuqking LAUGHING!

Might I suggest Imaginary Pretend Ignore,as you stay glued to my EVERY word and Splendid Pixels? Pardon wares that exist,upsetting you so. Hint.

Bless your heart for Whining,Trying and Crying Karen.

Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!.................






Sock',

The increase in COAL was nice in OEM guise,though I only ran 200rds of 120 Burners through it hastily and tossed it into the Mail on the same Vacation. I'd take a little more wall thickness on the magbox,but I'm hard on schit,on the average. Hint.

It's been a loonnnggggggggg fhuqking time,since I've asked for an OEM spout back and I'da' pulled it myself,were it not requisite for the Dupe Template. Long way of saying,the Little Bitch shot rather exceptionally as issued,though chopped to 19". I flogged on it purty good and tried to get it hot enough to sizzle spit,while it kept throwing 120's where the etched reticle were aimed. Here's the last 5rds I had loaded,dumped into 100yd paper and schit is still round and even on 6x,the mirage was fhuqking STUPID,due to barrel heat. Fhuqker wouldn't do a TRUE Sizzle,but it was assuredly Hotter Than Fhuqk Hint.





I figure the greater contoured versions of the Mini are more apt to be tripped over and the Skinny Minny Spout Swap hardly a big fhuqking deal. Hint.



While I'm certainly NO Fan of the 264 Grendel,the Little OEM Mini Bitch,"forced" me into building a Krunchenticker chambered same and in Stealth Camo. Hint.



All of which makes me love the 22PPC AFI even more. Hint......................(grin)

That's one sorry sumb!sh

Tickles,

Don't be so hard on yourself,luckily even for you,it's free to gawk Splendid Pixels and Whine aloud...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

You Melting Snowflakes are a "rugged" lot. Though in fairness,it isn't like you could even begin to "do" for yourself. Hint.

Bless your heart,for doing your best Karen.

Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!...................

Cute that she's so attached to the term Karen even after it's mostly fallen out of vogue everywhere else

There’s a lot of sexiness in the Howa 2022 Catalog.

https://www.howausa.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/2022_LSI_Howa_Catalog_LQ.pdf


Ultra light frames, and same with carbon barrels, if that’s a guys jam.

Howa makes a solid receiver, or at least they used to....I have an old, first production custom build from Gunwerks in 7WSM back before they caught fire and started turning out $12k builds.

Bansner frame, Slabbed Howa receiver. The only unknown is the barrel mfg. I’ve talked to Gunwerks twice over the years, both times they could only confirm they built it, no build information on the rifle.

It’s been a flawless shooting and a operating jewel.



🦫

PS

The VX6 went down the road.

That’s a sharp rig Beav.

I’m a fan of Howas myself. I especially like when I catch their barreled actions on sale. Good fun guns.

Same here...Even the Weatherby Vanguards with Howa actions seemed to consistently out performance the Mark5 rifles that cost twice as much.

Weird, I tell ya.

🤷🏽‍♀️🦫

Yep, I’ve seen the same. We have a few of them in the family and they’ve made good hunting rifles.

We have a MK5 as well but it was a gift and it does shoot well but the Howas by and large have been good, solid rifles and yeah, like you said a 1/3 or 1/2 as much.

DooshMike,

I musta' missed the Memo,stating your Crying Karen Kchuntitude has done anything other than increase...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

At least you can afford to read about wares and ogle pics,while making shooting sounds with your Imagination and Pretend,from your Couchbound Kchunt. Hint.

Bless your heart for Whining,Trying and Crying Karen.

Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!.............







Beav/Retzs,

Howies don't aspook me and I'll ALWAYS take (2) lugs over 6 or 9,if only because I shoot 'em all,to the chagrin of Crying Karens everywhere. Hint.(grin)

All of my 7 Whizzums are Montucky(3) or 700(1) and I hear good thangs about said chambering. Though the whole fhuqking neighborhood soaked up the Brownell's Howie Seex Kreedmire Barreled Action Sale. Nary a complaint,which is anything but "surprising". Hint.

