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Run the brass through a Lee Collet die before using it.
MM That’s what I was going to recommend. If the neck walls are real thick, it has helped me in the past to go ahead and lube the necks, even though normally that wouldn’t be needed with LCD’s.
Casey
Not being married to any particular political party sure makes it a lot easier to look at the world more objectively...
Having said that, MAGA.
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Run the brass through a Lee Collet die before using it.
MM That’s what I was going to recommend. If the neck walls are real thick, it has helped me in the past to go ahead and lube the necks, even though normally that wouldn’t be needed with LCD’s. I don't yet have a Lee Collet die and hadn't planned to get one initially. But I'm rethinking that now. While I have set up the full length sizing die to only push back the shoulders 0.001", the Lee Collet die would likely be better at giving straight necks. And would likely increase the life of the brass too. Considering this is an old milsurp Mosin Nagant, the chamber is very generous. Brass grows 0.034-0.036" upon firing.  For now, I have removed the expander rod from the die and have started taking initial measurements of new, virgin brass for a before and after, like before.
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
― Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear
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akaSawDoctor,
"A lot depends on your equipment and skill level of the operator, in my opinion. A jerky operator is his own worst enemy at times, when it comes to making good concentric ammo. Among other mistakes I have made in my years of doing this, is being in a hurry and getting too quick on the press handle. ( major contributor to crooked ammo )
There is a LOT more involved than being a "jerky operator." Brass consistency is a MAJOR factor in handload accuracy, and you apparently don't understand why--or even how to determine brass consistency.
Sorry for being so blunt, but there it is.
I know you probably don’t have time to read the whole thread John as your time is spread out, but the brass is pretty decent for bulk brass judging by the the variance in neck thickness that he measured. So once brass quality has been eliminated then what’s left? Equipment and the operator right? The brass is fine and my advice is sound and if you read my posts I’m sure you will agree with the advice given. I’m certain that after the brass is fired most of the issues will be resolved. I just gave sound advice on how to get the new brass to be less of a variable for load development And I’m sorry for being blunt but there it is.
Last edited by akaSawDoctor; 02/03/22.
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I found the brass to be good ,but the primer pockets are tight.
Its all right to be white!!
Stupidity left unattended will run rampant
Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
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The only PPU brass I have tried is new 6.8spc brass and it sucks.
I shot about 30 of the cases to develop some loads. I ran the once fired cases through the normal prep and when I went to prime them, the primer pockets were loose enough to where I could push in primers with my fingers. And they were not hot loads.
I still have about 170 cases of new once and done PPU 6.8 cases. They are significantly heavier than any of the other brands that I use.
As for annealing new brass, probably a waste of time. The manufactures anneal the brass as they manufacture it. The new cases may not have the annealing coloration, but thats because most clean/polish the brass as a last step. Just a heads up for what ever it is worth. You are way over pressure on your loads. As you mentioned, “the cases are significantly heavier” which reduces cases capacity. Less case capacity means you should be reducing charge weights. I am assuming this is what is happening as I have made the same mistake once or twice in the many years I have been reloading. Actually NO, I am not over pressure. I realized that with the heavier cases, I was not going to be able to load up to the charges that are normal for other brass. I have done this more than a day and a half. I started out on the low side and worked up as normal. There were no other pressure signs. I run some of my other loads close to max, but none are overpressure. The PPU 6.8 brass just has weak primer pockets.
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I recently bought a batch of PPU 7RM brass. The flash holes were pretty rough and required deburring and uniforming.
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I had more test batches to load up so I grabbed the next 24 cases. This time, I numbered each case from 1 to 24 from the get-go. I measured the "virgin" neck run-out straight out of the bag, followed by the neck thickness variation. I then sized the cases without the expander present. After wiping off the lube I then re-measured neck run-out. I then installed the expander rod as low as I could in the die and only pushed the brass cases far enough into the die to properly expand the necks. I then re-measured neck run-out a third time. After all the cases are fully loaded I plan to measure loaded run-out. Here's what I recorded on these 24 cases.
