Does something get relabelled as allegory if it doesn't come true?
There is quite bit to this question.
Note that in the Book of Jonah, he laments that he was in the belly of the great fish “forever.” He was not. But, as I recall, the term ”forever” is used over 50 times with regard to events that were clearly not “for all time.” Like an impatient person might complain that they have been “waiting forever” to be picked up at the mall.
Also note that in Matthew 12….. “Jesus spoke of Jonah’s ordeal as a real historical event. He used it as a typological metaphor for His own crucifixion and resurrection: ‘As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth…’....” In this case some would hold that it is purely metaphor and others would hold that it was also a real event.
Also, Jude 1:7 describes the destruction of Sodom and uses the term “… punishment of eternal fire.” Well, Sodom is not burning today so what does this mean? The term “eternal fire” can be seen in reference to God Himself as an eternal fire. This raises another interpretation topic…. There is a difference between the action of “punishing for eternity” and the term “eternal punishment.”
Some hold to the idea that there may be a one time “punishment” but that punishment lasts for “eternity.” This is very different from the ongoing action of “punishing” for eternity.
Then there is the problem of understanding. Jesus spoke in parables for a number of reasons, one was to conceal a meaning to some and reveal a meaning to others. But that may be a subject for another time.
Last edited by TF49; 01/19/22. Reason: spel/clarity
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
Does something get relabelled as allegory if it doesn't come true?
There is quite bit to this question.
Note that in the Book of Jonah, he laments that he was in the belly of the great fish “forever.” He was not. But, as I recall, the term ”forever” is used over 50 times with regard to events that were clearly not “for all time.” Like an impatient person might complain that they have been “waiting forever” to be picked up at the mall.
Also note that in Matthew 12….. “Jesus spoke of Jonah’s ordeal as a real historical event. He used it as a typological metaphor for His own crucifixion and resurrection: ‘As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth…’....” In this case some would hold that it is purely metaphor and others would hold that it was also a real event.
Also, Jude 1:7 describes the destruction of Sodom and uses the term “… punishment of eternal fire.” Well, Sodom is not burning today so what does this mean? The term “eternal fire” can be seen in reference to God Himself as an eternal fire. This raises another interpretation topic…. There is a difference between the action of “punishing for eternity” and the term “eternal punishment.”
Some hold to the idea that there may be a one time “punishment” but that punishment lasts for “eternity.” This is very different from the ongoing action of “punishing” for eternity.
Then there is the problem of understanding. Jesus spoke in parables for a number of reasons, one was to conceal a meaning to some and reveal a meaning to others. But that may be a subject for another time.
If the meaning is not clear and no one can agree to what it might be, it's pretty much meaningless.
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by mauserand9mm
Originally Posted by Raspy
Whatever you said...everyone knows you are a lying jerk.
That's a bold assertion. Point out where you think I lied.
Does something get relabelled as allegory if it doesn't come true?
There is quite bit to this question.
Note that in the Book of Jonah, he laments that he was in the belly of the great fish “forever.” He was not. But, as I recall, the term ”forever” is used over 50 times with regard to events that were clearly not “for all time.” Like an impatient person might complain that they have been “waiting forever” to be picked up at the mall.
Also note that in Matthew 12….. “Jesus spoke of Jonah’s ordeal as a real historical event. He used it as a typological metaphor for His own crucifixion and resurrection: ‘As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth…’....” In this case some would hold that it is purely metaphor and others would hold that it was also a real event.
Also, Jude 1:7 describes the destruction of Sodom and uses the term “… punishment of eternal fire.” Well, Sodom is not burning today so what does this mean? The term “eternal fire” can be seen in reference to God Himself as an eternal fire. This raises another interpretation topic…. There is a difference between the action of “punishing for eternity” and the term “eternal punishment.”
Some hold to the idea that there may be a one time “punishment” but that punishment lasts for “eternity.” This is very different from the ongoing action of “punishing” for eternity.
Then there is the problem of understanding. Jesus spoke in parables for a number of reasons, one was to conceal a meaning to some and reveal a meaning to others. But that may be a subject for another time.
So where we have Jesus describing his return in power and glory to usher in the rule of God on Earth, he did not mean it to be a literal description or a literal return? That it was not meant to happen?