The 6 ARC Mini Bitches,are gonna fhuqking rewrite The Book. Tempted to M5 DBM a S/S Seven 223AI and have it sip from AR alloy mags in 22PPC AFI. Hint.

Somewhat akin to THE Magnificent Seven. Hint.





Decisions/decisions and that noise you hear,is DooshMike and Tickles Googlin'. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!.................

Stick

Agree that the 6 ARC could be the next love child that everyone will say they fathered.

Explain your high expectations on said chambering. I’ve already thrown my condoms away. I want one.

🦫

A little Howa 6 with decent mags or a plain old BDL style magazine would be something for my little fella to get behind as well. I’d think in a bolt gun you could gas them a little more if you wanted. I’m not sure I’d care since it’s been excellent in my 18” AR. Kinda nice having near 243 speeds and using any bullet I care to in it. Plus, they are supporting it with a pile of load data.

I’m still emptying out brass and haven’t loaded for it yet, but I’m betting LVR and whatever bullet I have will work fine though.

I was trying to nudge my buddy, SandBully, towards one for his up and coming animal slaying son.

I’d bolt gun the 6, but that just me. I’m intrigued, especially at the price point for a Howa. I could build one, but why jump through logistical hoops to locate components when Howa already made me one. Grins.

🦫

Exactly. Most tend to shoot well and Howa seems to have caught on with what most folks want for twist as well. The 6 Creed is a solid rifle.

Good schit simply sells itself and Mechanics matter,even to them who are oblivious. Hint.

You reap the handiness/dandyness of a trite parcel,who's RPM,COAL and Throat Geometry jive. Droolers will Drool upon same,the astute will say "about fhuqking time!" and the mild mannerisms,coupled with performance welllllllllll beyond that which meats the eye,will simply connect dots by default. Pun be fhuqking intended. Hint.



One can simply reduce case length(as compared to a 223) and increase boolit length(BC) and incorporate same in a rather modest parcel,that is a Sledge Hammer Sonofabitch,with dick nothing recoil. ES is fhuqking amazing,killer brass abounds and Terminal Effects will shake Crying Karens to their quivering core. You get a .530BC at an easy 2800fps in a short spout,with 31 fhuqking grains of powder. Hint.




The good Dr. Lou was certainly onto sumptin' and Improving same in volume,don't make Critters "safer". It's one of them win/win scenarios,where the Theory is VERY fhuqking sound,yet it exceeds same in Application. I've a "few" .243" bore chamberings,from which to extrapolate and often on the same day. Hint.




Round up,increase BC and launch speeds while reducing recoil even further and you've a 22PPC AFI. Hint...................

Blah blah blah Karen. Blah blah blah Karen. That's what I heard

Can’t imagine how throwing 108-110 grains wouldn’t be appealing to those who push a .224 of 77grains for maximum flight aeronautics. Advantage, increased bullet seating length, better (BC) and still recoil capable to shoot a rifle off your face.

Win

🦫

For those with 6 arc bolt guns, what barrel lengths are you using to get 2800 fps out of a Hornady 108? I can get right at 2700 out of my AR setup with book max of LVR, and the 108 shoots flat as hell at that speed.

I can imagine another 100 fps in a reasonably short barrel would be pretty damn awesome.

DooshMike,

I REALLY "believe" that you "don't care" as you Whine aloud perpetually about your Brokedicktitude...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

Perhaps for MAXIMUM "effect" count how many times you respond to my Posts,while running away like THE Clueless Bitch you are,from all things The Rifle. Hint.

Bless your heart for Whining,Trying and Crying Karen.

Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!..............







For folks who actually shoot,

Hornie brass is soft Dog Schit,Starline is better and Lapooey excellent. Hint.

I'd like to swoon .224" 77TMK's but can't,because I actually shoot the fhuqking things. Hint.(grin)

Pass scopes that track,repeat and hold zero,if only for fhuqking starters. Hint.

Just sayin'.................

Thread jumping from my Kimber of Oregon tampon bleed of terror about rings/bases.

