Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

BTW.
I've decided that The Spruce King will get abbreviated when I get him back up and working for a living again. Barrel will be 16.5" long with a Harrell's muzzle brake added to the end of it.
Finished total length will not exceed 18"
And I'm going to try to find a nice slender stock for it. Maybe a McMillan ?? Possibly a Boyd's laminated stock that I slim down.

Refresh my memory, was the Spruce King built on a a stainless Ruger Mark II action ?

Yes.
I has a canoe paddle stock on it. But I kinds messed it up in my youth🤔. It's been worked hard . But it's like a Timex. Takes a Licking and keeps on Ticking.
I've had such good success with the 300 and 350 grain X and TSX. And they have a moderate recoil. Easily flat enough trajectory for 300 yard caribou. And ample thump an Dump for grizzly or brown bear at 20 feet.
I should still get 2600 fps from a 16.5" barrel. With the 300 grainers.
Who knows what the left is gonna do. Judging from the lack of components at the local toy store. We might need to focus down on the important parts of having a few great rifles that fill a multi purpose role. A pseudo scout bear thumper that can also blitz a coyote at 300 yards or put ruminates in the freezer or canning jars would be an A #1 rifle to keep handy.
Few things as handy as a short little carbine.

Carbines are especially favored as the dunny gun for outhouse patrol,
whether in Kentucky or Alaska.
The Spruce King is indeed capable of all-purpose work, as Sir Spruce explains.

More loads to be tested when the freezing weather warms up again.
Will use some W-W Super brass and some Norma brass at next outing.
W-W Super is identical to Hornady for load work-up purposes, but the NORMA is quite different.
Will eventually be trying to "shoot the diff" with 400-grainer and 403-grainer at 600 yards.

Meanwhile at McCourry Institute of Ballistics in South Carolina:

Very impressive !!
Thank you Sir Ron !
That scope on there is going down the road also !
That is the most troublesome scope I've ever owned in my life . 2.5 power Burris Fullfield. What a horrible thing ! It's been back to the factory 4 times. I call and talk to people at Burris. I did when I first got that scope. They assured me that I couldn't shoot a rifle powerful enough to break their scope.
It is currently broken AGAIN !

CTF,

Just be careful with the Boyd's laminate stock mate.
A guy on one of the forums down here in Oz had one fitted to his .458 and a few of us were asking him how it went because we were thinking of fitting one to our .458's..
He told us that not too long after fitting, the recoil caused it to split down the centre. He warned us against fitting one to a .458 and he then fitted a McMillan to his rifle.

Just wanted to share his experience.

Russ

LOL, You're most welcome Sir Ron, glad you both enjoyed the grub, i'll check with wife on recipes, she may have to send your Wife a live sample of her science project she feeds each week, that's the thing that's been alive in Wifes family for more than 90 years now, glad you guys are coming along with the 400gr Hammers, i think my invite may have landed then got eighty sixed in the email trash bin or junk pile.

Had a great weekend enjoying the Boma i built for Wife last week, gonna rest up a few days now, sheet i'm getting old, spreading 15 ton of sand over a 30x35 foot oval with a shovel sucks, but well worth the effort!

CTF,
Another stock option that you might consider is the Bell & Carlson for the Rugers. This has the full length bedding block and is for the “magnum” barrel contour, such as the 338 Winchester. I have had no issue with them fitting 375 & 416 Ruger. Your 458 barrel looks a bit bigger.
I compared weight of a B&C Ruger, to a Ruger McMillian McSwirly with mag-fill in the action area. The B&C was surprisingly a few tenths of an ounce lighter.

Thank you. I plan on bedding and cross bolting the daylights out of it.
I Really like the Boyd's Classic ( JRS) shape as it has the most comfortable grip. A good drop at the comb and the foreend can be slimmed without taking too much from the sides of the action area.
My goal is a nice lively handling feel that is comfortable for carrying in my hand or with a Ching style sling.
My primary dislike of the Ruger Zytel stock is the cramped grip.

Sir Jerry,
I made a "Rooster Note" on how to please "Mama Chicken": Build her a 30x35 foot boma with concrete patio.
Quite the Valentine there.

Sir Spruce,
I have made the Boyd's and Richards Micro-Fit laminates work on harder kickers than the MIGHTY .458 WINCHESTER MAGNUM.
Not much difference in those two laminates, I reckon.
They are still just wood between the epoxy gluing.
They can crack along the wood laminations.

One was reinforced every-which-way after a crack developed at the tang on a .460 Wby.
It lived on after a re-barreling to 470 Mbogo.

The other was used on a .500 Mbogo, reinforced at the start, no cracks yet.
They can gain a pound with all the embedded steel allthread and epoxy in 3-D inside the stock.
Can be slim but heavy.

I much prefer the B&C Medalist type stock as Sir Larry suggests.
They weigh only 2.0 to 2.5 pounds for M70/M77 to CZ 550 Magnum,
With the bedding block, no barrel lug is needed on a .458 WinMag, or any other man-portable piece.

I was able to do the Valentine's Day duty and fit in a trip to the range yesterday.
It was a perfect "blue bird day," as a duck hunter would say.
Calm and sunny and temps were 39 to 40 degrees F
from start to end of shooting, finished about 90 minutes before sunset..

I have found a load to try at "shooting the diff" between 400-grainer and 403-grainer at 600 yards.
This is with W-W brass having 94.4 grains gross H2O last time I checked:



80.0 grains of loose pour was about 100% LR at 3.480" COL with the Shock Hammer "404/.458."
81.0 grains with drop tube might be more efficient at 3.480" COL with the Shock Hammer in the W-W brass.

By comparison, the Hornady brass was 94.3 grains gross H2O and should be interchangeable for load data.

My lot of Norma brass is bigger at 98.8 grains H2O gross when checked same way as the W-W and Hornady methods.

To simplify and round to nearest grain of H20, when all brass is 2.500" long,
95 grains for W-W and Hornady
99 grains for Norma, my lot.
The Norma manual claims 95 grains for their brass but might be for new, unfired, and shorter than 2.500"
and/or might be a variation in lots over the years.
I go by once-fired, not sized, and full 2.500" for my 95-grain simplification with the W-W and Hornady.
BTW, that is the default case capacity assigned to the .458 WM by my QuickLOAD software, an old version.
Discussion of R-P and Federal brass will be saved for later attempts at tedium
along with the making of .458 WinMag brass from any belted case long enough,
especially the .458 Lott. Heh heh.



Norma brass, same rifle, 39*F at start, 40*F at finish, all with "404"/.458, F-215, AA-2230

3.380" COL
78.0 gr >>> 2395 fps MV
80.0 gr >>> 2489 fps MV

3.480" COL
80.0 gr >>> 2425 fps MV
82.0 gr >>> 2496 fps MV
84.0 gr >>> 2545 fps MV

Compare to

Hornady Brass
3.480" COL
80.0 gr >>> 2479 fps MV at 48*F

W-W Brass
3.480" COL
80.0 gr >>> 2475 fps MV at 39*F
81.0 gr >>> 2517 fps MV at 39*F, charged with drop tube

Excellent research & report, Sir Ron.

My COAL looks like the SAAMI Max of 3.340” for the unaltered M70 458 Winchester.

So my velocity hopes out of the 22” barrel, shall be lower than your lowest achievement. I will be satisfied with 2300 fps. Anything over 2300 more happy.

At 2300, based on a BC of .410, I should still be slightly about 1900 fps at 200 yds with minimal trajectory concern.

Thank you Sir Ron . I got too sleepy to intelligently reply to Sir Larry last night.
I will see if I can lay hands on one.
The Spruce King has a big underbarrel recoil lug silver soldered well forward . Iirc around 12" in front of the receiver ring . But I'm sure some judicious use of a dremil tool can open a hole to fit it into.

Is the lowest impact velocity for expansion yet known/claimed for the new "404"gr/.458 ?

It appears from multiple examples cited by individuals (including myself) that the "book" claimed impact velocity for expansion doesn't always "fit" personal experience, both ways (above or below). Of course, the medium used (water, ballistic gel, animal flesh and bone, etc) is the greatest influence on real results.

Perhaps Sir Ron could chime in here for his view/experience, and/or any others.

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Idmay375,
Your requirements are easy to meet, as I too have a Model 70 with 22" barrel.
Using the Barnes 400gn X bullet (Still have a batch loaded up) and a load of 74gn of H 4198, I chronographed 2434fps over my Oehler 35P. OAL is 3.345"
My back up load used 76gn of H322 for 2380fps so exceeding 2300fps in the 22" barrel length is a done deal.

