Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Express Rifles and Big Bores Only The great 458 Winchester. Everyone should own one at least once

That would be nice. If anything to have as a less expensive bullet to practice with.

Sir Jerry,
I have trailed Doc M's ".458 Terminals" thread and found no 450-gr/.458 TSX testing.
Maybe someday he will get big-bored enough to do it.
I would be happy to supply him with both 450-gr and 500-gr TSX bullets and see if he would do them at the velocities that the .458 WM+ is capable of.
He has a .458 B&M EX ("Express/Extra") that would be able to equal the mighty .458 WM+ most likely,
without having to re-throat it, heh heh.
I will offer to supply the bullets to him and suggest ~2400 fps for the 450-grainer and ~2300 fps for the 500-grainer,
close enough to your loads:



The 400-gr Shock Hammer might be for us with less chest hair than the 450-gr TSX shooters of the .458 WM+.
Both bullets will gitterdunn.
I'll post the above picture at his forum, if allowed, to try egging him on.

Yes wouldn't that be nice.
I am going to do a preliminary ladder of H4895, using up the old Speer 400-gr FNSP and Barnes Original SSSP 400-grainers.
Thus, allowing to zero in on the lower velocity loads, then repeat with Shock Hammers.
Save pennies.
The .458 BMW (10" twist) at low MV and close range water trap
will get a chance to imitate the .458 WM+ (14" twist) at high MV and long range.

Sir Tony has found a relic.





Here's hoping he will dissect the loads and report on his findings.
Then send the empties to me.
That stuff looks old enough to have been from a time when the Democrat Party voters
infiltrated the ammo factory to sabotage the loads, like they try to do to the USA at every turn.
Might have pulled the bullets and squirted glue into the loose powder before finger-seating the bullets.

After his pronouncements on the 404/.458 SH, Doc M said:

With that said, I want to take you “Back In Time”, to a day when CNC bullets were in their infancy and we did not have a full understanding of how things worked just yet……….. And, this is directly connected to the tests with the Hammers above……….

This is one of our very early attempts at getting a proper .500 caliber bullet for buffalo. These bullets were made by David Fricke (Early Lehigh Beginnings) at my request through JD at the time. Very nice Copper, RN Hollow Point. This test was conducted in 2009, and I also used this bullet on a bunch of Australian Buffalo in 2009 with our very own Paul Truccolo. It was also the very first outing for the 500 MDM. I used this 470 gr Bullet, backed up with the 510 Solids. I had very serious concerns about the low SD and if these bullets were going to get me in a bind for penetration…..??? I mean a 470 gr .500 caliber bullet, SD of only .269 and everyone knows you have to have a minimum of .300 SD for buffalo, Right?…… :unsure: ……….. Well, test works showed pretty good? Should I trust the Test? Crap?????

After just slamming hell out of the first buffalo, bullets exiting right, left, front and ass, all those concerns about SD and penetration and effectiveness floated away like smoke floating in the air…………..After slamming another 13 buffalo with the 500 MDM and the results the same, we began to understand…………………..

Tell me Guys……. Does this look even vaguely familiar to anything you might have seen “Lately”……………. :unsure:



And another test using our new at the time Witness Cards (I am sure Ron Remembers these)………



Pay attention to where the “Petals” were found…………Take note of the “rounded edge” of the remaining bullet, although found nose forward with these, possibly a function of caliber? I don’t know…..but anyway….

Yep, Been there, got the T-Shirt…… This ain’t my first Rodeo……… LOL

A further response to Sir Larry by Sir "Doc M" Michael:

Yeah, I suppose this would just put you completely over the edge of Sanity………. HEH HEH……….





And the list of things that this has put in the dirt DRT is LONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG………………………

More from Sir "Doc M" Michael 's back and forth at B&M Forum:

Expanding, Trauma Inflicting, NonCon, Raptors, Hammers, what have you…………

Lets take the example of 400 Swift or North Fork, or Premium Expanding bullet and look at Sectional Density
Lets also take the example of our Recent 400 Hammer and look at Sectional Density…..

Wait a minute both have the same Sectional Density…… .272 Right?

Yes, But what happens AFTER Terminal Penetration Starts?

Sectional Density Changes…….. After 2 inches or so of penetration, all these bullets (not solids) change SD, they Expand, and or shear blades and or petals…… SD is changing…………..

400 Expanding Premium may expand to a diameter of .750….. it will still weigh 400 gr however, if it holds together, Swift and North Fork will.

Now the SD of that bullet is .102

The Hammer, sheds petals and is now a 220 gr .458 caliber solid…… it now has an SD of .150

SD changes with Trauma Inflicting bullets and or Expanding Premiums During Terminal Penetration……………..