Virgin neck run-out Neck thickness variation Sized neck run-out Post expander Diff.
0.005" 0.000" 0.004" 0.005" 0.000"
0.003" 0.001" 0.002" 0.002" -0.001"
0.004" 0.001" 0.003" 0.004" 0.000"
0.006" 0.001" 0.004" 0.005" -0.001"
0.005" 0.001" 0.004" 0.006" +0.001"
0.006" 0.001" 0.003" 0.002" -0.004"
0.004" 0.0005" 0.003" 0.004" 0.000"
0.006" 0.001" 0.001" 0.003" -0.003"
0.005" 0.0005" 0.004" 0.004" -0.001"
0.007" 0.0015" 0.003" 0.005" -0.002"
0.006" 0.001" 0.0015" 0.001" -0.005"
0.005" 0.001" 0.003" 0.005" 0.000"
0.006" 0.0015" 0.004" 0.006" 0.000"
0.005" 0.0005" 0.0035" 0.003" -0.002"
0.005" 0.001" 0.0015" 0.002" -0.003"
0.005" 0.000" 0.003" 0.005" 0.000"
0.005" 0.0005" 0.003" 0.003" -0.002"
0.005" 0.001" 0.002" 0.003" -0.002"
0.005" 0.0005" 0.0025" 0.004" -0.001"
0.005" 0.0005" 0.0045" 0.006" +0.001"
0.005" 0.001" 0.005" 0.005" 0.000"
0.005" 0.001" 0.0025" 0.0025" -0.0025"
0.005" 0.001" 0.0035" 0.005" 0.000"
0.004" 0.001" 0.004" 0.004" 0.000"
Interestingly, every case came out straighter than before when sized without the expander. However, when doing a "push through" expansion some cases gained some run-out similar to the previous batch using "pull through" expansion. Also, two cases came out with worse neck run-out than they had in their "virgin" state which didn't happen with "pull through" expansion. It should be noted though that this test is using 2x the number of cases as the previous one so it's possible it would have happened previously with a larger sample size. Some cases gained no improvement to their neck run-out while others had very large gains. I believe some of these cases had subtle neck dents that were not immediately obvious to the naked eye but showed up when measured on the Casemaster, which was then corrected by the expander rod. Also, while I'm disappointed with the neck run-out on this brass I am still impressed with the relatively consistent neck thickness. It's much better than Remington and Winchester brass that I've measured in 6.5x55, 7mm Rem Mag, and 223 Remington. It will be interesting to see the final loaded run-out.
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
― Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear
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I finished loading all 24 cases and measured the final loaded run-out.
Virgin neck run-out Neck thickness variation Sized run-out Loaded run-out
0.005" 0.000" 0.005" 0.007"
0.003" 0.001" 0.002" 0.005"
0.004" 0.001" 0.004" 0.002"
0.006" 0.001" 0.005" 0.007"
0.005" 0.001" 0.006" 0.008"
0.006" 0.001" 0.002" 0.003"
0.004" 0.0005" 0.004" 0.0045"
0.006" 0.001" 0.003" 0.008"
0.005" 0.0005" 0.004" 0.0075"
0.007" 0.0015" 0.005" 0.007"
0.006" 0.001" 0.001" 0.003"
0.005" 0.001" 0.005" 0.006"
0.006" 0.0015" 0.006" 0.010"
0.005" 0.0005" 0.003" 0.000"
0.005" 0.001" 0.002" 0.002"
0.005" 0.000" 0.005" 0.010"
0.005" 0.0005" 0.003" 0.000"
0.005" 0.001" 0.003" 0.001"
0.005" 0.0005" 0.004" 0.007"
0.005" 0.0005" 0.006" 0.007"
0.005" 0.001" 0.005" 0.0025"
0.005" 0.001" 0.0025" 0.006"
0.005" 0.001" 0.005" 0.005"
0.004" 0.001" 0.004" 0.008"
Some brass that had 0.005" neck run-out had 0.000" to 0.001" loaded run-out, while others went to 0.010". Most had run-out increase a few thousands over either virgin or fully sized run-out. I'm not sure what this tells me other than with poor neck run-out on new brass there's no telling what your final loaded run-out will be. 
