Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Red dots on a handgun?

I have friends with RMR or Holosun sights on their Glocks.

Have any of you done this?

Which red dot for a Glock 19?

Also, anyone running the PSA Slide on a Glock Gen 3 build?

https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa...lo-lower-1-3-co-witness-sights-gray.html

I know it is not what you ask but I am looking at the Leupold micro delta point for a couple of reasons. 1) I think it may be more like looking at your sights and may be easier to find the dot (I don't know about this, but thinking that might be the case)
2) you can or should be able to use your current holster.
From what I can tell, you drift out your rear sight and this sides in, no cutting or machining

My Glock 19 with a Trijicon RMR06. The slide is custom milled, and has suppressor height sights for a proper cowitness.

I have Trijicon RMR's on a couple of hunting revolvers and Holosuns on several semi-autos. I like them - with aging eyes, it makes a big improvement in my shooting.

Edit: no experience with Glocks...

Carry gun or range gun?

I've done the S&W CORE and Glock MOS a couple of times. RMR on the CORE and Vortex Venom and Holosun 507C on the Glocks, both G45's.
I just sold my last G45 MOS and am sticking with irons for carry guns but if you want a range gun, the bigger the window the better. The 507C was slightly bigger than the RMR but so much easier to find the dot. I still have one on a S&W 686 but I doubt I'll try another on a carry gun. The Aimpoint ACRO P2 might tempt me back into it but I've yet to see any brand of red dot not fail sooner or later, especially when mounted on a slide. BUIS's would be mandatory.

As much as I've tried, I'm still just a tad faster with irons from draw to first shot.

Range and carry guns. Glock 19 Gen 3 and a Sig 365XL.

I know I am in the minority on this but the timer doesn’t lie and the fastest hit from the draw is what’s important to me. I do agree that multiple targets and longer shots are better with a dot. But still not where I’m comfortable with the dot.

I’ve not seen an ACRO yet but if you can find the P2 version, it has regular 50,000 hour battery life and the P1 is dead in 3 weeks. The window is slightly smaller on the P2 but it’s still worth a look.

The Delta point Pro has a huge window as does the SRO and most gamers are loving them. They just don’t seem to hold up as well as they should.

The Holosun offerings are pretty good and the 507c is the only one that stayed with the RMR in Sage Dynamics drop tests. I tried the circle only, circle and dot and just the dot which is what I prefer. Holosun is probably the cheapest way to try a quality red dot without breaking the bank.

I run an RMR on a 17.2 and it has held up well to a decent amount of use. I am not shooting in the high volume amounts like I did in my previous life, but it seems to handle everything just fine and I have no complaints.





It makes precision shooting much easier at distances further than 15 yards, that is for certain.

I'm running the Holosun 507K on my P365XL for about a year now and absolutely would not want to be without it.

To me, putting an electronic device on a handgun is next to sacrilege.

Hahaha, great vid

When you get aging eyesight you will do better with an optic than without. I am getting to that point now. I've heard alot of good talk about the Burris FF4.
Have ya'll tried em?

God Bless, Louis

I run a trijicon RMR on a Glock 19. It’s rock solid. I use it mostly for hunting but it’s there for anything.

Who’s got the best prices on RMRs?

My next 9mm will wear an optic

I have a pistol or two that are cut for red dots and has the filler plates in the cuts. I am not ready for a red dot yet but I could see it at some point if my eyes get worse. I have played with one of my guns that does have a red dot on it and I am for sure slower on the first shot because of trying to find the dot.
I think the only way I would get better is to put everything else away and only shoot the red dot. Going back and forth between sights and red dots does not help me get better with the red dot. I would have to force myself to learn it.

Are your irons cowitnessed with your red dot? Mine are, and I find that switching back and forth between red dot and non-red dot equipped pistols actually helps me pick up the dot quicker.

No shots are required to learn to pick up the dot from the draw. Just practice it until it is second nature.

Absolutely. Just 5 minutes a day drawing and dry firing will make a huge difference.