My comments from the peanut gallery:

Brilliant illustration by Doc M.
Static sectional density does not mean a thing when a bullet is stationary.
It matters when it is flying through the air because its product with a form factor = BC.
It matters at getting a conventional bullet to expand on impact as it drives expansion.
After impact Static SD is gone for an expanding bullet,
replaced by Dynamic SD inside the impact medium.
Then new rules apply, mainly nose shape and retained velocity rules,
not so much emphasis on retained weight of the shank.
And boy oh boy do those light FN solids at high velocity prove that !

Sir Ron, I like the fact that the petals go with the shank. Micheal458 and Sam like the Raptors where the petals radiate outward. What is your preference?

I've contacted Hornady several times for such a bullet in 400gr spitzer/.458 with the RP nose, similar to their 286gr in 9.3 mm.

No response yet! I'm thinking they believe their 350gr RN and FP are adequate. But they are too short and blunt for adequate effect on large game beyond 200 - 250 yards. I would like to see something from Hornady, as the largest supplier in these parts import a lot from Hornady - in fact more than from any other US bullet manufacturer. In any shop one can find Hornady bullets. Barnes would be second. But the TSX's and Noslers are becoming almost prohibitive in costs for the average handloader!

Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob,
WRT your statement that .458 350 grain bullets are too short and blunt for big game beyond 200-250 yards, do you also apply this to the North Fork 350 SS bullets?
Have you seen or tested these NF 350 SS bullets? If not, take a look: https://www.northforkbullets.com/Our-bullets/Bullet-type/

Asking for a friend.

Does he have NF bullets of 350gr/.458 in hand?

My concern was regarding the 350gr RN and FP from Hornady with their very poor shape for ranges beyond about 200 - 250 yards. Their BCs are .189 (RN) and .195 (FP) which means they lose over 700 fps within the first 150 yards!! When started at 2500 fps they are around 1350 fps at 300 yards - not close enough for any expansion! Some tests in media by Michael McCourry show no expansion at 1600 fps, but starting expansion at 1800 fps, which would be around 150 yards when started at 2500 fps MV.

I was looking for something in 400gr with a spire/spitzer nose and a BC of about .400. We now have that in the 404 Hammer bullet, but those are very costly and will not be available in Canada for some time - if ever! Hornady bullets are common here, but Hornady doesn't make a 400gr SPRP in .458.

On the NF site they show three 350gr in .458 without any details of BC. So I have to assume a couple are solids (CPS and FP), and the other a semi-spitzer soft-point. The latter would be my choice of those for general hunting. But, I expect the 350 TSX to work as well - which I have in stock.

My response was to the poster who suggested a common cup-n- core in 400gr from Hornady, Speer or Sierra might satisfy a need for such a bullet in North America. What is the BC of that 350gr NF SS? When the 350 TSX is started at 2780 fps from my Ruger #1H, it's barely making 1600 fps at 400 yards - is that enough for expansion? I don't know. But on a black bear hit frontally at an impact velocity of about 2450 fps there was no evidence of bullet expansion. That bear went the farthest of any I've killed.


Bob
www.bigbores.ca

Bob asked "Does he have NF bullets of 350gr/.458 in hand?"
Yes, and I do too.

I am shooting them in my 1886 45-90 and will shoot them in my Beretta 45-90 DR when it comes back from gunmaker. The DR was regulated with them.

I have shot them in 45-70 at rifle range and found them accurate at 100 yards. I have not shot them at game at 200+ yards, but I rarely shoot any game at that range with any rifle. With my .308, I shot a Mule deer at 300 yards and a white tail at 400 yards; my only two long shots ever!.

I just thought that you might like to test them at long range for your own use.

Sir John,
I think you have shown the secondary missile effects from photos of game dead by Shock Hammer.
Seems to be working some mayhem.
Maybe it is media dependent with the wetpack of MIB if they are not radiating outward like brass does.
But the brass is brittle by comparison and blows off sooner, when the radial force vector might be greater at shallower depth.
I am not sweating it.
It does the job.
From your post on the "Hammers":
quote=jwp475:
".458 404 grain Shock Hammer. .416 300 grain Shock Hammer and .358 220 grain Hammer Hunter "



... and my comments there:
... that is a nice sample of Hammers, adequate to drive any spike.
The view shows the .416 and .338 hollow point edges are a bit sharp, compared to the .458.
Gives me the idea that a simple chamfering inside the .458 hollow point
might make it more delicate for low velocity expansion.
That would be easy to do with excellent concentricity and only a 0.1 grain weight change at each sharpening..
The "404-g/.458" of 403 grains actual (without the oil in the nose hole) would still be over 402 grains, no sweat.
Petals might blow off sooner and have a greater tendency to radiate at shallower depth like brass.