Jumped on the Warne M888/842M bases. Have a stock pile of 30mm rings to choose from. Pulled down a new SWFA hd 5-20x50 mils scope I’d been saving for when one of my Zeiss V4’s takes a dump.



The 223 super varminter is gonna be a heavy girl. That’s alright. I hate walking around when shooting at small creatures.

Locked in ~ questions answered ~ done.

🦫

108gr eld-m has a higher bc then an 88

don't know what an 88 does on flesh but i've shot whitetail, mule deer, elk and antelope with a 108 and it does what it's supposed to do.

then again so does the 77gr tmk. minus elk. don't, won't, can't elk with a 223. gotta go with the booomer 6br

anybody want to buy a pile of 140 and 147gr eld-ms?

Pardon my shooting a "few" Lit Bitch Swiffer 5-20's and LOVING same. Hint.



Add 2grs of mass and a Beer Can trumps a 108 and pardon my shooting it all(and then some). Though a 108 cain't match 88 launch speeds,if only fhuqking OBVIOUSLY. Hint.

Lets not "forget" the velocity increase,in conjunction with the BC increase. Hint. Fhuqking LAUGHING!

I'm no .224" 77 TMK Fan,mainly because I've got/shot them. Hint.

"Tell" me more. Hint.

Fhuqking LAUGHING!...................

It looks like you mounted that scope clocked toward 11:00.

Does that short fat 22 PPC AFI have any of the finickiness of other proportionally short fat cases when working up loads.

Howa has a big order from me….

I’ll pass along the goodness as soon as I get some in.

Please tell them they’d sell more rifles if they used stainless and normal bottom metal.

6mm ARC please.

Thanks!

🦫

Where can a howa be had other than Gunbroker at WAY high prices? My LGS is having no luck finding one for me.

Same here. I’d be in for one or so. I’d bet if I had one my brother wouldn’t be far behind either. He tends to let me test the waters.

As far as the Grendel’s and others being finicky, I haven’t seen it myself. Usually they’re about as easy as anything else. At least in the few AR’s I’ve ran them in.

I would think any of the 6mm Hornady offerings would be pretty great at ARC speeds. The 105 HPBT has been damned good on deer for us from 6CM to 240 WBY.

And I’ll have to be odd man out cause man the 77 TMK has been wicked on coyotes and deer for us. It is a bombshell and about the easiest bullet I’ve used in any 224 rifle. I’ll repent for the lost BC later on I guess

So, why would you guys buy a Howa vs a Weatherby Vanguard? Of the few I have seen, the Vanguard seemed to be the better rifle, even though the actions are by Howa. Better fit, finish, stock, etc.

There's no mini from the Vanguard line.

I’ve never seen any difference in the metal. The stocks aren’t my cup of tea on either one. I’d bet a nickel the newer Howa carbon fiber stocks and when they used Banser were light years ahead of anything Wby put on their Vanguards. Just what I see from my grid square.

Well 6 arc ammo is ordered since just ordering g brass doesn’t seem to be a option. Maybe the carbon mini rifles will be available sooner rather than later.

Totally agree with the OP.

You can like and be interested in a lot of guns without really wanting to or having to own them. Or seeing your own as more than tools.

I agree about the metal, as it's pretty much the same. I think the Hogue Howa stocks are too heavy and chunky, and the LOP is too long for my liking, especially when wearing a lot of clothes. I've put Vanguard stocks on Howa rifles, and it was at best, only a slight improvement. IMO the Alpine with the Banser stock was Howas best offering. The carbon fiber stocks should be a huge leap forward.

As far as the Mini Action goes, it needs to be offered with bottom metal and a trimmer, lighter weight stock.

UN-Mini 22PPC AFI. Hint..............

holy rusty bolt face.

whats velocity with 88's/90's?

swfa 5-20 are underrated. would love a 'tweener 4-16.

22PPC AFI Mini/Maxi Tweener. Hint.