Does something get relabelled as allegory if it doesn't come true?
There is quite bit to this question.
Note that in the Book of Jonah, he laments that he was in the belly of the great fish “forever.” He was not. But, as I recall, the term ”forever” is used over 50 times with regard to events that were clearly not “for all time.” Like an impatient person might complain that they have been “waiting forever” to be picked up at the mall.
Also note that in Matthew 12….. “Jesus spoke of Jonah’s ordeal as a real historical event. He used it as a typological metaphor for His own crucifixion and resurrection: ‘As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth…’....” In this case some would hold that it is purely metaphor and others would hold that it was also a real event.
Also, Jude 1:7 describes the destruction of Sodom and uses the term “… punishment of eternal fire.” Well, Sodom is not burning today so what does this mean? The term “eternal fire” can be seen in reference to God Himself as an eternal fire. This raises another interpretation topic…. There is a difference between the action of “punishing for eternity” and the term “eternal punishment.”
Some hold to the idea that there may be a one time “punishment” but that punishment lasts for “eternity.” This is very different from the ongoing action of “punishing” for eternity.
Then there is the problem of understanding. Jesus spoke in parables for a number of reasons, one was to conceal a meaning to some and reveal a meaning to others. But that may be a subject for another time.
So where we have Jesus describing his return in power and glory to usher in the rule of God on Earth, he did not mean it to be a literal description or a literal return? That it was not meant to happen?
I was not making comment on the issue I think you are referring to. I guess you will have to do your own investigation on that issue. Let me know when you can expound more fully on it.
Last edited by TF49; 01/19/22.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
Does something get relabelled as allegory if it doesn't come true?
There is quite bit to this question.
Note that in the Book of Jonah, he laments that he was in the belly of the great fish “forever.” He was not. But, as I recall, the term ”forever” is used over 50 times with regard to events that were clearly not “for all time.” Like an impatient person might complain that they have been “waiting forever” to be picked up at the mall.
Also note that in Matthew 12….. “Jesus spoke of Jonah’s ordeal as a real historical event. He used it as a typological metaphor for His own crucifixion and resurrection: ‘As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth…’....” In this case some would hold that it is purely metaphor and others would hold that it was also a real event.
Also, Jude 1:7 describes the destruction of Sodom and uses the term “… punishment of eternal fire.” Well, Sodom is not burning today so what does this mean? The term “eternal fire” can be seen in reference to God Himself as an eternal fire. This raises another interpretation topic…. There is a difference between the action of “punishing for eternity” and the term “eternal punishment.”
Some hold to the idea that there may be a one time “punishment” but that punishment lasts for “eternity.” This is very different from the ongoing action of “punishing” for eternity.
Then there is the problem of understanding. Jesus spoke in parables for a number of reasons, one was to conceal a meaning to some and reveal a meaning to others. But that may be a subject for another time.
If the meaning is not clear and no one can agree to what it might be, it's pretty much meaningless.
I would not share that view but I can understand how you may find it “meaningless.”
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
Does something get relabelled as allegory if it doesn't come true?
There is quite bit to this question.
Note that in the Book of Jonah, he laments that he was in the belly of the great fish “forever.” He was not. But, as I recall, the term ”forever” is used over 50 times with regard to events that were clearly not “for all time.” Like an impatient person might complain that they have been “waiting forever” to be picked up at the mall.
Also note that in Matthew 12….. “Jesus spoke of Jonah’s ordeal as a real historical event. He used it as a typological metaphor for His own crucifixion and resurrection: ‘As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth…’....” In this case some would hold that it is purely metaphor and others would hold that it was also a real event.
Also, Jude 1:7 describes the destruction of Sodom and uses the term “… punishment of eternal fire.” Well, Sodom is not burning today so what does this mean? The term “eternal fire” can be seen in reference to God Himself as an eternal fire. This raises another interpretation topic…. There is a difference between the action of “punishing for eternity” and the term “eternal punishment.”
Some hold to the idea that there may be a one time “punishment” but that punishment lasts for “eternity.” This is very different from the ongoing action of “punishing” for eternity.
Then there is the problem of understanding. Jesus spoke in parables for a number of reasons, one was to conceal a meaning to some and reveal a meaning to others. But that may be a subject for another time.