The copper 404-g/.458 weighs 403 grains and is 1.440" long.
Make it out of brass and it would weigh 394 grains.
My maths tell me that it would need to be lengthened in the full bearing base section below the last PDR band
by only 0.028" to weigh an actual 404 grains.
404-g/.458 "Brass Hammer" BOL = 1.468". LOL

I plan on trying the 404 Shock Hammer at 1700 to 1800 fps first, for low velocity expansion.
If it won't expand at 1500 fps impact with water, will try the chamfer sharpening of the HP edge.

Doc M of MIB has done a priceless service in testing the 404 Shock Hammer.
I do not expect he has anymore interest in the TSX bullets.
But I do !
I will be taking the Iron WaterBoard Buffalo out of pasture to ride again.



First for a calibration run to compare to the MIB score of the 404-g Shock Hammer with high BC.
Then a ride with the 450-gr and 500-gr TSX bullets.
I want to see if the 500-gr TSX goes squirrely,
and see if the 450-gr TSX goes deeper than the Shock Hammer.
Compare it to the 402-gr/.458-cal "90%" retaining Shock Hammer of low BC also.

SirRon
I look forward to your further testing with the Hammer bullet and the TSX. Obviously moose are not Cape or Australian / Asian buffalo. But, I have been very pleased with the 225gr TSX in .338, the 270gr TSX in .375, and the 350gr TSX in .416. Plenty good, plenty dead pretty damn quick, most like near instantly.
I am sure I would have been pleased with the 400gr TSX, particularly if the BC was close to .400. The Hammer 404 fills that void and appears to perform stellar, particularly for my purposes.
I am interested in the 450gr TSX performance and will not be surprised if it does not outperform the 500 grainer.

You bet Men, Speer could make a pointy hot-cor of bonded/fusion type bullet for cheap, a b.c. of .4 would be icing ; ]

LOL, Thanks Sir Ron, maybe he can get the velocity if he has case/mag box length to work with, a throat drilling would be most definitely out of the question i'll bet, i got my contract in the mail yesterday for Buffalo up on The Limpopo, if i dont hear different, there's a big buff up there somewhere that's going to meet a 450gr TSX at 2400+ fps, will be a fun hunt and test, i hired a video guy too, so we'll have some movies to watch.

My bad, "IWBB" pictured above had typo in caption.
I meant to say "IWBE" with three boards per compartment.
That is the Iron WaterBoard Elephant for testing FN solids from a 50 BMG.



I will use IWBE in testing the 500-gr TBSS at +2300 fps MV as per Sir Jerry's load for .458 WM+.
Then, of course, I will cut that bullet down to 400 grains and test it at +2500 fps, in the IWBE,
expecting the 500-gr TBSS to go deeper, I just gots to know by how much.

IWBB with one board per water bucket works for softs.
IWBB with two boards per water bucket works for most FN solids.
Might require IWBE with three boards per water bucket for the .458 WM+ with 500-gr TBSS FN.
And I might eventually get to a .510/570-gr or 600-gr FN solid from my 50 BMG just for fun.

Sir Bob's blog latest installment

http://www.bigbores.ca/

has some great reading regarding advantages of the .458 WM over lesser cartridges,
meaning every other cartridge in the world.
Sprinkled with some interesting load data too, from 250-grainer to 600-grainer.
Light bulbs switched on in my head while I was reading that.
His data is now my data.

This is not to say that all other calibers are useless.
They are just not as useful as the .458 WM.
Even Selous liked a 6.5mm aka .256 or .264, all of which are pretty much same-same.
But he always kept some sort of .45/.46 bore soon as he gave up the 4-bore for nervous condition reasons.



Fanciful imitations of Selous' final .256 Mannlicher and 450 NE combo:









The 404-g/.458-cal Shock Hammer Varmint bullet (or Sheep Hippo Varmint bullet)
makes the two rifle battery obsolete.
Now you only need one rifle.
The Selous Combo might now become a combo of one rifle (.458 WM) and two bullets: 404g/.458 SHV and whatever solid will do the job.

Listened to the state of dis-union address tonight.
Memorable quotes:
"... can't build a wall high enough to keep out a vaccine .."
"... millions of nations ..." are unified in support of Ukraine against Russia.
Applause erupted from Democrats many times during said speech.
Spotted this on the internet after the speech:



It was not a solid speech to say the least.
Speaking of solids, similar to Sir Jerry's "Selous Combo" pairing of the 450-gr TSX to the 500-gr TBSS,
I reckon the 450-gr brass FN is best for coupling with the 404g Shock Hammer





I have no use for the 500-gr Nosler brass FN solid other than to cut it down to 400-grains
That is the bullet best for "wasting" by cutting off the base to make a 400-gr brass FN,