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
― Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear
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Campfire 'Bwana
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What does the loaded cartridge runout look like out on the bullet ogive?
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Campfire Kahuna
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akaSawDoctor,
"A lot depends on your equipment and skill level of the operator, in my opinion. A jerky operator is his own worst enemy at times, when it comes to making good concentric ammo. Among other mistakes I have made in my years of doing this, is being in a hurry and getting too quick on the press handle. ( major contributor to crooked ammo )
Sorry for being so blunt, but there it is.
I know you probably don’t have time to read the whole thread John as your time is spread out, but the brass is pretty decent for bulk brass judging by the the variance in neck thickness that he measured. So once brass quality has been eliminated then what’s left? Equipment and the operator right? The brass is fine and my advice is sound and if you read my posts I’m sure you will agree with the advice given. I’m certain that after the brass is fired most of the issues will be resolved. I just gave sound advice on how to get the new brass to be less of a variable for load development And I’m sorry for being blunt but there it is. I'm sorry to be blunt too, but you apparently have no comprehension of what I'm talking about--which is pretty basic stuff if somebody is interested in pre-testing brass for potential accuracy. Variations in case-neck thickness has a DEFINITE affect on accuracy, no matter how you oh-so-gently and carefully run it through a typical expander-ball resizing die. There is a LOT more involved than being a "jerky operator." Brass consistency is a MAJOR factor in handload accuracy, and you apparently don't understand why--or even how to determine brass consistency. This is partly because the variations in thickness often extend down into the case body itself, which often results in "curved" cases even after FL sizing.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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I run PPU in my 222 Rem and 303 Savage. I've had pretty good luck with it, but I'm not chasing match accuracy.
I do get a case or two with a wonky primer pocket in a bag sometimes, especially with the 303 Savage brass. They'll be slightly off center, or uneven depth.
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Someone used to come to the range I was using at the time and leave behind quite a bit of smoked-up PPU 6.5x55 SE brass, probably fired in a Ljungman rifle. I accumulated quite a bit of it and that's what I used when I got a Swedish M96. It's been excellent in the Swede; routinely up to 12 reloads before the neck cracked. I have a few cases that have been reloaded 20-22 time and still good. I've never had the primer pockets get loose before the neck splits. This was with almost max. loads (by M96 standards) FL sized every time. If I had to buy 6.5x55 brass, I would buy PPU without hesitation.
Increasing my post count so people will buy stuff from me
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What does the loaded cartridge runout look like out on the bullet ogive? I don't know and I have since I corrected ammo with 0.005" or worse run-out to <=0.004" using the Tru-Angle.
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
― Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear
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akaSawDoctor,
"A lot depends on your equipment and skill level of the operator, in my opinion. A jerky operator is his own worst enemy at times, when it comes to making good concentric ammo. Among other mistakes I have made in my years of doing this, is being in a hurry and getting too quick on the press handle. ( major contributor to crooked ammo )
Sorry for being so blunt, but there it is.