If the meaning is not clear and no one can agree to what it might be, it's pretty much meaningless.
I would not share that view but I can understand how you may find it “meaningless.”
So do you believe Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of a fish, or not?
You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.
You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Does something get relabelled as allegory if it doesn't come true?
There is quite bit to this question.
Note that in the Book of Jonah, he laments that he was in the belly of the great fish “forever.” He was not. But, as I recall, the term ”forever” is used over 50 times with regard to events that were clearly not “for all time.” Like an impatient person might complain that they have been “waiting forever” to be picked up at the mall.
Also note that in Matthew 12….. “Jesus spoke of Jonah’s ordeal as a real historical event. He used it as a typological metaphor for His own crucifixion and resurrection: ‘As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth…’....” In this case some would hold that it is purely metaphor and others would hold that it was also a real event.
Also, Jude 1:7 describes the destruction of Sodom and uses the term “… punishment of eternal fire.” Well, Sodom is not burning today so what does this mean? The term “eternal fire” can be seen in reference to God Himself as an eternal fire. This raises another interpretation topic…. There is a difference between the action of “punishing for eternity” and the term “eternal punishment.”
Some hold to the idea that there may be a one time “punishment” but that punishment lasts for “eternity.” This is very different from the ongoing action of “punishing” for eternity.
Then there is the problem of understanding. Jesus spoke in parables for a number of reasons, one was to conceal a meaning to some and reveal a meaning to others. But that may be a subject for another time.
So where we have Jesus describing his return in power and glory to usher in the rule of God on Earth, he did not mean it to be a literal description or a literal return? That it was not meant to happen?
I was not making comment on the issue I think you are referring to. I guess you will have to do your own investigation on that issue. Let me know when you can expound more fully on it.
You were the one referring to metaphor and poetry. So the question is: do you believe the descriptions of the return of Jesus in power and glory, for all the tribes on earth to see, judgment, etc, is metaphor?
Does something get relabelled as allegory if it doesn't come true?
There is quite bit to this question.
Note that in the Book of Jonah, he laments that he was in the belly of the great fish “forever.” He was not. But, as I recall, the term ”forever” is used over 50 times with regard to events that were clearly not “for all time.” Like an impatient person might complain that they have been “waiting forever” to be picked up at the mall.
Also note that in Matthew 12….. “Jesus spoke of Jonah’s ordeal as a real historical event. He used it as a typological metaphor for His own crucifixion and resurrection: ‘As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth…’....” In this case some would hold that it is purely metaphor and others would hold that it was also a real event.
Also, Jude 1:7 describes the destruction of Sodom and uses the term “… punishment of eternal fire.” Well, Sodom is not burning today so what does this mean? The term “eternal fire” can be seen in reference to God Himself as an eternal fire. This raises another interpretation topic…. There is a difference between the action of “punishing for eternity” and the term “eternal punishment.”
Some hold to the idea that there may be a one time “punishment” but that punishment lasts for “eternity.” This is very different from the ongoing action of “punishing” for eternity.
Then there is the problem of understanding. Jesus spoke in parables for a number of reasons, one was to conceal a meaning to some and reveal a meaning to others. But that may be a subject for another time.
If the meaning is not clear and no one can agree to what it might be, it's pretty much meaningless.
I would not share that view but I can understand how you may find it “meaningless.”
So do you believe Jonah spent 3 days in the belly of a fish, or not?
Well, first of all, my post was referring to biblical interpretation ..... the understanding of allegory, metaphor and the use of parables.
Before we go to that, there are a couple of loose ends ....
You did not respond when I asked you to explain the significance of your comment that Marcion thought the God of the OT was not reconcilable with Jesus. You made the comment as if it was of some importance but then you declined to explain what you thought that about Marcion's supposed beliefs.... or even why they were of any significance.
You also made another claim, allegation or ? …here it is…:
“That's funny. You're view's in conflict with those Christians who believe the rapture will happen any day now....”
I asked you to explain where the “conflict” was. You did not respond. I do not know what "view" you think I might have nor do I understand why you allege that my "view" is in conflict with "... those Christians..."
Over to you.....
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
Does something get relabelled as allegory if it doesn't come true?
There is quite bit to this question.