I have a dry fire routine and had co-witnessed sights on the Glock but going back and forth didn’t work. I figured I needed to go all irons or all dots. Irons won for now.

No they are not. The pistol came with standard height sights (which now that I think about it, does not make a lot of since as it was cut for an RMR) so I would have to get new sights. I will check into that, thanks for pointing out the cowitness thing I missed that completely.

I have carried 3 pistols with red dots installed: A Sig P365XL w/ a Holosun 507K, a Glock 19 MOS with a Vortex Venom, and a Sig P320 AXG with a Leupold DeltaPoint Pro.

I got rid of the G19 in favor of the Sig P320 primarily because I dislike Glock's MOS system. (It's not what you asked about, but MOS guns are known for shearing off screws (which happened to me), because their adaptor plates don't fit snugly and also warp easily.) The Vortex Venom currently sits in a drawer, because of my concerns about the unit's durability. Mine has withstood a few thousand rounds without issue, but it seems that a good number of others have not been so fortunate. I think Vortex remains a solid choice for range guns, but until their reputation for durability improves, use something else on your EDC.

I still have, and carry, the Sig P365XL with the Holosun 507 K. I love the gun and I love the optic. The Holosun 507K is pretty much the industry standard for that pistol. In fact, I'm not sure I've ever heard of somebody having a different optic installed on it.

My Sig P320 AXG is still rather new to me. It only has +/-350 rounds through it. I like the Leupold DeltaPoint Pro. The glass is very clear. The Leupold has a smidge of blue/green tint to it that you don't see on the Holosun, but I mean a miniscule amount, and it does not affect my shooting in any way. The DeltaPoint's single button that is poorly located is the worst feature about it. Others who carry their gun all day have pointed out that when the Leupold is not allowed to go into its sleep mode, battery life is significantly worse than other manufacturers' offerings. I only carry mine through the parking lot twice per day so I cannot comment on battery life.

As to your situation specifically, do it. As our esteemed colleague, Bluedreaux, said, "Red dots are not the future; they are the now." This is especially true for those of us who can't see iron sights. Red dots are amazing and very easy to use. Anyone who says that they can't find the red dot when they bring up the gun hasn't had the 60 second class on how to solve that issue. Also, if the red dot fails, just use your irons--a failing red dot is not a handicap to shooting old school. Here's a pic of me sorting out my iron-sight picture (through the windshield of my Leupold). Granted it's not great shooting, but it will save my life. Plus, I don't shoot any gun with irons much better than that anymore--especially at speed.



As with so much else in the shooting world, the biggest barrier is cost. Cost is what held me back for a time--I didn't want to buy the wrong gun and/or the wrong optic. I feared that I would end up with a $1250 gun/optic package (plus holster and extra mags) and end up with the "wrong" stuff. That's largely why I initially went with the Glock MOS--it allowed me to try different optics on a gun that would be easy to resell--which is exactly what I did. Just do your research and make the best decision you can based upon best available information. (Just like we did in the Army).

You might want to check out this guy's videos. https://www.youtube.com/user/SageDynamics/videos . He's kind of your stereotypical know-it-all gun guy, but he does do some thorough duty-testing and torture-testing of a lot of red dots.

Good luck in your decisions!

Waders is spot on. If you have iron sights aligned then the Dot is visible

The Holsun 507K has a rear sight on it that you can use

Yes. The body of the Holosun has a built-in rear sight. I've shot with mine and it is perfectly zeroed for me. I don't know how it works for others, but for me it's easily "good enough."

Yes, even when the slide is cut for the dot sight you will still need suppressor height sights.

With the proper cowitness you don't end up looking for the dot. You pick up your front (or rear) sight, start to line up like normal, and the dot just appears. Then you forget about the irons, and transition to the dot. With a little dry fire practice the transition becomes very natural, and very quick.

“With the proper cowitness you don't end up looking for the dot. You pick up your front (or rear) sight, start to line up like normal, and the dot just appears. Then you forget about the irons, and transition to the dot. With a little dry fire practice the transition becomes very natural, and very quick.“

I have to disagree with this and please don’t take it as arguing, just discussion. if you’re focusing on your irons, you might as well be using them. Iron sights, you focus on the front sight, red dots you focus on the target. That’s the whole point of a red dot, to be looking at the target and the dot is already there.

That’s where my rub comes in. I shoot a red dot and I can get pretty quick with it. Then switch to irons only and my whole focus has to shift back to the front sight. If I didn’t carry, shoot and enjoy a dozen other pistols, I’d stick with a red dot. It is the better way.

My take is that the sight picture for irons tells you more about what you need to do to get it aligned, for longer, as you finalize the alignment before pulling the trigger, whereas the dot just seems to a greater extent to either be there or not. Whether this is an optical illusion, or not, I think this is a hump people have to get over for the dot. I'm not completely over it yet.

It's easy to say, if you line up the sights, the dot will be right there, because it's true, but I don't think it's quite that simple. Or at least people (myself included) don't perceive it as such in practice.

Only red dots I have are on my hunting handguns. A 41 Mag Ruger Redhawk 7-1/2" with an UltraDot UD30 and a JPoint on a Glock G40. I just got the G40 and haven't shot it yet, but liking the JPoint and it's has great reviews. My EDC is iron sights only.

For the P365XL, I think that you are going to be limited to Holosun, Sig Romeo and, maybe RMSc if you want to use the integral cutout on the gun without any additional modifications and/or adapters. The Holosun models appear to be the best according to forum-land. The Sig version doesn't really get good reviews. I have 507K-X2s on a P365 and P365XL, and they are doing well. However, there are some nuances to consider that I wish I had known before buying.

The 507K allows switching between 3 reticle choices, which are circle + dot, circle only, and dot only. The dot is a 2 MOA dot, which is rather small. When using the dot only, in order to see it in bright daylight conditions, you have to turn it up and bloom the dot. This works during the day, but it really creates glare in low light when leaving it on the day setting. If you like the circle + dot or circle only, there is no need to bloom the dot and it works out ok. The problem is that I have learned that circle + dot and circle only are too busy for me, especially when shooting smaller targets. I like the dot only. Another problem is that the placement of the + and - buttons on the optic, which turn it on and off when pressed simultaneously, has resulted in my turning the dot off while racking the slide with my fingers on the buttons. This has caused me to use the lock-out feature to prevent that from happening. This makes it more difficult to change dot settings on the fly.

Holosun also makes a 407K, which is a 6 MOA dot only. If you want to use the dot only, you get a bigger dot without having to bloom it. It is about $100 cheaper. I also understand that there is a green dot version of this sight that brings up the cost a bit more.

You may want to settle on a preferred reticle and/or dot size before buying.

As for the rudimentary backup sights on the 507K/407K, you just have to learn the proper sight picture. For me, the shallow "backup" rear sight does not allow me to use a traditional sight picture on either gun.

YMMV.

That's how I do it.

Lesson learned personally ...

Not being able to “find” the dot fast is a function of the mechanics of your draw/presentation .

There are many credible trainers that teach “red dot specific” methods of presentation , the ironic thing is the method that works for fast red dot usage , is also fast with irons, so probably the correct way of doing it from the start .


Threat focused shooting is a huge win . That’s how our physiology works , and iron sights have always had to be learned , because sight focused is in conflict with what’s natural . Humans have adapted to it extremely well though .

On a carry gun I agree. The only thing I could see as advantageous would be a light.

So you 2 think that being able to shoot more accurate and faster is a negative

I prefer irons in the very bottom of the window, lower than a traditional 1/3 AR mount. There’s no sense in buying large, clear glass and then filling it up with iron sights you aren’t using anyway.

As someone else said, an MRDS specific presentation helps a lot to reliably find the dot.

And I also prefer a larger dot that doesn’t need to be bloomed in the daytime. 6MOA isn’t too big for handgun shooting.

The ACRO P2 is good, probably the best option for a hard use optic.

Buying Holosun is just paying for the Chinese military’s R&D.

When I was a young man, I was a solid 298-299 out of 300 shooter. Now that I'm an old man (62 soon), and my eyesight isn't what it used to be, an optic is the way to go. Optics on carry pistols are the wave of the future. Like it or not. JMHO

Ron

Primary arms has the acss vulcan reticle w big 100.moa circle. When chevron centered the outer circle not visible.
But if you are off, you can see a section of the circle and know where to move to get the center/ chevron.

Shooting from varied positions this could be quite useful.

Mrgunsngear did a YT vid on it.

What is a traditional sight picture?

Some say the future is now. Some seemed to be confused regarding the future. This was announced at Shot Show 22;

https://www.guns.com/news/2022/01/20/new-at-shot-heritage-boot-and-tactical-cowboy

I thought it sacrilege too until I tried it, then I had to do it.

I'm not convinced that that's true, but you are free to believe what you wish.

Proven fact that dots are faster and more accurate

I have a holosun 507 on my Glock 45. Still new to me but so far I’m liking it

Good catch. Let me get back to you on that. I want to shoot my guns a little more with the backup sights. I probably used the wrong term and/or conflated it with sight alignment. The backup Holosun sight is funky in that I can only see a small part of the front green sight outline when I have the tops of the front and rear sights aligned because the housing cannot accommodate a lower sight cutout on the bottom of the rear sight. It certainly is not like the factory rear iron sight. IIRC, I was raising the top of the front sight a slight bit higher than the top of the rear backup sight. Anyway, while I was playing with the guns, the minus ("-") button on my 365XL sight stopped working and I can't turn the sight off. (I replaced the battery and nothing changed in that regard.) So, now I am learning the finer points of Holosun's warranty return and repair policies. (I see that it changed 1/1/22).

In reference to Bluedreaux's comment earlier about Holosun's nation of origin, I remarked a couple of years ago that I wish that Trijicon and Aimpoint would get into the compact and mini-gun market, but they only seem geared toward military and duty sized firearms.

Thanks for the link. Does anyone have any experience with one of these on Sig P365s?

Whether or not you "believe" doesn't change what high level competition has proven to be true.

Granted, it's something that requires good fundamentals, or the "faster" part may not be true for you, especially on the draw.

As for the accuracy part, well, I'm at a loss of you can't shoot more accurately with a quality dot over irons on a handgun.

Cheyenne I have no experience with the P365s but I have mounted the RMRcc 6.5moa red on my P365XL. The RMRcc sets up a little higher than the Holosun 507K and does not have the shake awake feature. I have looked at quite a few optics at the carry optics competition and have not seen any I would trade the RMRcc for. One of the big drawbacks for the Trijicon is the price, you can buy a Holosun 507K for about half the price of the Trijicon. The Holosun has auto brightness and a backup rear sight that a lot of folks like. In all the competitions I have only seen one red dot go down and that was a Romeo one that failed due to a dead battery.

Thanks for the insight, skitish. I sure would like to see one of those.

My suggestion would be to find out where the closest gunclub that sponsors USPSA matches. Call the match director and ask if they have a pretty large Carry Optics division. Then attend a match and tell the folk you are interested, then try to fight off all the folk trying to get you to shoot a stage with their pistol. You will have plenty of time to go to the safe area and handle the weapons and look at the optics.

People's individual perception on the subject vary greatly.

Long time iron sight shooters are generally not as fast to pick up shooting a red dot as brand new shooters are who are starting with a clean slate.

Plus sometimes it depends on the individual. They may struggle with "chasing the dot" finding a proper sight picture and finding the target. This is where just a couple of hours of good instruction could shave months of frustration off the learning curve or prevent someone from giving up completely and dismissing dots. A one day class on shooting with RDOs with a competent, high level instructor might be very well worth it if one is serious about becoming competent, and not just a guy with a dot on his gun.

I had used them for years already on small and large game hunting guns before I put them on a carry gun, but I still took some time on the range to really diligently practice being competent with my RMR equipped Glock.