I MUCH prefer the 2-12x Gen2 Lit Bitch to the 3-9x,as do everyone else that's seen one. Hint.



Magnificent fhuqking chambering. Hint.....................

god has spoken enough said!

poopoo,

The only thing you Whining CLUELESS Brokedicks "shoot",are your mouths and Imaginations...you "lucky" kchunt. Hint. Congratulations?!?

Now as Krunchentickers go,I'm a 22PPC AFI Slut there too,as opposed to it's .243" bore Kissin' Cousin,if only because I've multiples of each. Hint.



Self Shuckin' 88 Smoochess,is a right proper Mind Fhuqk. Hint.

Just sayin'....................

Smoochies!

Valentine's is right around the corna'

I'm in for a carbon 6arc!

Howa Carbon Stalker 6.5 Grendel would nice. Wouldn't mind a sporter or heavy barrel 7.62x39 either.

I ended up selling my TC Encore and a 45-70 barrel for $400. I gave the gun shop an extra $64 and I bought the Ruger RAR Compact with 18" barrel . I like the TC muzzle loader and I even liked the 45-70. The light 45 -70 barrel was so light it kicked like a horse so I rarely used it, and I dont use my inlines anymore cause I would rather shoot my TC Renegades and Hawkin. I put an old 34 yr old Leopold 4x12 on it . I thin it will be good.

I would be interested in a mini dipped in Yote in the 6m ARC.

Hi Karen

The scope market is what absolutely ticks me off. Not alot of options out there at each levell that doesn't have the gawdy open turrets and/or the calculus and geometry exam for a freaking reticle.

I like illumination, but geez, it seems like a plain plex, or circle plex get fewer and far between.


Edit to add: maybe I'm not the majority, but in southern middle tennessee, it's tough to shoot over 200 yds if your hunting, and open turrets aint made for thickets.

Same here

Big Stick, is that a Helos BTR scope you are recommending? Recoil and bump roof so far?

I think you may find this interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xu57qPO7mDg

Looking forward to this.

This. Between the used options and restocking, issues with blister pack, cheaply built, ugly rifles are easy enough to overcome. Given where prices have gone lately for well-built working man's durables such as Marlin 336s, Model 70s, Ruger 77s and Rem 700s or 7600s I'd say there's alot of guys who are either not interested in, or not trusting this new trend in rifles. Unfortunately the scope situation you refer is more difficult to overcome with the used market.

I agree with the OP. I’m in the market for a bolt action rifle but I don’t see much in the way of a walnut stocked .270 win. Not saying they’re not available it’s just the ones I’ve looked at were more than I wanted to pay. I get the whole inflation thing but I’m just not a fan of synthetic rifles, although they do serve their purpose

As with everything else, when there are enough customers willing to pay what it costs to make something at a profit, that something will get made.

“Customers” can include jobbers, wholesalers, or retailers. Darrik has proven that a number of times, along with Lipsey’s and others closer to the end user.

The closest woodstock rifle I’ve come across that approaches being affordable is the Browning AB3 made by Miroku. Everything else is $1000+. I think Miroku makes fine guns so I often wonder why a made in Japan gun costs more than a made in USA gun. Think I might have to take a good hard look at synthetic stock rifles as those seem the most budget friendly

Miroku does indeed make fine guns, and has for quite some time. I think it’s just what they do, and they don’t cut every corner possible like many others do. I think Japanese workers are well paid and take pride in their work too. I have a couple Browning falling blocks and they’re pretty much flawless. Just ordered a new Citori 725 and hope it’s as nice.

Rifles died 20 years ago when the plastic took over
I have no idea what’s out there these days I don’t give a second look
There is
A glut of fantastic old rifles
To be had. Why would anyone bother wit anything new

So, any news on when the shipment is coming in??
Thanks

Shortaction smoker: I have been using the "mint condition/used Rifle market" for a long time now (last 10 years or so).
There are lots of them out there for your perusal.
Sadly the prices for the mint condition/used Rifles I really enjoy are rising at a noticeable rate of recent.
Good luck in your search (wait?).
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy