Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

Attention getting meme to flag the start of page 90, no offense meant to Sir Bob who suffers under Fidel Trudeau.
He might take some comfort in realizing he is not suffering O'Biden and Obamala as directly as his southern neighbors.





Sir Bob:

I called Steve Davis at Hammer Bullets yesterday.
They have not tested that particular yet, as they have just now produced it on my request,
as a simple scale-up of their 270-gr/.375-cal "Dangerous Game" Shock Hammer.
That bullet has reportedly performed very well in all regards,
artificial media and field reports on game animal bagging. Bagged well.

Steve says the "404"/.458 SH might start opening up in the 1500 to 1600 fps range.
He expects all the petals to blow off by 1800 fps, leaving a flat nose penetrator and secondary-wounding petals.
No top end limit on speed, whether 1800 fps or 2600 fps from the mighty .458 WinMag.
We shall see.

I would expect that sort of thing with a brass hollow point, but not the usual for a copper monometal.

Hammer Bullets are made from a special alloy, 99.8% copper and something else: Sulfur !!!
Fire and brimstone !!!
Steve Davis said they had the copper from GSC and CEB spectrographically analyzed.
They say they tried those alloys and they did not work like they wanted.
Somehow they hit upon a different alloy and it worked wonders.
The copper rod suppliers thought they were crazy in wanting that alloy for bullet making.

I guess it machines beautifully, like "free-machining 360" brass, and reportedly makes the petals explode off similar to brass,
only better than brass since the metal is denser than brass.
This is all hear say, but I say it hears good.

To shoot water jugs and buckets at velocities from ~1500fps to ~2500 fps is my plan.
The MIB tests in wetpack by Sir Michael are coming, Lord willing and the creeks don't rise.
He is pretty good at recovering and photographing bullets for his immense data base.

Sir Woods,
That is some excellent information, duly recorded for posterity.
I do love the H322 and H4198, which never disappointed me in everything I have tried them in.
Buy a donkey for that.

My SWAG on barrel length versus velocity in a .458 WinMag, assuming barrel length is the only variable:

From 20" to 28 " the average is about 15 fps per inch.
10 fps per inch on either side of 28" length.
20 fps per inch on either side of 20" length.
Below 20" length: Rapidly increasing loss per inch of barrel shortening.
Beyond 30" barrel length: Velocity is lost for each inch of barrel lengthening.

But here is the caveat: Barrels differ in internal dimensions and finish.

A particular 400-gr load in my 25" Shilen stainless barrel (0.4585" groove diameter) gave 2527 fps.
Same load in my 23" McGowen stainless barrel (0.4580" groove diameter) gave 2511 fps,
same day, same temperature, same gunsmith, same reamer, standard SAAMI .458 WinMag chamber.

Gotta hatch those chickens before counting them.

I am considering my .458 BMW (.458 B&M-Win-Throated) for testing of the 404-g/.458 SH bullet.
Barrel is by PacNor, 1:10" twist , stainless, 8-groove, 0.4580" groove diameter.
Barrel length is 19.75 inches.
When loaded to COL of 3.220" it has same case capacity net as the .458 WM+ with 3.480" COL.
Maybe try 60% to 105% LR of H4895 and see how low and how high it will go.
Knocking some velocity off with the shorter barrel will make it go lower more easily.

Comparing same loads to my 23"-barreled .458 WM+ at 3.480" COL will be interesting.
Different barrel makers and different twists and groove numbers,
but both are 0.4580" groove diameter.



Load data for .458 BMW ought to work "grain-for-grain" in the .458 WM+.
SWAG 65 fps faster MV with the 23" barrel compared to 19.75" barrel.
Better hatch those eggs before counting the chickens.

Saint Sir Metford sweated not bullet weight variation as much as he did powder charge variation.

He said there was a compensating factor with bullet weight variation.

My SWAG on his thought is that if two bullets are externally of same shape and linear dimensions
but weights are different due to a uniform alloy difference in the two cast bullets
with no voids or localized density variations within each bullet, no eccentricities or weeble-wobbles:

The slightly heavier bullet will have a proportionally higher BC and lower MV.
Those two factors are compensating factors.
The points of impact will be little different for the two bullets, out to 1000 yards muzzleloader target.

Sir Ron,
You have a 10 twist 458 and a 14 twist 458 that you can launch bullets at the same muzzle velocity yet very different RPM. Should be interesting with the Hammers! Lot's of folks are interested in High RPM results in Game. I do think the Hammer bullets, designed to blow off Petals could be interesting. Certainly was in a 35 Whelen 10 twist on Deer as we have seen posted. No 35 Whelen 14 twist on Deer to compare.
Tally HO!!