At close range (7-10 yards) I don't really see any advantage. But beyond that the precision quickly becomes evident as the range increases.

I have used one on my turkey shotgun for many years. Even shoot waterfowl with one. I have old eyes and open sight are difficult for me. I have a red dot on my Sig 365X and it blew me away how accurate that little gun is for me with the red dot. I can hit 4" clay pigeons at 20 yards with it! Another huge bonus for me is that I shoot the Sig with both eyes open.

There is no question in my mind that I can shoot better groups with a red dot vs irons. That being said going on 62 years old, my eyes are not what they used to be so it only makes sense.
I took a red dot class to try and help me with the transfer from irons to a red dot. I am faster up close with irons because I can get away with a less than perfect sight picture. Back at about 10 yards and further the red dot wins.
For me I still loose the dot from time to time or it takes me a hair longer to find it to start with. Either way if you are having to use your pistol for self defense, extra time is most likely not your friend.
I do plan on working with the red dot more and hope to get faster and better with one but for right now, I am going to stick with my iron sights.

As a side note, I like my S&W M&P series pistols and my EDC is a Shield Plus. To cut down on ammo cost, I am thinking about getting an M&P Compact 22LR and getting it set up for a red dot. This would be to help me with my draw and picking up the red dot without the expense of 9mm ammo. A training aid if you will, plus a 22 is just fun anyway. Thoughts, good, or bad idea?

quote=TWR]I thought it sacrilege too until I tried it, then I had to do it.

[/quote]

I just put a FF3 on my 620 with that mount. Very nice setup, with no extra metal out front. Anyone wanna buy a Weaver base for S&W revolvers?

“ To cut down on ammo cost, I am thinking about getting an M&P Compact 22LR and getting it set up for a red dot. This would be to help me with my draw and picking up the red dot without the expense of 9mm ammo. A training aid if you will, plus a 22 is just fun anyway. Thoughts, good, or bad idea?”

I think a 22 is a great idea. I have one for all 3 of my carry pieces, a 43c for a J frame, a G44 for my Glock 19 and a conversion kit for my 1911. None of mine have a red dot on them but I shot a Buckmark and a Ruger 22/45 with red dots in steel challenge matches for a few years. Thousands upon thousands of rounds fired in matches and training then I put dots on my Glock 9mm’s and fired many more thousands of rounds. I came to the same conclusion as you. Red dots are not quite as fast for me on the first shot.

Folks need to try things for themselves and see what works for them. I am getting old but I’m still capable of learning. I’m also capable of knowing what suits my needs best.

On the draw practice proper presentation in order to be seeing the sights properly as well as the dot. This doesn't require firing any ammo.

All right, enough is enough! Fine, red dots are great on plastic fantastic pistolas and even have a place on these new fangled double action jobs, but John Wayne, Roy Rogers, Gene Autry, Randolph Scott and the Lone Freakin' Ranger himself are gonna come back and kick someone's ass over this!



That's not even mentioning the fact of, ya know, a silencer, excuuuuuse me, a suppressor on a revolver....

You can order a set of mini targets from that Ben Stoeger fella and get an app called dry practice drill and set up a space just like this in your office

And it still won’t make everyone as fast as most of the red dot boys say on first hit from the draw. I’ve tried, I own a timer, I used the dry fire app, the baby targets, I worked on index and what I found is the same index works for irons and they are still faster for me.

I’m not saying overall the red dot is not a better setup cause it is. I’m saying what’s important to me is the first shot out of the holster to make an A zone hit at 5 yards under 1 second more times than not is with irons. I know others will be faster with a dot but I’m not and after having to send 2 dots back to the mothership, I don’t trust them.

I’ll also say that live fire and a timer is the only way to prove your shooting. I will also say my iron gun is a Glock 19 while my red dotted gun was a Glock 45. I always liked the 19 better. Maybe a dotted 19 will work better for me. As soon as Aimpoint gets the bugs out of the ACRO P2 and has been shipping them regularly, I’ll try again but for now, red dots are not reliable enough for me to give up irons.

That’s just wrong, so wrong!