Just to demonstrate how versatile the .458 is with heavier loads, I found a couple of decent loads for the Barnes 450gn TSX bullets using 72gn of H 322 for 2381fps ( OAL was 3.338") and 68gn of H 4198 which achieved 2360fps. (OAL 3.434")
I never correct velocities to Muzzle Velocity and the 35P is set at 15 feet from the muzzle to eliminate muzzle blast on the screens.
John

I am somewhat optimistic that 2400 is doable.
The H4198 & H322 are rare birds around here.
IMR 4198 & H335 make somewhat frequent visits to the store shelves.

Once I get to the loading point, I have the Accurate 2230 & 2460 to try first. I keep an eye open for the H4198 & H322. But have not seen it in a very long time.

The 2400’ish FPS would be my idea of nearly perfect for my uses.

I have some of the 450 grain TSX. Until the new Hammer bullet came about it was going to be my default. As I pretty much had given up on finding a 400 grain type with a BC of .400.
I have high hopes of this Hammer bullet as my do-all bullet.

I am not sure Bob. This bullet may or may not vary from their regular line of Shock Hammer bullets.
But this is from their website.

All of the Hammer Bullets that are designed for hunting are impact tested down to 1800 fps impact velocity for proper deformation. We have not been able to impact a Hammer Bullet at too high of an impact velocity. They will retain the same weight at low and high velocity impacts.

quote = ldmay375

"Excellent research & report, Sir Ron."

Response: Buy a donkey for the flowers Sir Larry.

"My COAL looks like the SAAMI Max of 3.340” for the unaltered M70 458 Winchester."

R: Are you sure?
I just this minute slipped a 3.380" COL into the box of my unaltered M70 .458 Winchester Magnum Super Grade.
My box is a little over 3.4" inside length. Most I have measured are about 3.42".
Additionally I can single-load the 3.480" COL dummy and eject it after chambering.

"So my velocity hopes out of the 22” barrel, shall be lower than your lowest achievement. I will be satisfied with 2300 fps. Anything over 2300 more happy."

R: Maybe.
But you do get more bang per grain of powder in a shorter COL. Cartridge Overall Length is your friend, short or long.
The latest test with differing COL and all else same:
3.380" COL gave 2489 fps MV
3.480" COL gave 2425 fps MV
Shortening COL by 0.100" gave 64 fps more velocity.
That alone could compensate for about 3" of barrel shortening in the 20" to 24" length range.
Shortening COL to 3.280" will get velocity even higher for same powder charge and barrel length.
Just work up for velocity/pressure for your rifle with COL you prefer, as you please, looking for accuracy nodes.

Velocity for barrel length varies greatly among rifles.
Tim Sundles has an 18" barrel and a 22" barrel that both produce about 2250 fps with his 400-gr TSX load for .458 WinMag,
22" velocity was 2247 fps.
18" velocity was 2250 fps, quoting his web site.
His COL is 3.310" for the commercial load.
Same load in my 24" Ruger No. 1 gave 2325 fps at 5 yards, 2338 fps MV for G1 BC = 0.324
so you never know until you try.

"At 2300, based on a BC of .410, I should still be slightly about 1900 fps at 200 yds with minimal trajectory concern."

R: Count those chickens after they are hatched.
I am hoping to shed some light on the G1 BC estimate of 0.419 with some shooting at 100, 200, 300 and 600 yards.

quote = ColdTriggerFinger

"The Spruce King has a big underbarrel recoil lug silver soldered well forward .
Iirc around 12" in front of the receiver ring . But I'm sure some judicious use of a dremil tool can open a hole to fit it into."

My comments to Sir Spruce:
I used a B&C CZ 550 Mag stock on my second 500 Mbogo and it is about a pound lighter than the first one in reinforced laminate stock.
I did have to use a Dremel Tool to cut a recess in the forearm for my custom barrel lug on that 500 Mbogo.
The aluminum endoskeleton of the B&C stock had to be cut into there.
It runs from near forearm tip to all the way back through grip.
Good stocks from B&C.
I prefer them over any other, especially for the value for dollars and strength for weight.