Rechecked / re-measured seated Hammer. It looks like 3.352” just fits in the magazine box of this Super Express. Possibly another couple of .001’s is available. But at 3.352” it very close to touching at the nose with the base of brass against the rear of the box.
At 3.354 the nose rubs the front of the box.
I think, I will go with the 3.340” to 3.345”. Hopefully it will fit any other 458 Winchester magazine box that I might deal with. Which I still have to check the Interarms Whitworth.

Sir Dennis,
Yes, it will be interesting. Rather than shoot a water trap at 200-yard range with standard (14") twist and high MV,
one could get close to same velocity and RPM at impact using faster (10") twist and slower MV at 25-yard water trap.
Less likely to miss the jug and waste an expensive bullet !
Then to see if low RPM affects the shearing of petals at low impact velocity at 25-yard range
I have that covered with a 20" twist rifle that can take the full range of powder charges used in the .458 BMW.
Yes, the old .45-100-2.6" Sharps Winchester Throated, re-invented in 2019,
identical to the .45-70 Elko Magnum from C.I.P.in 1992.

10" twist:



14" twist:



20" twist:

Here is a story I wrote on another forum some time ago so I thought I'd post it here.
It actually needs updating a bit as I wrote it a while ago now, but everything I wrote then I stand by now and I had fun writing it.
I Hope it doesn't bore you all!



Hey guys,

I'm at home sick (not Covid!) and I'm bored so I thought I'd share my .458 journey with you all.
I have personally owned 5 .458's over the years but my latest one is a keeper. Every time I've sold one I have ended up regretting it so I'm not selling this one!

My first .458 I bought after reading an article in Australian Shooters Journal magazine by John Woods. (AussieGunWriter)
It was a CZ550 Safari Magnum with the hogsback stock. I fitted it with a Tasco 1-4x scope (hey, I didn't know any better at the time... but the scope survived!) and it was a nice rifle.
It didn't feed that well but it was my introduction to big-bores.
I fed this rifle a mixture of Winchester 510gn Super X ammo and some reloads consisting of the 300gn Sierra on top of a min load of AR2207 for a chronographed 2650fps.
My intention was to originally ream this .458 to the .458LOTT - and I even got a quote for this job off a gunsmith, but when I found I was easily getting the velocity I was after out of the standard .458, I kept it as is, thus starting my love affair with the .458 Winchester.
I owned this rifle for a while but I found that my reloads and factory ammo didn't feed through the mag that well, and instead of getting it fixed I eventually ended up selling the rifle... which I regretted.




The second .458 was also a CZ550 but with the American style stock.
I spent a bit of coin on this rifle, sending it to the respected gunsmith/ gun maker Kudu Services in Melbourne for some custom touches.
I had the fore-end shortened and a buffalo horn tip fitted for that safari look. Also has a couple of cross-bolts fitted and the action smoothed out as it wouldn't feed at all when first purchased. The barrel was shortened to 21" and a barrel-band sling swivel was added.
It was topped with a Pentax 2.5 scope.
This was a really nice looking rifle and was my introduction to hand loading long to suit the magnum sized magazine of the CZ.
A very easy load of AR 2206H achieved a spot on 2150fps with the 500gn Woodleigh PP through the 21" barrel.
I ended up selling this rifle to a well known gun writer in Australia to fund my next .458 purchase...
Looking at the photo's of this rifle I probably shouldn't have sold it...




My next .458 I purchased was a Winchester M70.
This was a great rifle but before I owned it, it was apparently a bit of a lemon.
I remember reading on forums about this actual rifle and how it had to be rectified to make it work satisfactory.
So when I purchased it I felt like I knew it already.
I fitted the same Pentax 2.5 scope to it and I fed this rifle the same loads I fed through the CZ - except they were too long. So what I did was seat the projectiles of these reloads deeper so that they would fit in the Winchester mag.
These rounds were very compressed and chronographed over 2200fps and kicked accordingly.
I ended up regretfully selling this rifle as I needed the funds and it just wasn't being used. I can happily say though that I have kept track of it and it's still going strong and killing the hell out of big stuff up in Queensland.
I regret selling that rifle...




After selling the Winchester there was a void in my life because I no longer owned a rifle that could kill an elephant... so I rectified that by buying a Zastava M70 with the Walnut stock.
I bought this rifle from a gunshop in Queensland (who were very rude) and was informed that this rifle was on its second stock - having split the first one before a box of shells had been put through it.
I was then again rudely informed that if the second stock split it was my problem. I bought it anyway as the price was right.
I paid $700 for this rifle and straight away took it to Bob at Kudu Services again to get the stock strengthened, cross-bolted and to get a buffalo horn tip fitted.
Bob took one look at the stock and in his usual blunt, to the point style said it was a waste of his time and my money doing that work as the stock was rubbish!
He then went out the back and brought out a Hogue pillar bedded synthetic stock and said I was better off fitting that. I left the rifle with him to fit as the safety needed modifications.
This rifle also taught me a valuable lesson to having to buy quality scopes for big-bore rifles - as it chewed through 3 before I finally bought a Leupold 2-7x33 which survived.
I fed this rifle a reload consisting of the Woodleigh 480gn RNSP over 74gn of 2206H which delivered a spot-on 2150fps and cloverleafed 3 shots at 50m.
This rifle was built on a budget and I have to say that it fed and ejected flawlessly from the start - no 'smithing was needed.




It was about this time that deer hunting became my passion and as good as the .458 was, it wasn't the ideal deer rifle.
So I ended up trading the Zastava for a Weatherby Vanguard in .300Wby to a young guy who worked at a gunshop I frequent.
Talking to the guys who work there, apparently he took it out once - with my reloads, fired some and promptly said 'stuff that' then sold it!
Who would've thought that an elephant gun kicked???
But inevitably that void of not owning a .458 soon hit me, so I began the search for another one.
My poor wife agreed with the one proviso this was to be my last .458...
I was chatting to a friend who put me onto some leads, but when googling I found that Owen's guns in Queensland had some brand new. And for only $940.
I quickly purchased one and I now owned my 5th and last .458.
The first thing I needed to do was replace the stock as experience told me that this would be necessary. I put out the feelers on Australia's largest shooting/ hunting forum that I was after synthetic stock to suit a FN Mauser and straight away found another Hogue stock - but this one had the full aluminium bedding block, not just the pillars.
After modifying the safety myself (a simple 5min job) the Hogue was fitted and it was awesome. Nice and stiff and free floated.
After my learnt lesson with scopes last time, I straight away purchased a Leupold 1.5-4 in Leupold mounts/ rings.
I was told by a big-bore expert that these mounts weren't up to scratch so they were replaced with Warne rings and mounts.
Even though the 480gn Woodleighs performed perfectly I wanted to try something different with this rifle, so I purchased some 550gn Woodleigh RNSP.
I contacted Geoff McDonald of Woodleigh and he said to try 73gn of BM2 (BENCHMARK) for around 2100fps.
This I did and got a chronographed 2080fps in my rifle... pretty close! I got a total spread of 4 fps!
Recoil was pretty noticeable (sucked) with this load but once again (and this is a familiar story) it did put bullets in the same hole at 50m.
To be absolutely honest this load, in this rifle, calculated to 80ft/lbs and exceeded my recoil tolerance shooting off the bench. Off hand its unpleasant, but manageable... just.
I haven't tried this load on game yet, but I think it's obvious that it'll be pretty effective putting out 5200ft/lbs of energy.
I actually think that this latest Zastava might be my favourite. It just feels perfect in my hands and I love everything about it.
This one's a keeper.




When I purchased my latest Zastava and went to purchase some factory ammo I found out that Winchester had stopped making it's cheap Super X stuff with the 510gn Powerpoint. Brass - when you could find it was expensive and this left me with a dilemma... what to feed it!
I called around and luckily came across someone who had an unopened case of some .458 factory ammo... from the 80's! It was the white and orange box stuff and I wondered if it would still be ok?
Well, not only was it ok it also was the fastest factory ammo I'd personally ever fired through a .458.
Most factory stuff - even fired through a 25' barrel of a CZ, only reached around 1970fps, where this stuff was doing 2015fps. This was only 25fps less than the box said. It was also super consistent and super accurate (like all .458's are) once again putting 3 bullets in one hole at 50m.
To be truthful I only bought this ammo to shoot off as quickly as possible so I could use the empties, but this ammo was so good, I used it for all my deer hunting for quite a while. I've only now just started using the 550's - but this stuff has proved to be great.




So there's my .458 story.
I love the .458 and it is without a doubt my favourite round.
All the horror stories you have heard or read are ancient history and the .458 is a simple round to load. It's also super accurate.