Note that in the Book of Jonah, he laments that he was in the belly of the great fish “forever.” He was not. But, as I recall, the term ”forever” is used over 50 times with regard to events that were clearly not “for all time.” Like an impatient person might complain that they have been “waiting forever” to be picked up at the mall.
Also note that in Matthew 12….. “Jesus spoke of Jonah’s ordeal as a real historical event. He used it as a typological metaphor for His own crucifixion and resurrection: ‘As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth…’....” In this case some would hold that it is purely metaphor and others would hold that it was also a real event.
Also, Jude 1:7 describes the destruction of Sodom and uses the term “… punishment of eternal fire.” Well, Sodom is not burning today so what does this mean? The term “eternal fire” can be seen in reference to God Himself as an eternal fire. This raises another interpretation topic…. There is a difference between the action of “punishing for eternity” and the term “eternal punishment.”
Some hold to the idea that there may be a one time “punishment” but that punishment lasts for “eternity.” This is very different from the ongoing action of “punishing” for eternity.
Then there is the problem of understanding. Jesus spoke in parables for a number of reasons, one was to conceal a meaning to some and reveal a meaning to others. But that may be a subject for another time.
So where we have Jesus describing his return in power and glory to usher in the rule of God on Earth, he did not mean it to be a literal description or a literal return? That it was not meant to happen?
I was not making comment on the issue I think you are referring to. I guess you will have to do your own investigation on that issue. Let me know when you can expound more fully on it.
You were the one referring to metaphor and poetry. So the question is: do you believe the descriptions of the return of Jesus in power and glory, for all the tribes on earth to see, judgment, etc, is metaphor?
My current understanding and resulting conclusion is that …no…it is not a metaphor and also conclude that it is yet to happen in this manner.
Also, I believe that the “kingdom” of God is that ….“where” …God reigns. In Heaven but also in the hearts of men. One aspect of this and it may prove to be a “dual” aspect, is that Jesus is already ruling on earth…. Both directly and through His Body.
But…. in an attempt to clarify…. I don’t see that the Second Coming and the Judgment has yet occurred.
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
Since this is a "from what?" ambiguous question, and I have not read beyond the OP posy topic, I have to answer, IDGAF. even if I had one to spare, and I don't.
Since this is a "from what?" ambiguous question, and I have not read beyond the OP posy topic, I have to answer, IDGAF. even if I had one to spare, and I don't.
I just wasted 15 seconds of my life....
DAMN!
Well dang! You just wasted 15 seconds of MY life!
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
My current understanding and resulting conclusion is that …no…it is not a metaphor and also conclude that it is yet to happen in this manner.
Also, I believe that the “kingdom” of God is that ….“where” …God reigns. In Heaven but also in the hearts of men. One aspect of this and it may prove to be a “dual” aspect, is that Jesus is already ruling on earth…. Both directly and through His Body.
But…. in an attempt to clarify…. I don’t see that the Second Coming and the Judgment has yet occurred.
Yet the very same descriptions promise that some of those present would live see the event. That it would happen within their generation. If the described event is to be taken literally, why not the given timeline?
Since this is a "from what?" ambiguous question, and I have not read beyond the OP posy topic, I have to answer, IDGAF. even if I had one to spare, and I don't.
My current understanding and resulting conclusion is that …no…it is not a metaphor and also conclude that it is yet to happen in this manner.
Also, I believe that the “kingdom” of God is that ….“where” …God reigns. In Heaven but also in the hearts of men. One aspect of this and it may prove to be a “dual” aspect, is that Jesus is already ruling on earth…. Both directly and through His Body.
But…. in an attempt to clarify…. I don’t see that the Second Coming and the Judgment has yet occurred.
Yet the very same descriptions promise that some of those present would live see the event. That it would happen within their generation. If the described event is to be taken literally, why not the given timeline?
Some of the Matthew 24 events he described clearly happened in 70 AD and it was that generation that indeed witnessed them. The issue I have is that there seems to be a “transition” in “time perspective” if you will …. Between Matthew 24:24 or so up to Matthew 24:30. I struggle with understanding how that all fits.
So, believe it or don’t, I am faced with quite a few mysteries and unsatisfactory answers. But, I go back to that quote attributed to Martin Luther….
“The difficult parts of Scripture are the peripheral issues, while the primary parts are crystal clear.”
The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”