I know you probably don’t have time to read the whole thread John as your time is spread out, but the brass is pretty decent for bulk brass judging by the the variance in neck thickness that he measured. So once brass quality has been eliminated then what’s left? Equipment and the operator right? The brass is fine and my advice is sound and if you read my posts I’m sure you will agree with the advice given. I’m certain that after the brass is fired most of the issues will be resolved. I just gave sound advice on how to get the new brass to be less of a variable for load development And I’m sorry for being blunt but there it is. I'm sorry to be blunt too, but you apparently have no comprehension of what I'm talking about--which is pretty basic stuff if somebody is interested in pre-testing brass for potential accuracy. Variations in case-neck thickness has a DEFINITE affect on accuracy, no matter how you oh-so-gently and carefully run it through a typical expander-ball resizing die. There is a LOT more involved than being a "jerky operator." Brass consistency is a MAJOR factor in handload accuracy, and you apparently don't understand why--or even how to determine brass consistency. This is partly because the variations in thickness often extend down into the case body itself, which often results in "curved" cases even after FL sizing. Mule Deer ’m not sure where you feel I was not comprehending you but I assure you I have deep understanding of what factors are involved with regards to concentric ammunition. I know this is not the first little dust up with you on here and I hope my profile doesn’t get deleted again as a result of me having to disappoint you. I’d if it does, oh well! Now if you actually READ what I wrote, NOWHERE will you find that I believe brass quality isn’t a significant contributor to concentric handloads. I know it is. It’s just not the only factor. You telling me I have no comprehension about something I’ve yet to talk about in any detail or imply that I said it wasn’t a factor , comes off as some sort of personal vendettas towards me. Maybe this behaviour is in retaliation of me calling you out on the questionable advice you gave the other week. Remember John…. the advice you gave about an accurate load is not required to hunt moose in Alberta? Not only did you think it was not required, it’s a memorable moment in that you went out of your way to try to embarrass and humiliate one of the posters who thought it might be a good idea to have an accurate load. Whatever your motivation for that behaviour is, I can also assure you, it looks petty. Now If you wanna continue slinging mud with a nobody, I can definitely say I don’t have time for that crap. This took the better part of an hour to type on my phone!!! The time would have been better spent learning from or helping a fellow enthusiast. I will be bowing out of this thread after my post. Now that is off my chest….. Coming from a precision maintenance back round I know beyond a doubt that competency of the operator is a major contributing factor to the end product. Making concentric ammunition is no different. It won’t matter how perfect the brass you have is, if there is a gorilla on the press handle putting it together. Poorer quality will be the result. I wouldn’t have thought this point would be up for debate but here I am …. again. As mentioned, I have proven this myself after I bought my run out gauge. To summarize…. providing that you have good raw materials ( ie brass that is consistent) it takes good equipment and a good knowledgeable operator that has sufficient time to make good concentric ammunition. Any combination of factors that is lacking, whether a poor operator, poor raw material, insufficient time or poor equipment, will result in a product with ranging deficiencies. I can’t think of a product off the top of my head that these factors don’t apply actually. I don’t think I’m saying anything you don’t know already. Btw John,if the OP wasn’t as knowledgeable, didn’t have time or hadn’t the proper equipment, he could not have taken the raw materials to achieve the desirable results that he ended up with ( concentric ammo) To say other wise is a slight against the OP .He did persevere despite some minor challenges with the brass. While the brass didn’t come perfect, I have little doubt that it is easily achievable to make good to excellent ammunition with the brass in question, providing that THE OTHER IMPORTANT FACTORS are present. My past experiences with PPU brass have been similar to the OP’s., with the way it showed up new. The advice I have have given is sound. Whether you or anyone chooses to listen ,is a different matter. My only motivation for being on this board(ask the gun writers) was to share some of my knowledge gained to help out fellow enthusiasts, gain some knowledge from fellow enthusiasts. If what I have to share ends up holding someone’s feet to the fire, so be it. Conversely, if someone holds my feet to the fire for saying something that isn’t accurate, I don’t mind as it benefits everyone on the fire.( no one here seems to have a problem with that)
Last edited by akaSawDoctor; 02/05/22.
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While my setup does have a bit of flex in the bench when resizing, I am fully capable of loading very concentric ammo in other rifle rounds. I can also state with certainty that my technique was far from anything gorilla like. 
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
― Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear
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Always worked very well for me. Lasts forever if annealed regularly and has been very good in the accuracy department..... An for the record... Ive never measured neck thickness or runout.