Hope I didn't bore you and thanks for reading!

Russ


550gn Woodleigh handload at just under 2100fps... When you absolutely, positively need to put something on it's bum!


2 factory Super X rounds that completely penetrated a big Gum tree at 50m... coz everyone knows the .458 doesn't penetrate...


480gn Woodleigh vs Fallow at 150m


Sambar taken with the .458 loaded with factory stuff

[img]https://i.imgur.com/xiXKP9h.jpg[/img]
My first Red taken with the .458 in miserable conditions... also with factory ammo

[img]https://i.imgur.com/oK6D4LZ.jpg[/img]
Needs no explanation...

LOL, a new Boma for Mama will get you lots of back rubs and head scratchins Sir Ron, little Wife loves hers, going to be 60-65 for highs across the weekend, she'll have her toebones planted in the sand with good book, wine and fire again LOL.

Great work with the 400gr Hammers in the mighty 458 WM+, cant wait to see/read about the first animals smacked with that combo, also anxious to hear about M's penetration tests, i've been working with my Turnbull '86 in 50-110 WCF, have a 530gr greaser with 0.325" flat meplat cast with 16/1 alloy running 1361 fps over 110gr Swiss FG, should make a great hunting load, and one i can use out to 3-400 yards with the Smith ladder barrel sight.

Good stuff Sir Russ, glad you kicked the kung flu's ass and are out smoking animals!

Russ thanks for posting that.

Ordered some 404 grain Riflecrank Shock Hammers.

Excellent on the .458 Hammer order.
If these babies perform as well as they look, my searching / wishing for a 400 grain.458 bullet is over.

For my purpose in North America, this bullet should literally Hammer any moose or bear.

I anxiously await further test results by Sir Ron & the MIB results.

This Hammer bullet, the North Fork 350 grain Cup Point expanding solid, and the Lehigh 380 grain Copper WFN Flat Point solid, have regenerated my interest in the .458 caliber rifles.
I am still keeping an eye out for 325 grain NF Cup Points to try in the 45-70 lever guns. But, the 350 grain version will serve well for the 45-70 & 458’s.

Russ, we need to get some of these Hammer 400/404 grain bullets in your hands. You whack a lot of animals, and trace the bullet performance, an excellent source for bullet performance from big to small animals.

Someone, somewhere, in Australia ordered some of these to test out on Buffalo. That should be about the ultimate test, probably the same for those big scrub bulls.

Russ,
Thanks for the article. This is the best reason to become a writer, to have the chance to help someone with a short cut, or help influence a decision to take that step into new cartridge territory.
Because you took that step, we are all beneficiaries of your journey.

John

BBM that was A great post / story. I enjoyed it thank you

Yes indeed, great work in posting that by Sir Russ.
No Lottite propaganda or fake news there !
Wonderful truth.
I had gotten wind of it from Sir Woods and had read it at the other forum.
I am sure glad Sir Russ did not make me beg him to post it here.

Great to hear Sir John has jumped on the wagon with Sir Larry in ordering some of the 404-g/.458 Shock Hammers.
We won't be disappointed.

A little bit of "maths" tells me that a 1785 fps MV from a 1:10" twist when impacting a water trap at 25 yards
will strike with the same spin rate and velocity as a bullet from a 1:14" twist at 2500 fps MV that impacts at 405 yards.
Spin rate is about 2143 revolutions per second (RPS) = 128,580 RPM.
Impact velocity is about 1743 fps.
That would be a great test for a 400-yard killer.

I know it's apples and oranges. But with the Spruce King. 80 grains of 2230 gave me over 2400 fps with 400 gr Barnes X bullets and Barnes Originals. Both .032k and .049k jacketed.
But the 32k gave higher pressures. But not horrible.
I did drop my load to 78 grains of 2230. Which was still around 2380 fps . Measured with at least 2 different Shooters Chrony F1s at 18 to 20 feet.
Now I know that barrel length is important. But SK's Shilen barrel is Fast
COAL was 3.35 to 3.34 "

I dropped my load to78 gr before ( The Illumination) of the 458 Winchester happened.
Tho I knew my rifle, I was still sadly influenced by the naysayers of The Great 458 Winchester Magnum.
Likewise with the 300 grain X and TSX I easily got 2700 fps with IMR 4198.

https://ibb.co/Q9mrT5s
Finally took a few minutes to take a pic I've needed to for some time.