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Campfire Kahuna
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akaSawDoctor,
To be honest, I didn't realize my comments on "moose accuracy" and resizing imperfect brass were to the same person.
First, let me address moose accuracy. My comment was in response to you stating something like, "Use whatever bullet shoots best in your rifle," which I have heard too many times before in various forms. I stated that a load doesn't have to shoot tiny groups to kill a moose, NOT that an "inaccurate" load is adequate.
With just about any modern bolt-action rifle, unless something is really screwed up (which could include the shooter) will shoot 3-shot groups that average around 1.5", with just about any load/bullet. (Sometimes a very thin barrel will do a little worse, especially in a larger caliber, but not by much.) This even tends to be true with many non-bolts, and apparently in these times, when some hunting handloaders who've never never shot a deer beyond 250 yards are obsessed with half-inch groups, this sounds like lousy accuracy.
I wouldn't be entirely happy to hunt pronghorns with such a load, but have killed quite a few big game animals with rifle/load combinations that won't average better than 1.5" at 100 yards out to around 450 yards, and sometimes group closer to 2", including quite a few much smaller than moose. Some of the time this was due to using factory ammo, which I sometimes have to field-test.
These animals have included a big Wyoming mule deer at 360 yards, and not just one but two bull caribou taken at 400 and 430 on the same hunt. None of these had a chest measuring more than 22" from brisket to back, including hair, yet the bullets all landed close enough to the middle of the chest to put a hole through both lungs. And all three were factory .30-06 loads that chronographed around the listed 2700 fps, so did not shoot particularly flat."
If you can provide instances that prove somebody wounded a moose due to such "lousy" (your word, not mine) accuracy because the bullet strayed too far off course at 400 yards, I would be very interested.
Similarly, you stated that resizing brass gentler can result in accurate handloads, even with a typical expander-ball die and brass with lop-sized case necks. I have experimented more than most handloaders with getting expander-ball-dies to make accurate ammo, as in consistently less than 1" at 100 yards using a single stroke of the handle. Sometimes it can be done after some work on the dies, but in my experience not consistently with lop-sided brass, even when the press handle is worked gently. This is because too many rounds still end up with too much bullet run-out.
The best solution for such brass I've found (as have some others) is a Lee collet die, because it sizes the INSIDE of necks more concentrically with the case body. Sometimes a Lee factory crimp die can also help, by resulting more even bullet-pull with lop-sided brass. Often a better seating die, which keeps the bullet aligned as it enters the neck, also can help.
But the major technique I've found for making consistently accurate ammunition with typical expander-ball dies is to use brass of consistent thickness, throughout the body and neck. This is partly because I've tried sizing lop-sided brass slowly and gently, and it never consistently helped.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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if a person wants a rifle for accuracy buy a rifle with a cartridge that has known good accuracy and use Lapua brass , trying to get accuracy out of a old cheap rifle just doesn`t always work with poor brass either. Moose accuracy is a good way to say it , my old friend always said your not shooting at a mouse its a deer that`s good enough.
LIFE NRA , we vote Red up here, Norseman
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Mule Deer,
The rifle in question was not known to be a bolt action rifle when you posted.
Nice write btw. I agree with you.
Never did I mention lopsided necks. ( inconsistent neck thickness ). This is something that you are continually implying that I said. Please show me where and I will edit my post.
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Campfire Kahuna
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The OP's question was about the quality of PPU brass. You stated the run-out you got from some, which didn't sound too good to me, so I asked whether you used an expander-ball die to size it.
You said you did, which to me didn't prove anything one way or another about brass quality, as expander balls can pull the neck out of alignment with the case body even with very consistent brass. My experience is that with typical expander-ball dies from just about any company (Hornady, Lee, Lyman, RCBS, Redding etc.) the chances are around 50/50 that an expander ball die will pull some necks out of alignment--even with GOOD brass. This is as the die comes from the box, more than I prefer for good results.
There are ways to tweak or use OTB expander-ball dies to reduce this considerably, but not with lop-sided brass.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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